National and/or Labour may or may not like it, but Edward Snowden joined Twitter today :D
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National and/or Labour may or may not like it, but Edward Snowden joined Twitter today :D
Yes, I agree with that. I've never been there, but it looks magical. One end of the islands is not protected, there are rare earth minerals known to be there. Only $165,000 of fish caught there annually now, by my reckoning that would be about 1.65 people's wages. Not a lot to lose. Can't help but suggest it was probably a good idea kickstarted by the Greens or Labour before 2008. Will wait to be informed.
Highly unlikely, none of the residents there have ever been known to vote for Labour or the Greens. I wonder how long it will take for one of the tribes to make claims on it under the Treaty of Waitangi?
Yep Craic, they were great, weren't they? Especially Annie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE82oke8BWM
How about this classic, inspired by a throwaway line from Robert Muldoon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HVogejKx_c
Fran O'Sullivan on the Lochinver deal.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-bu...1+October+2015
That station is just too iconic, and even for National (Bill English), it was a step too far. At least that's one decent decision. I'm glad it wasn't John Key's to make.
Lochinver is a large station but there are others half the size and twice as good from a farming perspective. The Chinese could buy a couple of those without raising too many eyebrows.
New tax laws on overseas property purchases come into effect today.
Apparently Chinese buyers have been largely absent in recent weeks from auctions etc.
Amasing this buying with dodgy money was allowed to continue for so long.
Now Bill English is worried about a housing collapse from the bubble they have created with their record immigration numbers and not reigning in foreign buyers much, much earlier.
I quite agree, Craic. I suspect far too many farming people in NZ have some sort of a connection to Lochinver, it's accessible, and it's always been there.
Steven Joyce is away overseas, sorting out the panda issue. Again, Labour get to score some points. It'll start hurting soon.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA150...panda-pimp.htm
Daytr: Mike Hosking gets slapped on the hand with a wet bus ticket for laying into the waitress at the centre of Pony-tail-gate - on prime-time TV. He used that position to do all he could, to help the PM. Pity he didn't seem to know many of the facts. It's never stopped him before.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment...t-mike-hosking
One really good comment:
Quote:
TV one just continues to make mistakes. Those who think he is a tosser, may snigger at some of his diatribes, but allowing someone like Mike Hosking to have an unbridled 'rant' at the end of each show is just asking for trouble. They are advertising their bias through a right wing mouthpiece and it was bound to bite back. Hosking has been allowed to slander the good name of a young woman who was poorly treated by those who are supposed to be there to support and protect her and it is not the first time he has used this platform for his own ends. This behaviour, which has become commonplace during JK's reign, allows for those in power to deliberately try to sway public opinion - as he himself has done with the flag debate for example - and manipulate and drown out those who do not have an equal voice. Hosking is the wrong person to give this sort of power to, as he will abuse it.
Yeah I saw that Ez. Hosking makes me sick. So much ego, so little conscience.
He'll go too far one day, hopefully this side of 2017.
Have a look at this charting software - every political poll in NZ over the last few years - in a scatter plot and colour coded with references. It's fascinating to see the voting pattern for Labour tighten right down in late 2014 (Crosby-Textor and some kneejerk Labour decisions helped with that), now it's bouncing back. National is on a distinct trend downwards. NZ First is improving, as are the Greens.
http://andrewtzchendata.pythonanywhere.com/polls
Yes, I thought so, the Kermadecs safe haven was Labour policy in 2014. Sometimes, Labour doesn't even need to be in office to get its good policies enacted.
http://thestandard.org.nz/key-pinche...ctuary-policy/
So when is the minister for Corrections going to resign?
More assertions of Serco run prisons out of control, this time the new Wiri prison.
Criminals on home detention regularly freeing themselves of their monitoring devices & complete failure of one of NZs most heinous criminals that managed to run a business from prison & then skip the country! Key continues to standby him! Keys judgment is called into question again and again. Perhaps he could call on an ex cop & his old mate Mike Sabin. After all he appointed him head of the Law & Order select committee when he was under police investigation!
He also has another known dubious character of McCully representing NZs interests overseas. Is it because he knows McCully will do anything? Pay anyone off if need be.
I think Key went to the Seb Blatter school of ethics.
You two have a rather exaggerated view of non events. "Pony tail gate" my eye, doesn't even register in the polls, no harm done and it's all blown over.
In the meantime you must have felt quite sick (I chortled) to see your heroine Helen Clark endorsing John Key's efforts with TPPA! :-)
I assume those digs are pointed at me MVT.
Well actually I didn't see it, so that would be a no.
As neither are the events I referred to I suggest you stick to the script rather than writing your own novella. ;-)
If you think the debacle that is Mt Eden prison & now it seems Wiri is a non event then probably nothing that goes wrong under National is an 'event' according to your perspective.
After all you wrote off Helen Clark whilst the rest of the world holds her in high esteem.
Or putting a minister under police investigation as head of the law & order committee a non event.
Was the resulting bi-election and huge voter flip away from what was a national safe seat to a devastating loss also a non event? LOL
Key has made bad choices and shown poor judgement again and again
I can say as an insider, the problems in the criminal justice system are not, and never were closely related to any political party. The biggest balls up in y thirty years was made by Labour putting two and two together and getting Twenty-two. I haven't got time for the details here as my next race is about to go and there are more important things than politics.
EZ, you'll love this
What Key has achieved in response to Turnbull's praise of him.
http://croakingcassandra.com/2015/09...-think-of-any/
Did you feel that? You just got screwed by your own government. TPPA deal struck, but still no details. But apparently every country is better off....
Yeah right. Fonterra is already saying its not good enough.
Relax, Daytr. I know we 4.5m Kiwis are special but we'll find out the details in due course, along with the other 800m lesser mortals from other countries.
NZ was never going to get "enough" on the dairy front - but it's a start to have concluded a first, albeit limited deal with several important trading partners.
Re TPPA, NBR has the breakdowns on savings by industry. Those who complaint about TPPA not being good enough might just want to read those savings on tariffs alone. Of course those red in the face might still want to see the details so they can complain some more later on.
Yep it's a significant plus over what we would have had if we had stayed out.
I look forward to Jane Kelsey belatedly giving some overdue attention to her students instead of being a full time pointless agitator.
Well I would suggest due course was before an irreversible or an unchangeable deal was signed. But that's just me wanting a transparent democracy.
In the States they will now have 60 days of open debate before perhaps voting to pass it into law.
I love the way they say Kiwis wont be paying anything more for medications because the government will subsidise any increase.
Who do they think funds Pharmac! Our taxes.
Happy to wait for more details as all we have been allowed to hear so far is the spin from those who have a vested interest.
I did hear a comment that the government will no longer be able to veto foreign purchases of land from any of the included countries...
Great!
Perhaps if those who did complain RGR367 kept the government on their toes and helped ensure it wasn't "as bad as it could have been" to quote the Herald.
If it works out well for NZ, great, but our biggest exporter isn't saying that are they.
As the saying goes, the devil will be in the detail.
From the Greens today, they asked people to share it around.
https://www.facebook.com/nzgreenpart...type=2&theater
Jane Kelsey: for MVT.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO151...-tppa-deal.htm
Rodney Hide had an article about Judith Collins recently. He reckons she'd be keen to try for the top job, but his conclusion was that she wouldn't have the numbers... not now anyway.
Look at what a bit of colour can do. OK, I think it's been photoshopped too. But there is that nasty streak in the Nats, can't deny it. Remember this?Quote:
Crusher throwing her hat in the ring
The tom-toms are beating and, as incredible as it may sound, around National Party campfires the leadership of New Zealand’s most popular Prime Minister is being questioned.
…
Key is keen on running up a new flag. Collins wants to stick with our old one. Key is keen on polling. Collins is dismissive. “Sometimes I think you have just got to stand for something,” she wrote in a column contemptuous of present-day vanilla politics.
…
National members naturally wonder why they are winning elections only to implement Labour Party policy, especially when it involves dumping the flag under which Kiwis have fought and died and that has united our country for generations. It is fertile ground on which to sow discontent, especially among diehard supporters.
Collins is setting herself apart. She is the only National MP to have a political brand distinct from the present Key-led party. That’s no mean achievement.
http://liberation.typepad.com/libera...nd-racism.html
National already on the attack blaming Labour for this, that & the other thing re Trade deals.
If they are resorting to blaming a party that has been in power for 7 years & a deal they have negotiated shows how desperate they are.
NZ cannot stop member countries of the TPPA buying property in NZ, however apparently Australia has maintained their rules around foreign investors.
NZ sold to the highest bidder. Just great National.
They were so desperate to get a deal signed they have signed a deal that compromises NZs current ability to govern in the best interests of New Zealanders.
I agree Daytr, that area about foreign ownership looks to be the one we need a lot more detail on, it is just opening the country up for a fire sale anytime the economy dips. There's just not enough investment money floating around in NZ for bigger businesses and properties.
You've read Jane Kelsey's view on the outcome of the TPPA deal. Here's Charles Finny's.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11524659
Are you sure? I guess its normal in a negotiations that you have to give as well as take - and what we've heard so far sounds like that the benefits for NZ are larger than the drawbacks.
Obviously - being excluded from the TPPA would have been quite negative for a minnow like NZ ... and I remember it was Labour which first gave up some of NZ's sovereignty when signing the Free Trade Agreement with China.
So - what really is that bad about it, other that it was not your preferred party negotiating it?
I hear even Helen Clark is supporting the deal ...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/poli...ppa-trade-deal
Funny that - did she just change the party - or is she by now so grown up that she is even able to back the right thing even if it was not Labour negotiating it?
Never mind about the TPPA
John Key has secretly visited Iraq it has been disclosed. It is too early to say but this could be the end of the ISIS threat. Seeing John in his Flak jacket, dark glasses and hands on his hips he looked the part. He may impart his vast military tactical knowledge while there, as apparently he may have watched the Guns of Navarone when he was a youngster. It must make Crosby Textor very proud.
PS: I wonder if he is allowed to keep his NZ Army cap?
""Seeing John in his Flak jacket, dark glasses and hands on his hips he looked the part""
if john doesnt win his fourth term we can look forward to seeing little, winnie and the co green leaders having a shot at an iraqi photo shoot.
little could pull off a really cool soldier look but the other 3 leaders of a 4 way primeministership would struggle.
on another note.... anyone who thinks we can be outside of the TPPA or for that matter
thinks we can or could get a better deal is not looking at what is happening in the real world.
having said that.... it saddens me greatly that the world has found us and uses it economic and political might
to dictate terms over us.
how this changes the future of NZ im not sure, but change is coming and we best adapt to it and try to profit from it.
in the old days weapons were used to secure new things.
but in this modern age.........
Neopole
Nah, Winston would send Ron Mark. Ron has considerable military experience both in NZ and Qatar
Are you sure John stops with just ending the ISIS threat? I guess there are bigger nuts to crack for him in the region while he is there: Russia needs his guidance and help to keep their fighter planes in future out of NATO airspace (maybe a Trimble GPS could help?), the US needs help to avoid bombing raids on civil hospitals (a pair of glasses for the pilots?) ... and the Iraqi soldiers need clear direction what to do when the enemy attacks (No, NO, NO - NOT running away, as they tend to do ....). I am sure John will resolve these minor issues by lunchtime - maybe he could use the rest of the day to teach Assad the haka - wouldn't this be fun?
Sad state of affairs .... instead of sending more than hundred soldiers plus our PM to Iraq to increase the mess, should we better use the money to accept a meaningful number of Syrian refugees who are fleeing from the very war we support in NZ. Yes, I know, we just teach the "good" guys - do we?
I must have been asleep during June this year, when Cameron Slater was caught out trying to get a hacker to bust into "The Standard" website. He paid the money but didn't get the goods (list of contributors and commentators) as it seems to be well protected. Some of the posts must have got up his funder's nose.
http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/thena...#axzz3cElION6D
Bernard Hickey on the TPPA.
http://www.interest.co.nz/property/7...8+October+2015
Bryan Gould has an opinion piece in the Herald, and short form here. Excellent cartoon from Emmerson.
http://thestandard.org.nz/gould-on-the-tpp/
NeopoleII, perhaps the irony has escaped you - National can only properly govern with the help of ACT (one elected MP), United Future (one elected MP) and the Maori Party. That's four parties. It must get confusing, all those different ideas, policies and agendas. Your argument would be that this has worked out fine.
I'd be happier with a straight shooter as the PM.
gee...... elz you got banned....... that is not like you....
regarding national and its partners...... they invited the smaller parties to join them and formed a government.
they could of stepped back and let ALL the minority parties try and form a government.... but...
ALL the smaller parties couldnt make it work.
JK is petty straight compared to the other options.
being a democratic country ..... there is nothing stopping labour, the greens, nz first, and the maori party joining forces and become the new government.
but the said four parties have too many differences.
the fact that the maori party is siding with national should be a wakeup call to all left wing voters.
as i have said many times.... i dont vote national or labour anymore.
and i do believe in mmp.
i also believe that most kiwis are good people and vote for what is right instead of voting from the wallet.
re..... we have a "hard" center right government propped up by a visually left wing party ..... the maori party.
the only good thing i can see from a 4th term of national is that labour will be forced to clean house of its radical leftism and
join the majority of centralist kiwis.
if anything...... this is what your nemesis "textor" has played on.... the left wing fell off the left cliff.
the right wing moved to the center.
all the other parties a swimming around.
i love this country as much as anyone, and am by no means rich, and earn just enough to get by, so policy is important to me
as much as anyone.
hope to see you back soon ELZ
JK is pretty straight? Really! I can think of multiple times he has bare faced lied to the NZ public.
He's one of the great fence sitters I'll give him that.
Another one of his pet projects that will squander millions, on two pandas from China!
Is he losing the plot?
He cuts the budget to our own Conservation Department, implements a disastrous restructure that then gets reversed, wasting more tax payer money & now wants to spend millions a year on two pandas! How about trying to save our own wild life. There are less Maui Dolphins than there are pandas!
That and his ego trip on changing the flag that no one really gives a toss about, other than wasting another $26M!
EZ, Bill did it
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...illion-surplus
Canada have elections next week
Conservatives look like they could be heading to a defeat
EZ, taking a beating because the populous have had enough and showing their resentment of the neo-liberal policies that Harper has been pushing through.to some extent mirrors NZ
EZ, do labour look at how they can learn from such events.A yer or so ago nobody would have believed Harper would struggle to stay in power. Unfortunately for labour though it s not their type of party that causes change
Oh really......ok, if you insist......Not long enough....OOOOh bite your tongue you spiteful wretch. I believe reading somewhere Admin said 3 months..complaining about being severely tested and along the line of..."see how you like that, you dismal specimen of pond scum"
Lets just review what Bill has achieved here.
A technical surplus of $400M.
Whilst core revenue was still in deficit of core expenditure by $200M.
Its no coincidence that there have been claims from various departments of under spending in the lead up to this 'surplus'.
Government debt has increased by another $700M!
There was a substantial uptick in tax revenue for the period, something that Bill has already said wont be repeated & in fact fully expects the tax take to take a substantial hit.
Bill has also said that's it, box ticked, now back to normal operating procedure for the National governments and deliver deficits going forward.
They will have deficits but still deliver election year tax cuts despite knowing there is going t be a hit to government revenue.
That is straight out irresponsible.
There are plenty of ways to increase the tax take by just enforcing the intent of the current laws and closing the loop holes that their support base continually exploit. Also ensuring that international companies play their fair share of tax in NZ.
No surprises here - I guess for some of the one eyed posters here anything a National led is delivering must be bad - whatever it is - right?
Wasn't this the same people whining for years about the National led government writing deficits? Now they are in a surplus, but obviously it is not good enough. Of course - a government composed out of Green / NZF / Mana / Labour would have done so much better, no matter what they would have delivered (if anything) - wouldn't they?
Same with TPPA - Labour actually started the negotiations after making a number of earlier free trade agreements and in this process giving parts of our sovereignty away. Of course - If a Labour led government is doing that, than it must be good.
However given that the TPPA talks have been concluded under a National led government it all must be bad - not according to the "gold standard" some forever left leaning dreamers would have wished for. Keep dreaming ... and keep demonstrating how disingenuous the political Left is these days.
Some Labour politicians are even proposing that they would stay in the TPPA but not regard the terms ... how do you call people doing these things?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/n...ectid=11529206
Shame on them! There used to be a time when (many) of the people of the Green and Left used to be naive, but at least honest - seems like times are changing and they lost the latter attribute.
Poor New Zealand, your opposition parties are a shambles ...
Is there anything untrue in what I posted BP? Its an honest appraisal, much of it quoting Bill English.
We are still yet to see the text of the TPPA. What we have seen is spin that every country is apparently better off.
Ask yourself, how can that be? I would really like to understand how all countries will increase their GDP by signing this agreement.
Anyway lets see when we know the full picture as we still know very little other than the cost of Pharmac will increase & the Government will not be able to prevent any foreign land purchases, however the likes of Australia have retained that sovereign right.
BP, the article from Paul Quinn, is cynical & simplistic. Describing opposition to the TPPA with extremes such as Marxist philosophy is just poor journalism. I for one certainly don't like the fact that NZ will not have any avenue of vetoing foreign land purchases. NZ is a small country & will be at the mercy of large corporations, private equity and the like with huge economic resources. Australia weren't stupid enough to agree to the same folly.
I suggest the TPPA will further National's agenda on the corporatization of government services. National have concentrated on areas where those effected are vulnerable, being prisoners, state housing & mental health. Those without a strong voice to oppose or advocate, let alone publicize what impact these changes are having on these vulnerable members of society. If it wasn't for Kelvin Davis, its unlikely we would even be aware of the complete negligent management of Mt Eden prison by SERCO, something National and the Minister clearly wasn't aware of & its disgraceful that he hasn't either resigned or been sacked.
Sure - lets wait ... seems more sensible than throwing mud at everything which moves ... as long as a "National led government" is involved.
However your comment above (Every country signing that agreement will increase their GDP - how can that be?) is telling. See daytr, while the Left is still stuck in the fight of the classes - with the idea that the people important to them (the Left) can only can survive by taking a bigger piece of the cake away from others (be that the "capitalists", the so called "well off" or just anybody stupid enough to pay taxes) and that way shrinking the cake, the rest of the world did learn that it is a better idea to first grow the cake before distributing it.
Never heard about win-win?
BP, I have certainly had exposure to win/wins as it is how I have always tried to deliver to my clients in the many large transactions I have delivered over the years. All I have heard is a figure saying we will be better off with nothing to back it up. However I do know that Pharmac will cost more & we have given up the right to veto foreign property purchases. Neither of these are wins for NZ. The extension of patents on drugs & IP is hardly extending free trade, in fact quite the opposite. The winners in all this I would suggest will be corporations at the expense of the average citizen.
Hi Sergeant, I note that you have meddled with the quoted text ... though it looks like that your main action was to screw up the content I put into brackets (including the statement you quoted) - Why?
If you look at the original statement in context (i.e. put the brackets back where they belong), than the whole thing might be clearer ... though admittedly - irony is a difficult thing to convey ... particularly in writing
What I tried to convey is that net tax payers (i.e. people paying more taxes than they receive benefits) must feel stupid if we see how they are treated by the Left ... not just milked by the system anyway, but consistently exposed to the marvellous and ingenious ideas of any budding Left-wing politician: "oh, just lets increase the taxes of the performers so that we can transfer still more money through an inefficient bureaucracy to the non performers".
BTW - I consider myself as one of these people (paying more taxes than receiving benefits) ... and so it was all my life. No intention to offend or harm honest tax payers ...
Does this help?
Wasn't it National that increased GST BP? I would prefer to see a government managing its finances responsibly and reducing debt rather than committing to election bribes in 2017 whilst continually increasing debt. No doubt it will be left to another government to yet again fix what mess National leave behind. In less than 10 years government debt has more than tripled. This will be John Key's legacy.
Wasn't it Labour that introduced GST daytr?
Not sure whether I get your point ... given that the state clearly has a role to play (even if we both might disagree on how big this role should be), there is obviously a need for (some) taxes to fund this role. Personally would I think that GST is a much fairer tax (i.e. everybody paying according to their consumption) than the envy taxes left governments love to introduce ... to redistribute wealth from performers to non performers ...
And talking about your story about our government debt looking bad - daytr, you sound like a broken record on this subject. Did you take over from EZ?
Which part of "New Zealand's government debt (as percentage of GDP) is quite low compared to other countries" do you not understand?
Here are some examples of public debt vs GDP (all 2012 data, the newest I could find):
Australia: 29.3%
New Zealand: 41.8%
US: 72.5% (would be still higher, if US would use the same measure to acknowledge public debt)
Canada: 84.1%
UK: 90%
NZ does not look too bad in this list - doesn't it? Just remind me - who is responsible for running it? :p
I'm not the one who's a broken record its National who keep playing the same tune. Do they really think its Money for nothing....
If they didn't keep on borrowing I wouldn't have to keep on about it.
What was that debt to GDP ratio under Labour ? Half what it is now?
What are you waiting for?
For us to be as bad as those other countries you mention before you wake up?
This debt increase is despite selling billions of dollars of assets, so in reality its net a lot higher without those proceeds.
So BP, are you an advocate of cutting taxes even if it means it will generate deficits and more government debt?
Yawn! One covers all this in Economics I, I recommend you do it.
Firstly, if you have a look at who owns all the Public Debt you'll find that most of it is owned by public agencies such as ACC and KiwiSaver, Superannuation Funds (both NZ and overseas), Insurance Companies, investors that want a good spread of investments including some in a vehicle that would not go bankrupt.
Secondly, public debt is an essential part of a modern well structured economy. The Reserve Bank and Government can operate in it to promote their monetary and economic policy - issue more debt to soak up excess liquidity, buy up debt to stimulate the economy.
If there was no public debt we would be a much smaller very old fashioned economy with a much lower standard od living. Update yourself DayTr.
I really do wonder where you got your economics degree MVT. Was it Kelloggs or Sanitarium university?
I am referring to Government debt, not liabilities such as ACCC. Do you really think Kiwi Saver has debt?
Or that Super Funds have debt? Were you sober when posting?
Core government debt has more than trebled through government spending whilst revenue has been in deficit.
Your economics 101 is certainly different to the rest of the world's.
I'm not sure how long you can keep up this act of claiming to be an economist, as for about the 10th time in a row you have displayed a complete lack of understanding.
Anyway MVT, I hope you enjoyed the rugby.
The French have obviously been learning from English (see what I did there. :cool:) on how to post a deficit. Sacre bleu !
This "discussion" seems to be going at cross purposes!
Just for starters, MvT's point about Kiwisaver and debt refers to the govt - issued debt held in Kiwisaver accounts on behalf of members. Unless I'm also chasing off on a further tangent!
;)
Correct it has & I did misunderstand his post. However justifying an exploding debt situation just so the likes of Kiwi saver have instruments to invest in is hardly justification for continual borrowing and more than trebling gov't debt.
Harper and the Conservatives under pressure in Canada election. Could well lose
I can see Key sounding off like in 2 years time. Harper at a rally as reported -
Harper’s short speech was characterised by heavy leaning on the word “protect”, but he stuck largely to economic themes.
“It is all about protecting jobs, protecting hardworking families, protecting local businesses,” he began. “We all know that were part of a very unstable global economy … a vote for [the Conservatives] is a vote to protect our jobs.”
He said he wanted to talk about “what Canadians would lose, would risk, if the Liberals form a government”.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...inal-poll-push
Neo-Libs getting their comeuppance with the populous showing their resentment of such policies. Good to see
(be that the "capitalists", the so called "well off" or just anybody stupid enough to pay taxes) and that way shrinking the cake, the rest of the world did learn that it is a better idea to first grow the cake before distributing it.
I think you are being ingenuous in your reply to Sgt. Pepper. Classes, inefficient bureaucracy, performers and non performers. Seems like the usual far right attempt to put down the upstarts from the left who do not believe in survival of the fittest.
Given that you infer the left do not pay taxes but hold their collective hands out for more of the cake, growing the cake seems like a good idea but when one reads that half of the worlds assets are held by just 1% of the population, perhaps one could be forgiven for thinking ( erroneously of course :) ) you have no intention of decreasing your share having paid more tax than you have received in benefits.
As for the TTPA I cannot decide whether it is better to be a poor State of the USA or a peasant in a Chinese Province but I guess we will find out one day as the country is sold off with the secret deal National has negotiated.
westerly
I see that John Key really gave Malcolm Turnbull a bollocking over the detention of New Zealanders in Australia. Poor Malcolm Turnbull, I mean John really turned on the heat, he made his case and bravely went into battle for us, second after second he bravely fought, unfortunately for no result.
I suspect the exchange was more like
John Key: excuse me sir, I am sorry to have to
ask, but would you possibly consider changing your policy just a wee bit
Malcolm Turnbull: NO, now piss off.
Oh well, thinks John, I did try
It is detention of people with serious criminal convictions for crimes committed while living in Australia on special Visas.
I think Australia is well within its rights to deal with them as they see fit, whether Kiwis or not,as long as they meet normal human rights standards.
From up here on the Murray River it was interesting to read the Australian side of the detention argument. All they refer to is the legal right to throw out non-citizens who cannot conform to the laws - not a word anywhere about the detention on Christmas Island or other places. And asking if anyone knew the football result (Blacks versus French) caused total confusion because "football" is AFL and the season has finished and Rugby is a place in England.
That in a lot of cases is quite incorrect. What special visas are you referring to? My understanding is that applies to anyone that has been given a sentence of just over one year, who isn't an Australian citizen, which could be from multiple minor offences.
The fact these people are being sent to detention centers, quite often thousands of miles away from family and support before being deported is something that Britain did to colonize Australia two hundred years ago! Its not just Kiwis obviously either. Australia's record of in regards detention centers for all people detained is deplorable. In the Howard era they refused entry by the Red Cross which goes against UN convention. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I haven't heard that its changed. Children in detention, families separated and detained for years on end, quite often in very harsh conditions out of the eye of media scrutiny. For a first world country to act this way is shameful.
By the way I like Malcolm Turnbull, but this is not a great start. Key, well he is just pathetic.
What is quote incorrect about it Daytr ? Are they not all convicted criminals ? None of them are Australian citizens so all have some sort of Visa or authorisation to stay in Australia and have committed serious crimes while doing so.
Labour with Kelvin Davis making a fool of himself are yet again barking up the wrong tree
Don't shed any tears for them. All they have to do is say the word to the authorities and they're on the plane to NZ into the loving arms of their extended whanau where they will be free to do drug dealing, bashing, raping, stealing, domestic abuse until the NZ law catches up with them.
Major
You could argue that some of the NZers caught up in this situation may have been let down by their families. When leaving for Australia prior to 2002 they could/should have availed themselves to applying for Australian citizenship, compared to now a relatively straight forward process back them. It would not have compromised their New Zealand citizenship as we permit dual citizenship. Many kiwis leaving to work and reside in Australia have had a false sense of security. Only when things go wrong, e.g. their children enrol for tertiary courses, (non citizens must pay full fees) become unemployed(not entitled to any benefits) etc do they realise the full impact of not being a citizen.
Are you saying that there are still people who don't know that Kiwis in Australia are treated as second class people? Don't they read newspapers? Do they have no access to social media in Australia? It is not difficult to find out that while Kiwis have in Australia the duty to pay full taxes, they are not entitled to most of the benefits (including the "benefit" to stay in Australia"), if the realm of Aussie so chooses at their whim.
Australia is happy to suck Kiwis out (take their work and taxes) and than spit them back across the ditch ... but given that everybody knows the rules as well as the Australian attitude, is it obviously easy to avoid for the individual. Maldoon said once that Kiwis emigrating to Australia improve the average intelligence in both countries. Maybe though, the Aussies are just better in hiding there brains ...
The only thing I don't understand is why we don't reciproke the Australian treatment: trim the benefits for Aussies in NZ and kick them out if they misbehave ... - and focus our politicians again on solving our issues instead of whinging about the "unfair" treatment of Kiwi criminals in Australia. Is this really our biggest concern?
BP
Good point about why doesn't NZ reciprocate. Its intriguing. There doesn,t seem any desire on the part of JK to address this
I see the Canadian election looks set to throw out Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. John Key seems to be quite close to Stephen Harper and no doubt will be privately very disappointed with the outcome. A portent for things to come here I think.
I state my proposition again
There is a high probability John Key will announce his resignation in late 2016/early 2017.
All countries tailor their immigration policies to their needs. Aust needed Kiwi immigrants for their mining jobs - amongst others - once, now they don't and are tightening accordingly. NZ still, apparently, needs certain skilled/qualified immigrants and hasn't yet reassessed the need. I expect that this will happen.
As an aside, there seems to be a widespread lack of understanding that Australia is a separate country from NZ. We don't expect any other nation to treat us as "one of them"!
As has been said before, those NZers in detention are there only because they have appealed their deportation. But they can leave right away and continue their appeal from NZ. It was reported that around 30% of appeals are successful. Probably not too many of those are serious criminals though. But still, it is voluntary detention is it not?
Of course incarceration is also voluntary. I read recently that in NZ people appear on average 11 times before they are sent to prison. May be different in Australia.
Well they aren't all serious crimes, sometimes they are multiple minor crimes. You also mentioned around human rights. These people as others detained are being transported thousands of miles away interstate etc and being 'detained'. They aren't on special visas they are on the standard visa that all Kiwis go over on & many don't get citizenship. Kelvin Davis has not made a fool of himself at all and it appears many agree with him. I'm not saying & neither is he if the person's 'home' is basically NZ then it makes sense to send them back here, but the blanket approach is poorly thought out & gives no consideration to circumstance. I was also referring to detention generally in Australia which is shameful. They just denied access by one of their own MPs to visit one of the centres and as I said have also denied access by the Red Cross. There are kids, and families separated & 'detained' in quite harsh conditions for years on end.
So there was quite a bit incorrect in regards your post
"John Key seems to be quite close to Stephen Harper". Come again? No one else has ever observed that. My son and family live in Montreal and I have been over there....the news media silence re Stephen Harper and John Key is absolutely deafening.
The marker for John Key in John Key's mind is not Helen Clark but Keith Holyoake who won 4 elections in a row for National - 1960-1969. JK naturally wants to create a new record, a new marker.
So I state my more logical proposition again
[B] There is a high probability John Key will announce his resignation in late 2022/early 2023.
Think also Menzies of Australia. Relax Pepper, you fret too much.
(PS You need to have a rethink about the Canadian result means in the light of Canadian history and politics. So far with nearly all the results declared only 4 parties have seats. In Canada the Liberals were the old traditional governing party (think Pierre Trudeau and further back), the Conservatives were the old traditional opposition party, the New Democratic Party are a newish left of centre party, the Bloc Quebecois are a regional party irrelevant to the national scene and then there is the Green Party. The Liberal Party has 174 seats, a return to the old traditional slightly right of centre party of government, the Conservatives have 95 seats, the left wingers have just 32, the Bloc Quebecois just 8 and the Greens just 1. So the NPD and Greens have failed to penetrate. JK and National would relate more easily to Liberal of all those parties. Its another defeat for the Left.)
John Key #48 on some 'sexy leaders' list
Just ahead of Angela Merkel whose #54
Major
you really do have to brush up on your 2oth century history. The Canandian New Democrsts are not a "newish left of centre party" they have been around for 54 years, and have held power in some of the Provincial Governments. As for " another defeat for the left" Well I know the prospect of not having John Key in power after 2017 fills you with dread but just take a deep breath and embrace the future. John Key really wont care you know, he will be in some diplomatic posting somewhere and holidaying in Hawaii.
As for Judith Collins, Paula Bennett, Michael Woodhouse etc, they will be privately delighted and will waive him off at the airport with lots of insincere regret at his departure.
What did happen to el Zorro?
EZ got nuked, for this http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthr...l=1#post593551
Yes, they're called Labour voters.
Shame about EZ, he certainly helped lift the tone of this thread.
I see NZs environmental report card was a shocker. This government doesn't give a toss about NZs flora a fauna.
Cuts budgets to things like DOC but wants to spend 10s of millions on two pandas!
Meanwhile a massive number of our own native species face extinction or endangered.
Water quality continues to deteriorate and emissions have grown substantially.
We don't even measure the output of coal powered dairy factories !
National's record in regards the environment is a disgrace.
Tell that to the Huntly coalminers who lost their jobs last week. Or maybe the few thousand Australian who will pay $A32 to visit Adelaide Zoo this week just because there are two Pandas there and this is mating time. My water comes off the rooves of house and sheds through a pile leaves, possum droppings, bird droppings and maybe some rat droppings into a tank and on to the house unfiltered. We drink it and remain healthy but not as healthy as my dog and you should see what he drinks, and eats. Only ten percent of the extinct plants and animals became extinct since man appeared on the planet - the rest were gone before we arrived.
Tell what to the Huntly coal miners Craic ?
Despite what you choose to drink which comes from rain water, the quality of the water in our rivers & oceans is deteriorating and concentrations of nitrates and the like is continually increasing and so is the impact. Perhaps we should just continue to let that happen until the industries that rely on the very water sources they are degrading are impacted.
Re your comment on species extinction rates, you could google tat and their are numerous charts that display the rapid increase of extinction rates in the last 100 years due to population expansion. The chart looks like a plane taking off, actually very similar to a chart of NZ government debt since National got in power. ;-)
But by all means waste money on two pandas, whilst our own native wildlife suffers.
Conspiracy stuff eh...
There are 2 major disadvantages to smoking marijuana/cannabis which are not mentioned by cannabis lovers/MSM (main stream media).
1. Smoking marijuana is substantially more carcinogenic (cancer causing) than smoking cigarettes.
2. Marijuana smokers develop incipient schizophrenia...a tendency to see conspiracies everywhere is par for the course...(say no more, know what you mean - taps side of nose knowingly...).
A good article in NBR discussing the bleating of Kiwis in Australia and the Left here in NZ, including some on this thread: http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/key-was...al-expat-kiwis
Why stay and whinge in Australia when you can emigrate back to NZ?
Just a bit more time with Global Warming and the planes from Australia will be full of Climate Change refugees as the heat waves proliferate and intensify.
I could go and live in Australia without having to worry about welfare benefits, health benefits, superannuation benefits.
But I don't because I enjoy NZ much more and I really hate heat waves even with air conditioned houses. You are turned into a prisoner in your own house!
Iceman, the laws being used to deport ex convicts (anyone else see the irony in Australia doing this!) were implemented to counter terrorism not to detain people on offshore Islands thousands of miles away from their families, legal representation and without charge. This is a misuse of the law as it was intended. It's another example why governments shouldn't be given over reaching powers as they are bound to abuse it as in this case. Interesting though that the NBR publishing an article saying that Key is losing his political clout.
Those Northland voters have a lot to answer for. :cool:
"Detained"? "Detained"?
Oh, ha! ha! ha! ho! ho! ho! That's rich, that's a good one!
How can you be detained when you have the immediate option of using 7 words "I want to go back to NZ!"
If you were detained in say North Korea or by ISIS or Boko Harum you would be detained properly! They know how to do detentions.
If they have "close" family there then you immediately have a litmus test of how "close" close is.!
i.e. do they follow said murderer, rapist, drug dealer, wife basher back to NZ? And if they don't who could blame them....
Exactly MVT. All the Kiwis are there by choice because they want to mount a challenge to the deportation order from Australia. They are all free to return to NZ and could lodge their case from here if they wanted to.
Guys what are these centers called? Detainment centers. Quite simple really.
Why are they based in goodness knows where, out of way, out of sight out of mind.
Media get denied access, the Red Cross get denied access.
If someone has been a short term resident etc and been convicted, I understand sending them back to NZ.
However when someone has spent the majority of their life in Australia and their family & support is in Australia, then what does sending them back to NZ achieve?
If they need to detain them, why can't they do so in the State where they live so family & legal support has access to them.
These people have served their time. If they had applied for an Aussie passport they would be back in the community.
The fact that these people are choosing detainment over deportation suggests to me that they have a very good reason to be wanting to stay there. More than likely support to either find a job or that's where their family lives, kids go to school etc.
But lets up-root them send them back here, where perhaps they have none of that.
What do you think is going to happen in many cases if that happens?
Hi Craic, I wanted to get back to you on this as because the statement below does not give an accurate picture of what is happening with species decline. A chart below gives you a much better idea of the rapid increase in extinction rates.
Here are also a couple of articles that I hope you & others read that I think you will find alarming.
One thing I think goes against the Green movement in regards climate change & things like species rapid decline, is that its quite depressing reading.
And I think many would rather deny what's going on than face the ugly reality.
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/p...nction_crisis/
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ed-extinction/
The clearance of rain forest in Indonesia at levels like never before.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ry-world-media
\http://www.whole-systems.org/Resources/Image10.gif
[QUOTE Only ten percent of the extinct plants and animals became extinct since man appeared on the planet - the rest were gone before we arrived.[/QUOTE]