These are just too similar - and all written off
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These are just too similar - and all written off
Attachment 7964
and more
Attachment 7965
So names given in comments are
Laura
Kurt
Christina
Cristie
Courtney
Emily
Natalee
So does this mean that the borrower managed to produce documentation and ID for all of these names? Or does it mean that harmoney does not check to see if the comments contain majorly incorrect and blatantly FALSE information
laura
kurt :)
Christina
Cristie
LAI-00052943
Courtney
Natalee
@Monica, I'd also be interested to know about loan 53460.
For those lucky enough not to have this loan, it has also been written-off only a couple of months after being issued, although they did make one payment, so perhaps not part of the fraud that has been mentioned. But still concerning that a loan can be written-off so quickly, it suggests to me that something a bit strange has happened.
No matter the cause of these write-offs, is it surprising they have been written-off? Does it suggest the person involved is not even in NZ, as if they were local and had been tracked down I would have thought there is some potential for getting some money back. It also makes me wonder about the processes used by Harmoney to verify the identity from NZ drivers license or passport, confirm their bank account exists, credit checks, income etc.
LAI-00053297 is one from around the same time. no payments as yet. Not written off yet though.
Grade F and Grade E notes, even with their high interest rates, are not for the faint hearted, no matter how good the credit check system. At least if you are investing in the notes through a business, you should be able to deduct the write-offs from taxable income. It will be interesting to see the next statistics release to see if the write-off rate is still tracking under Harmoney's original predictions.
These are fraud cases and to put it into perspective, represents just 0.10% of all loans written to date. Being a financial institutional, fraud is a reality for all financial institutions and this is an exceptional results by industry standards. These frauds have also impacted banks, other financial institutions. In all fraud attempts, we have made it our mission to ensure that the people involved have been reported to the Police and are being followed up.
This is also a mere fraction of the number of fraud attempts which we have caught before they have completed the process and we continue to monitor and improve our results in this area.
While we have a thorough and robust identity verification process to guard against these types of cases, there remains a possibility that borrowers may be fraudulent, with no intent to repay. The fraud is generally a full identity theft, in which case the person receiving the money has misappropriated the details of the person whose full identity has been used to apply for the personal loan.
So Can you please confirm/clarify a few things
How many loans were effected by this particular fraud case (is the 9 I have been hit with all of them - or are there more)
Do the 1st Names given in the comments match the names that the loans were applied for under?
Hi Harmoney
I've been trying to reconcile my Mar stmt, but it's not balancing. When I investigate it I find that a transaction in the Feb stmt has been removed in the Mar stmt. This is for loan 53503. Investment made 22 Jan, pymt rcvd 26 Feb (in Feb stmt), two pymts rcvd 19 Mar for the entire loan amount, and it currently shows as cancelled in the reports. Can you explain?
An interesting article on P2P just landed at interest.co.nz today >
http://www.interest.co.nz/business/8...ulatory-regime
This fraud thing - rather funny and somewhat ironic to me.
I FAILED the identity test to become an investor.
Thought rather funny and when they said try again I told them to get stuffed
These days there are SO Many Re-Writes to Invest in I am strictly ONLY Investing in Re-Writes. I look primarily for the Loans over 30K as there is minimal chance of another Re-Write!
I have requested from HM Stats on how many Re-Writes are going on to be Re-Writes for a 2nd time.
At the time of asking I was informed so far this was about 10 Re-Written loans that had then been Re-Re-Written!
Also that they are collecting these Stats currently for release at some point.
Stats out of interest for those that care.
$57000 over 2521 active loans over 3363 loans in total.
Most loans i take are $25 alotments towards the higher end of risk curve - in the early days of harmoney there wasnt enough loans to be picky.
Ive suffered $1575.04 charge offs over 65 loans (including the above frauds).
11.80% return after tax according to excel XIRR function. or 15.30% platform rar last time calculated 21/03/2016.
My investment strategy has been lots of high risk loans but diversified over many loans.
I figure you need a certain size of loan book to get the diversfication and the advantage of componding the investment as returns come in daily. Ie no waiting with funds sitting in my account.
I see the rewrites as an advantage as it offers a way for the investor to get his money out quicker - so there is some advantage.
Got any ratio of your risk grade loans issued?
Mine is:
20% A
30% B
15% C
15% D
15% E
5% F
Around 350 loans 11% RAR after tax and fees. 14% HM RAR
Got Defaulted on by 2 F grades.. To be expected, I would heavily avoid or take caution with these grades
I failed my investor application too, back in the day, just hang in there.. I had to re-send my ID scans. Just email them, they'll help you out
Approx according to their graph (investment spread)
A 6%
B 16%
C 18%
D 24%
E 23%
F 12%
There were 9 loans in total in this case. They were all full ID take overs from stolen ID's (which means all personal details match) generally acquired through breaking and entering. It appears to be a sophisticated fraud ring and this matter is now with Police who were interviewing the suspects on Friday.
The borrower returned the loan funds during the cooling off period (the borrower has 7 days to cancel the loan) but an error meant the account was not cancelled until March (almost 2 months later). As the cancellation was effective Jan it means that the loan would have been on your Feb transaction statement, but not your March. Your transaction statement shows all cash and principal transactions from the commencement of your account. Late reversals or other adjusted transactions may cause the end of month balance to vary from one month to the next.
Thx Dan
Have I got this right, 1) Harmoney didn't record the cancellation when it should have, 2) Harmoney recorded receipt of a payment (Feb) from the borrower that it didn't actually receive (or did the borrower actually make the payment), 3) Harmoney had my money for almost two months without returning it to me, 4) Harmoney retrospectively changes transactions rather than adding a correcting transaction on the date errors are fixed.
What compensation is Harmoney paying to investors in this loan for the almost two months they didn't have access to their money?
This comment on loan 61342 made me chuckle "...the good thing with Harmoney is they are willing to reduce my rate as long as I can show my loan history is excellent with them over then next 3-6 months.". I won't be investing as either the borrower will fail to make the repayments or it will be re-drawn in a few months with the associated fees.
I now avoid lending to any rewrite for this very reason.
I would have thought you want re-writes as they have shown a good payment history, and re-writen the loan to get a better rate which they will lock in for the term. its those that haven't been re-writen that you have to be careful of as they will be going for a re-write as soon as they can show good payment history as that will secure them a better rate.
Trying to predict those that wont make a payment is impossible in my view.
Just had another charge off - I am getting absolutely killed at the moment. At this rate, Squirrel with a 8.5% and a guarantee is starting to look good.
Always happy to provide more detail. When something like this happens the borrower payment is backdated otherwise there would be interest accrued and owed on the borrower account when this is actually a cancellation in the cooling off period.
In the investors statement we show the cash movement. That means the funds being deployed to the loan on 21/1 and then the cash being returned and principal reduced on 19/3.
This was an edge case and since my last update we have been working automating the fix which should prevent further issues like what was picked up happened here. We have processed over 5 million transactions to date and have had a low number of processing issues. While understandably frustrating be assured our focus is on reducing issues like this happening again to minimise the impact on lenders and borrowers. If you have any further questions I am happy for you to contact me directly at dan@harmoney.co.nz
Dan \ Monica,
Do you have an ETA for delivery of the End of Financial Year Tax Certificates yet?
I totally agree, which is why I am surprised that Harmoney thinks that repayment history during the first months can be a good predictor of future defaults (except for cases of fraud where the borrower had no intent to repay anything from the get go).
According to the statistics (https://www.harmoney.co.nz/assets/Pe...loss-march.png), default rate remains very close to zero during the first 5 months, then takes off (note the discrepancy with Harmony's model, which doesn't predict this flat start on the curve).
What is certain however is that Harmoney has a vested interest in encouraging rewrites (by reducing the borrower's rate). Investors end up paying fees multiple times and with an underestimated default rate.
Dan \ Monica,
Is Harmoney working on an Android Mobile Phone App at all yet??
I use the harmoney site ALOT from android devices both cellphones and tablets And it works well - but there are tricks to make is work well.
1) I install and use Chrome Browser
2) the default mobile site is a pain to use -instead use the "request desktop site" feature from the menu and use the full site. On the tablet its just like using in on a desktop. On the cell phone i do zoom in and out a bit but again it works just link the normal desktop site
My cash available has gone down twice in the past two days and I haven't used any of the money for notes... anyone know why this is happening? Both money available and interest have decreased (by $2 or so)
There was an rwt correction last night to fix some investors they hadn't correctly taken rwt from for an 8 day period. My rwt was out by a couple of dollars. It is now correct. I suspect they did it twice because the amount out changed a couple of days ago and then again last night.
Article sourcing this thread re fraud (behind paywall):
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/harmone...ud-th-p-187601
The fraud can't be all that "sophisticated" if the fraudsters are getting caught, unless the frauds are so sophisticated that there is a lot more fraud going on, than is claimed to be known.
So as unsecured lenders to a platform that has been subject to fraud, do you get your 'written off loans' back? And, it is reported as ID theft to enable the fraud, do you get your ID back from the fraudster, or how can you be sure your ID details haven't been sold or used elsewhere? Hmm.
Hopefully Harmoney come out with a full and frank disclosure. This may also be a warning shot across the bows for other platforms as well.
I've just been smashed with charge offs this month. Far worse than any other month since I started a year ago.
Stuff posting about the fraud now. http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/indust...audulent-loans
I note Neil Roberts quote ""In all 26 cases, the New Zealand Police were notified. In every case, arrests were made and charges laid. All cases have been before the courts...". In light of this I find it interesting that these particular loans have been written-off. Does that mean the money has gone offshore to somewhere it can't be recovered from? I hope the people will be bankrupted, if they aren't already, just a shame that there is no money to recover. Also surprising/impressive that Harmoney already know there is nothing to recover.
Have any investors in these loans received an email from Harmoney about it? I haven't seen anything within the website. I'm a bit disappointed with the lack of communication/openness from Harmoney.
Am I being a bit negative about Harmoney? Or are they bringing it on themselves?
I would be curious if anyone with lots of write-off notice a pattern of more frequent rewritten loans among them. I see lots of rewrites being allowed to double their borrowed amount after as low as 4 successful payments (when almost all write-offs will happen past the 6 months mark).
I've just had my first rewritten type loan charged off.. ... Loan 32550 which showed 6 successful payments when i invested into it ... now I've tried to get info from HM if that is infact 6 months of successful on time payments or JUST 6 successful payments .. Huge difference in my view, as yet, have not had any confirmation either way! I felt it was a question that was being avoided.
Saw this loan which the borrower has $20,000 income a month (after tax!) yet they're borrowing $25,000 to go to the dentist!!
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I am losing trust in their system these days with all this fraud, rewrites and write-offs. Yesterday I got an A5 loan written off! I do understand the risk of P2P lending but feel Harmoney could do better with investor communication, and looking into loans that seem ridiculous like the one above.
The A5 loan I had written off was LAI-00011174
Maybe Dan@Harmoney can provide more detail on why this was written off? I can see that you've been online very recently!
Feel like taking money out of the platform if things don't improve
It's not that bad though. They've been quite good so far in answering us (ping Dan@Harmoney).
I'm seeing a lot of "Holiday expenses" loans today, I would have thought that was a bit out of season?
MVA
Hi, You can contact me directly at dan@harmoney.co.nz if you want to communicate about a specific loan. Thanks
RAR has been updated. 15.37% for me, up on last month.
Mine 12.99%, down from just under 16%!
14.67% according to harmoney rar.
However why not just calculate your self by using google docs.
That way you can have the tax paid number which 11.65% in my case.
Create a google sheet.
One column the date you made deposit to harmoney and amount as negative number.
=now() is excel function for todays date
grab the details from harmoneys account balance screen and use the forumula below xirr.
27/01/2015 -800 29/01/2015 -800 =XIRR(b1:b3,a1:B3)
=now() cash+fundingbalance+outstandintprincial from harmoney account postion page
gives you a compounding interest rate taking into account variable deposits over time.
Maybe somebody who knows more can comment ?
Had my RAR drop in the last month from over 15% to 13.03% across 73 loans. Two charged off loans both of which made no payments
Is anyone else sick of the almost lender blaming tone Harmoney has been using whenever they're trying to defend themselves in regard to charged off and defaulted loans? I'm constantly seeing on here 'theyre only x% of y and so on' and then in that stuff article 'were enjoying an "unbelievable" return of 13 per cent, even after all bad loans, including fraudulent ones.' It seems like we need to feel guilty about earning 13%.
My Rar has increased to 14.15%. Have been investing less recently, have found it a bit boring sifting through the loans. Have had heaps of repayments, so I just peel off the odd hundy for spending money.
Happy with my return, have only had 4 loans charged off from about 500 original loans over 13 months.
Might get a bit more interested when the weather becomes inclement.
It's really the other way around isn't it? The mean RAR is derived from all of the lenders, that includes you. So if yours increases or decreases that will be born out in Harmoney's mean RAR. But of course you're only one of many lenders, it's quite possible your RAR will move differently to Harmoneys, both in speed and direction.
I see the Harmoney platform RAR increased from 11.66% to 11.83%. Presumably, despite the fraud cases covered by the media and affecting posters on this thread, that means that their charge-off rates are still within their forecast delinquency rates per grade?
My reading is that too much attention is being paid to micro movements in the RAR each month. It will fluctuate based on write-offs and arrears (money lapsed or paid) and that's normal and to be expected. There's more value in identifying your RAR trend over time than looking at is as a number.
We've been provided with a peek behind the loan curtain that the banks have traditionally held. And now we're allowed back here we're whinging about arrears payments, write-offs, re-writes and fraud when these are a normal part of lending money to humans.
The return is very very good compared to many stocks and definitely bank interest rates. But what many people on this thread seem to have forgotten is that the higher the return, the higher the risk. Many here seem to expect high returns without any risk, like this is some sort of gamified savings account with colourful backstories.
Is the 3rd and 4th graph - more the 4th really - on this page https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors...ace-statistics that I am refering too. It seems regardless of strategy (high or low risk) the more loans you have, your return just reverts to the mean. So maybe if you are only investing a little bit, being selective may make a difference but if you are investing 10s of thousands, just take whats there. An auto invest whenever you have more than $25 would be the best option is they provided it.
You are right. It is like investing in the stock market. Every one try to beat the index but the index is the sum average of everyone's performance.
Harmoney RAR is that sum average.
I think I have a wonderful set of criteria for choosing loans. But everyone else investing in Harmoney think the same too. So, all our individual RARs will much depends on Harmoney RAR with in turn is largely affected by the interest rate they set and the number of defaults in the end. So, their system of approving of loans and assigning of grades to each borrower (thereby setting the interest rate) is the most important factor in all our performances.
So, those investors that have just a few hundred loans may have RARs that are much greater or lower, but if you have 1000's of loans, it will be hard to be very different from that mean.
The platform RAR is lower than the retail rar so it actually looks about right.
I guess mypoint is there doesn't appear to be a divergence between a low risk and high risk strategy. YOu could say this means Harmoney has got their ratings right but we will only see this once we hav gone through a whole business cycle. If the high risk ones are only performing as well as the low risk ones now, accounting for write offs, then what will happen in a recession? will the modeling still work or will the Es and Fs be impacted proportionately more. I would expect high risk to pay of in good times (now) but perform worse during bad times. That doesn't seem to be he case so I will probably start evening up my loan profile.
I think so too that EF will be hit more in bad times and perform better in good compared to AB
Almost 90% of my defaults are in E and F but in terms of returns they are still better than my loans in A and B. I guess that much as we know that high rewards comes with high risks, we are still bothered emotionally with defaults.
Has anybody done any rough calcuations on loan values at end of term for unit of $25.
I get this (but i might be wrong)
A1 60 months full survival is worth $5.28 after 17.5 tax and fees etc
GrossInterest 6.8929502163808039
PlatformFee 0.39866187770476019
RwtTax 1.2062662878666413
f5 60 months is $27.12
Gross Interest 33.76745875
PlateFormFee 0.734593234
RwtTax 5.909305281
How has someone made a -140% return?
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Has anyone noticed that the platform Rars were last updated 19 March. Wonder what the April Rars are?
Anyone think they will seek NZX listing, HNZ & TME hold stakes might be looking to see down at some stage?
It would appear they forgot to renew their website ssl cert. Not a good look for an Internet based Company, or there is a man in the middle attack going on.
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