People seem shocked when I tell them that ACC is first and foremost an investment company with accident compensation as a sideline.Oh Dear
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Interesting. If ACC didn't exist it would be lawyers and insurance companies clipping the ticket.
They seem to be doing alright: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/mone...-for-levy-cuts
Yes, it's been a good year all round for the markets.
Now here's a provocative thought. Perhaps ACC's investment expertise and success in trading should be applauded rather than criticised. More power to their arm - and lower ACC levies than otherwise would be necessary - sounds like a good idea to me. After all, the claims won't suddenly reduce if the investing experience sours!
Disc: No conflict of interest - other than as another taxpayer.
:cool:
That unfortunately is part of the problem--That kind of thinking (while doing well ATM-and who wouldnt with rising sharemarket in 2013) is also dictating policy and ACC has started acting more like a business corporation where profits are the main motivating factor.
Unfortunately the downside of that is the ''cost reduction''of screwing their victims by sending them to their self appointed doctors for evaluation and giving them incentives for cost cutting.
Their was a pretty revealing piece on 60min or 20/20.
While we need ACC to stay solvent its important they dont forget their primary reason for existence.
Also lets not forget they have had some pretty large cock ups in the past (lost alot of dosh with Pike River and NZO)
They are no different than alot of investment outfits --They are tickity boo (even idolized) until things sour and they get knocked off their high horse,and we all know who pays the price.
I only hope they are not getting to speculative
Looks like market is waking up not many wanting to sell cheap today,anticipation of a good result coming up,oh yeah
I agree 100%. I have over 30 years experience as an accountant and have seen millions of dollars in my career go into the ACC's coffers by way of levies on self employed clients but try and get any money out of them and most people give up in frustration and find the process of claiming extremly distasteful, at best. ACC are much harder to deal with than the I.R.D., (which is really saying something).
I find it somewhat disconcerting that ACC are trading Sum on such a frequent basis, effectivly with a big player like that "working" the stocks movements it makes it very tough to trade the stock profitably...on the other hand for those of us in this for the long haul does this really matter...
Dont forget though that ACC has a duty to ensure those making claims are genuine and in genuine need. They get hammered in the press for trying to make sure people are making valid claims, think what a mess it would be if claims were handed out willy nilly. We all know of someone who has ripped ACC of, with a suspect claim, so I applaud them for being tough, admitidly they go overboard at times but better that than being to easy.
After paying hefty levies for 25 yes I've gone with agreed value cover now although its about half my income I won't have to submit financials in the event of a claim and can still work part time while recovering without it affecting payout amount should I choose to,also have small income protection cover,back to Sum I'm predicting the price to break $3.50 after announcement coming up,anyone else agree?
Thats a fair point N4 and us taxpayers dont want to get ripped-BUT what I was referring to was situations uncovered where ACC employed doctors were intentionally making reports that were just plain dishonest (or it sure looked that way)
I wish I could dig up the report for all to see.
We dont want to get ripped off either way do we? ACC is supposed to be our parachute if something seriously goes wrong--This share market action looks to much like the stuff of the fat cat bankers and finance advisors that stuffed us the last time around.
I think I would be happier if they kept those millions in levies in safer money markets--Its suppose to be about security(for the money and us if we get hurt)
To be speculating (if thats the case) and at the same time shafting the working joe is not good--Its suppose to be about looking after people and at the same time hopefully screening fairly.
I know that this isn't the "ACC" thread but can't help observing that I find it strange that a supposedly successful investor/sharetrader should be criticised on the Sharetrader forum!
^People want to vent their frustration from time to time, a little thread diversion isn't a big deal I would have thought...
I'm a big believer in self insurance...by the time you look at all the wastage and administration in their system and the profits they make, self insurance to some extent makes sense over the long run.
At the risk of appearing extremly cynical I'd speculate the investment manager at ACC is on holiday at the moment otherwise no doubt they'd be "working" the stock. I think its become clear who has been relentlessly putting up volume on the sell side recently. Is my "love" for the ACC too obvious ? LOL.
I suspect ACC are dipping into their SUM investment to chase other stocks. Maybe they are behind the DIL/WYN surge - who knows.
Getting back to SUM, nice to see it settle on its highest end of day close. I know it's had an intraday trade of $3.50 in the middle of the year.
I guess it's a squeeze between lack of sellers and punters climbing aboard before the next announcement on or before the 10th.
4Q13 sales results out today!
Looking good at over 400 sales.
https://www.nzx.com/companies/SUM/announcements/245877Quote:
4Q13 Metrics - Sales of Occupation Rights
8:37am, 8 Jan 2014 | QUARTER
NZX & ASX RELEASE
8 JANUARY 2014
4Q13 METRICS – SALES OF OCCUPATION RIGHTS
Metrics for the sales of occupation rights for the final quarter of 2013 are provided below.
The Group achieved 402 sales across the year ending 31 December 2013, composed of 228 new sales and 174 resales.
This represents a 21% increase in the total number of sales on the prior comparable period. Gross cash for sales for the year were NZ$131 million, up from $102 million on the prior year.
“Achieving over 400 sales of occupation rights for the year is another milestone achieved for the company and reflects our experience as operators. We are constantly looking to improve what we do and offer and our sales reflect this” said CEO Norah Barlow.
Over the fourth quarter of 2013, the Group achieved 60 new sales of occupation rights and 51 resales of occupation rights.
This is an increase in total sales of 50% on the same quarter of 2012, with 111 sales in 4Q13 compared to 74 sales in 4Q12.
FY13 SALES OF OCCUPATION RIGHTS
See attached table
FY12 SALES OF OCCUPATION RIGHTS
See attached table
NOTES:
• Quarterly metrics on occupation right sales are provided by the 10th of the month following the end of each quarter.
• The quarterly sales metrics provided may not necessarily reflect NZ IFRS financial performance for the corresponding period. In particular, key items in the income statement, such as the fair value movement of investment property, are dependent on several variables, of which one is occupation right sales. NZ IFRS financial performance is calculated for the periods ending 30 June and 31 December each year.
Bring it on,now watch the price
Thanks JayRiggs, after reading that I can feel my wallet growing already
If this doesn't finish above $3.50 today then I don't want to know anything anymore.
Hi Mac-Im not criticizing the fact that they are supposedly successful at investing (ATM)--just the appropriateness of whether an outfit that is suppose to serve a social need should be run in such a way.
I realize that this site is primarily about profit,but a little social conscience on the side is not a bad thing IMO.
I dont think it does anything to detract from anyones opinion of SUM.
It certainly makes sense to be thinking about retirement investments at this point in time-theres alot of potential customers heading in that direction.
I called it $4.33 by November 2014 quite a while back in this thread and will stick with that for now but am feeling very confident after that exceptional sales result in ther fourth quarter. Very pleasing result.
Remember my fellow investors, like the Mainland Cheese advertisement says "good things take time" and great investment gains are a function of the equation of capital invested plus time in the market. With a stock that's showing good steady growth like SUM, your gains are directly proportional to the quantum of your investment both in terms of capital and time. Don't be frustrated if there's not quick gains today, its not an ATM machine, even if ACC seem to think so :)
Thanks Roger, well said.
Disc - Held Summerset for a while now and not sure I'll EVER sell.
Should rub off on RYM as well I reckon
It amazes me what people are paying for Met compared to Sum on no results figures?? Still think its overvalued
I'm going to hold SUM for 10 years and then retire into one of their units with my cat ;)
We have 3 small dogs we love heaps and they're all coming up eight years old this year and i'm wondering if SUM are agreeable to multiple pets ? I see a dog in a lot of SUM's advertising and they advertise that they love the life you bring to their reirement home e.t.c. but you don't see residents with 3 dogs very often... My wife and I are in our early 50's so its probably best we slim the number down to 2 by the time we retire...good thing that every 15 years or so you get to choose how many you want to have.
Interesting that Met seems to be keeping just ahead of Sum in its percentage rise today maybe some with poor eyesight thought it was a Met announcement by mistake
[QUOTE=silu;453067]Not quite sure if I have the stamina for Wife No. 3 Servicing requirements will be minimal at that stage unless you marry a younger French woman
What a way to die!Quote:
Not quite sure if I have the stamina for Wife No. 3 Servicing requirements will be minimal at that stage unless you marry a younger French woman
Anyway enough of pets and problematic relationships and I did some analysis.
Sales numbers grew 21% for the year but sales value grew 28.4% implying an avergae increase of 7.4% in the value of each unit.
Average sales price for 2013 $325,870 considerably more affordable than the average Ryman unit, which going off memory and someone please feel free to correct me but is getting up around $400,000 per unit, ($395,000 springs to mind), from memory. I think its fair to say Sum are targeting a slightly different market than Ryman.
But the really interesting thing was the split between first half sales and second half.
Sales to 30 June 2013 were up only 10.5% based on the previous comparable period, (remember adjusted profit after stripping out revaluations was up 45% at the half year to 30 June 2013), yet sales for the second half of the year were up 33% on the PCP which bodes very well for their full year profit given that the company is clearly executing pretty well on its stated intentions to derive higher development margins by bringing construction and development in house as evidenced by the first half financial results.
In a nutshell, I expect the realised profit, (excluding significant further revaluations), for the year ended 31 December 2013 to be up by circa 50% on the full year to 31 December 2012 with the risk to the upside in my opinion. With a clear and lengthy pipeline of projects and a new CEO anxious to prove himself together with strong tailwinds in the sector I believe we can look forward to highly satisfactory returns in the years ahead.
I plan to accumulate at times of any further weakness.
A few more words around the announcement from Norah Barlow can be found in:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...-sales-up-21pc
Looks like the Summerset name is starting to become quite favourable in the sector for those looking to buy a unit. I've said previously this will set SUM apart.
I guess it depends on the comparative mix of units for both RYM and SUM being sold during the year which may cause average value of units sold to vary...for example location and average size will have an effect. I think here in Auckland Ryman villages tend to be located in areas where the land values are more expensive...but despite that, the "feel" of the villages is quite similar and they seem to occupy similar niches imo.
What will also set Summerset apart is their excellent care model which they are not willing to sacrifice at this point for the sake of profit,long may this continue,there are some things I can't say on here due to there sensitive nature but needless to say not all in this sector have care near the top of their list anymore.
Having strong listed operators MET, RYM and SUM listed,should help lift the standards through the whole sector.
Actually this is only partially true,listed companies are under the public spotlight more via the media but as a company becomes more and more profitable so its shareholders expect even greater profits a lot of shareholders don't care whether some little old lady has 1 or 3 showers a week and don't forget that the care ratio is 1 to 5 in the hospital sections of all facilities listed or unlisted so lifted standards come from proper training of the right people and equipment of a good standard,listed companies can afford the best of equipment but don't always purchase it and don't forget size comes in here as a smaller facility can offer more personalized care as I've observed in some non for profits
Should MET,RYM,SUM put shareholders before residents they will fail.Their growth proves they are putting residents first.
Smaller players are falling by the wayside,and will continue to do so.Lawyers will be spending a few years yet sorting out the mess some of these small players left in Christchurch because of the earth quakes.
Lets us all of hope that there is not an unexpected "surprise/incident" that curtails the never ending spiral of residential house prices......as we all know "we" here in NZ are way far away indeed from what has/is occurred in other countries...i.e. dramatic ups/downs of house values that have wrecked economies ....
Like why is NZ probably immune from such...its my understanding that res prop valuations here have been increasing by 7 % (compounding) over the last 100 years... in addition it was my understanding that "we" change abodes every 7 years....now I believe its closer to 5 years.
Like are 'we" nuts...where does this fascination of res prop come from....its my believe that NZ is quite unique in this respect...like why do folk feel he need to build and live in 300 sq meter homes ...with abundant ensuites to boot....
are we all kidding ourselves that we as a nation deserve to live like this ???...our greatest revenue is bloody milk powder .......
Can I suggest you go and have a look at the Ministry of Health website and have a look at the aged care facilities results,you may get a surprise,their growth prove they are building and selling independent units not that they are putting residents first in their care centers,smaller players will continue to fall by the wayside because of the funding shortfall from the Govt and they can't prop it up with profits from unit sales,cheers
Broken through $3.50 this morning, can;t say i'm suprised in the slightest.
Quietly hoping the ACC investment manager returns from holiday really soon and starts selling again, I want more at $3.25 and suspect i'm not the only one :)
The volumes don't seem that big to me given the positive news. Only $800k as I write this. No SSH's.
I certainly have no problem with the price (and I'm certainly not complaining). But $800K is about 0.1% of SUM's market cap. A lot of the trades seem small too. It will be interesting to see what happens as SUM rises up the NZX50 in terms of institutional buying.
So they went below 5% selling in the low $3's and then go back over 5% buying at $3.49. Doesn't sound wise.
Not making excuses for ACC, anything but, but I think its fair to say quite a few investors have been taken by surprise by the latest quarter's sales stat's.
I bought more today as the risk to my own conservative case valuation of $4.33 by November 2014 is that it wouldn't surprise me at all if it hit that price straight after the full year results announcement due in late February.
Actually if you take out ACC's $641K then it's looking like a 'regular' day's trading at the high end of volume.
ACC could still be buying (or selling) .......don't need to say anything until they buy another 2 mill odd shares ....or go below 5% again
At lease keeping their brokers happy ......and the office person filling in those forms in a job
Actually this could be construed as market manipulation. ACC employee sells SUM on behalf of ACC, just before an announcement. ACC employee's wife then buys SUM. ACC employee then buys back to send the price north.
Note this is purely a thought experiment - I am in no way suggesting this is the case.
Please allow me to trump that wild speculation with some of my own that I think is far more plausable.
Its not a great look for ACC to be seen to be activly trading this stock BUT there's a reasonable chance they read too much into this sale announcement from Mr Saunders, figuring perhaps that if the general manager marketing and sales was selling he would be in a position to know the 4Q period sales wern't good.
https://www.nzx.com/companies/SUM/announcements/244071
Although he sold 75,000 shares in mid November, announced to the market on 20 November, this volume isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, BUT its not a good look for an executive in this position to be doing so and accordingly after this announcement there was a sustained period of weakness in the stock, something many people complained about and this weakness was consistent with a large institution selling down gradually and systematically.
I think its quite plausible that ACC read too much into this noptice and Mr Saunders simply needed the money for some purpose, who knows, buying a decent boat perhaps at that time of year,...anyway the actual sales result for 4Q was such a stunner than anyone thinking the marketing manager had some inside knowledge and following his lead got that call badly wrong.
I have a hunch we've seen the last of the ACC selling for quite a while and in any event it was a good day for holders of this stock...and ACC signalling that they're prepared to be buying again in the 350 range is a good thing for the stock price going forward.
they may well turn out to be right. I agree that the new shareholders will improve MET, but given its size and existing villages, any changes will be slow to show a benefit. SUM, in my view, should therefore be the best this year but longer term, who knows.
However, If IFT and the Superfund thought SUM was best placed, why didn't they buy Quadrants shareholding earlier in the year? Both shares were suffering from a similar overhang.
Thoughts?
I think that's a timing issue as much as anything else. Infratil only got really liquid late in the year with its sell down of Z. Could be wrong but I personally don't really rate Infratil's investment ability so not especially interested with what they do.
Also think Infratil would have seen Met as a company they could fix up due to their rocky past and management issues where as Sum already have excellent management so maybe they didn't think they could make as much impact or influence the company the same way as taking a stake in Met?
Agree with the first sentence. Re teh second, with the exception of the Europe airports, they have done very well.
So IFT saw MET has having the most room fro Growth? Isn't that what we are after as well. As I said above, on a longer time frame, MET will be one to watch. Short term, I like SUM.
Met will also be the first of the 3 to have to spend substantial sums of money on older building maintenance,this will eat a good dose of profit, I think Sum will still surprise once those 6 landbanks are built on and all profits start flowing,I really do like their strategy and there's more money to be made here than Rym IMHO work it out for yourself on 50 k sum shares at say $3.5 and you make a dollar a share over the next year and with the same money you can buy 22k odd Rym shares at $8 and make a dollar a share over the next year over double profit with Sum for same capital outlay and so on the following year until prices come closer together then it changes slightly
Does anyone know when the dividend is due? I can't find a payment date in the last financial report. Also wondering if the DRP is still in effect. Thanks.
Thanks Couta. Seems like a mission to find this stuff sometimes.
Just a thought but there is the obscure website called NZX.COM, it sometimes has useful stuff on it.
Best Wishes
Paper Tiger
*It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of The Leopard"
HHGTTG
'obscure' is perhaps a good choice oh clever one. NZX made some changes to their website last year, and I find it frustrating now to get the info I want sometimes. By searching the company/dividend, the company website appears very quickly, and almost always once on a company site you can get anything you want. Have noticed in the last couple of years many companies have made vast improvements to their websites, we used to have to dig a lot harder to get info now readily available from most.
Re dividend history, for example, NZX only shows last 3 years, compared to company website showing many years, some cases since year listed.
My tuppence worth!
I'm with you on this one Karen and find the NZX website frustrating. I am using this site http://www.dividendyield.co.nz/index.php a lot for information on dividends, run by one of our fellow ST members.
There's certainly some bigger trades going on with SUM today. Good to see.
- although it could just be ACC. Perhaps we should have a sweepstake for when the next SSH comes out for SUM regarding ACC?
Any takers for tomorrow?
All the big buys going through today at $3.60. I wonder if we will see a little run up to the FY report.
Well yes, less than six weeks from reporting now, how will it go;
Record new sales of 228 well above the 2013 build rate of 200, gross margins continuing to improve, record revenues, by far the highest land bank at 6 years, well more now actually with the purchase of the two Christchurch sites, steadily moving toward in-house project management, oh yeah and by the way we won the industry award four years in a row.
Shouldn’t be too shabby.
^^ Well said. What a contrast in the stock ever since the 4Q sales announcement. Before that there was always plenty of volume being added on the sale side, especially before Xmas...and we've now learned that was ACC selling, since the announcement we've had ACC buying back in at $3.50 and very little new volume on the sale side coming to market.
Nice little drift up leading to the annual annoucnement in late February I reckon. My spinnaker is set and I'm enjoying a nice gentle following breeze :)