Maybe “at meal times” would be a better use of words here. Just a suggestion.
Printable View
I wish but its a bit of both unfort.
Beagle me old mate and true believer in Ben Graham
If you really believed Ben's formula then OCA Intrinsic value is $5.15
Based on current EPS of 7 cents (and that's not the covid look through of 8 cents / EPS growth of a miserable 10% taken from the numbers you posted from Forbar report with me extrapolating out for 7 years with modest growth from 2023 / and used SUM bond rate 1.7% as current bond yields (jeez if I used govt rate the number is so high its ridiculous) and using Ben's revised formula V = EPS x (8.5+2g) x 4.4 / Y (Bond rate)
If I used 0.55% as 10 Year Govt Bond rate the Intrinsic Value is over $16
Pretty cool eh ....but Ben did say in The Intelligent Investor that his formula was pretty crap.
Yes I do understand that sometimes caregivers need to actively spoon feed residents who have very high care needs. But the language we use goes a long way to showing respect and humanity. The caregivers or family members who are actively spoon feeding your family member, are “supporting him/her at meal times” not “helping with feeding time.”
We are caring for human beings, not animals. Just saying :sleep:
but in Mr Grahams day money was almost still real stuff....1 ment 1 , negative was minus and positive was electrifying..... just saying....hit 1.48 before someone came on and popped the party...balloon.
The value of the shares is continually dependent on the low interest rate environment remaining. Will interest rates remain low if inflation starts to increase above the Reserve Bank mandate. Also can banks hold these low interest rate yields on deposits, taking into account the risks of lending, and also the depositors taking out their Term Deposits and either buying shares, houses, beach houses, boats, and cars. Sooner or later the rubber band will break and interest rates will start to rise. When will this happen? that is the multibillion dollar question.
which means? look for them to do another bond issue next year? Lock in the low interest rates and increase the conversion rate?
has any stock actually on the NZX performed to the BG formula? and does intrinsic value ever ever get a lookin on actual share prices paid.
it could take at least 3 years before the market starts to absorb demand with a revamp of the RMA.
prices in the upper central north island may well decouple from the south island.
ARV PE is starting to move high up there for growth?
SUM P/E up there!
RYM P/E up there!
well those are big P/E's
Ultra low interest rates for the foreseeable future, possibly the rest of this decade is how I see it.
Winner, what's the market average PE ? Apply that to OCA and what do you get ?
What's the much slower growing RYM PE, (answer historical PE is 30.6) apply that to OCA and you get $3.67
I suspect both answers start with three dollars something. Couldn't happen, surely not ?...or in a few years could it ?
Heck, even SUM is on a forward PE of over 20 now. 20 x 12 = $2.40 and I reckon OCA's growth prospects are at least as good as SUM's.
"most of the last 6 months have gone against my expectations."
yes we agree but we decided to move into defensive early and then move into the market in july and its been up up and away ever since!
No SP sell off last night when it should have run for the hills... this market is just not doing what it supposed to and we have been rewarded. If you stayed away ...
wonderful retreat today...
Hope we finish up for the day
Otherwise I'll be reading in market commentary 'OCA saw profit taking after a strong run up to record highs'
OMG - I could be a market commentator / journo and make a living writing crap things that punters love to read
I hope I didnt jinx this, but I bought back some of what I sold this morning, at 10 cents less. Just like getting a dividend.
if the chart is similar to before...the sell off's run down for a while...
Hardly a sell off. Down 2 cents. That said some consolidation around the current level is to be expected I would have thought, before the next leg higher.
yeees but the open and close are what is recorded... and the chart wont show it ... MR B is Correct. How ever i am expecting this to go side ways for a while.... expecting but if people believe .. well the usual chart thing might not happen. good day to see it fail the 150 mark thank you. Only because we just dont have any where near what we need... and wont have since we nearly fully allocated until 2 stocks return to profit... oh well there will be another crisis..just too many people on the planet to avoid them....
as Richard Quest would say
A Ve e ry Pro o f i t a b l e Y ee a rrr!
Today’s action must have made be an interesting candle pattern on the chart ....any name for it ....looks bearish or too early to tell.
wonder which fund winner works for ...
photo deleted ,,, you had to be fast.....
Promising am but ****e pm.
Signal of things to come perhaps.
You’re looking at the base price now I’d say
the 3 times its retraced its averaged about 12 cents and does so over for about 5-6 months.
It wasn't that long ago peeps were saying stuff like it'll never be below a dollar again...well that was proven incorrect on more than one occasion. Yeah I reckon a new base at ~$1.20 isn't unlikely, especially if and when there's a little correction on the dow or sumink. Chuck another decent covid outbreak in the mix and it may well go lower. I'm not concerned though, the general trend is up and a healthy correction at this point will be a short lived opportunity for topping up.
Attachment 12026
I reckon its closest to a shooting star
What is a Shooting Star?
A shooting star is a bearish candlestick with a long upper shadow, little or no lower shadow, and a small real body near the low of the day. It appears after an uptrend. Said differently, a shooting star is a type of candlestick that forms when a security opens, advances significantly, but then closes the day near the open again.
So sell everyone sell !! we've shot our load
To add to our understanding of a shooting star (if thats what it is) ...
The candle that forms after the shooting star is what confirms the shooting star candle. The next candle's high must stay below the high of the shooting star and then proceed to close below the close of the shooting star. Ideally, the candle after the shooting star gaps lower or opens near the prior close and then moves lower on heavy volume. A down day after a shooting star helps confirm the price reversal and indicates the price could continue to fall. Traders may look to sell or short sell.
If the price rises after a shooting star, the price range of the shooting star may still act as resistance.
If its been there once it will go there again, unless there is an adverse announcement. But not necessarilly in one day.
I'm with you mate and at my core am a value investor. I respect TA and do the basics like not buying in a confirmed downtrend, (unless there is extraordinary deep value that's completely irrational) and like basic indicators like seeing my belief in the fundamental's supported by a rising trendline. Buying a half sized position on a break about the 30 day moving average and the rest on a break up through the 100 day moving average is one of my favorite approaches but always supported by a deep conviction about the fundamental's. I seldom if ever buy on TA alone...but with the TA stuff I think its best to stick to the confirmed trends. I leave the abandoned baby and shooting star type theories to others.
This is now in a nice confirmed uptrend supported by compelling fundamental's.
I'm kind of glad the share price fell a bit before the weekend. There is something “grounding “ about it so rational thinking can resume for the 2 day holiday.
There is no doubt that the rapid SP rise was solely on the back of public recent reratings by 2 analysts (out of 3) . “4 traders” website has the 3 OCA analysts average target price now of $1.40. It seems highly likely that the 3rd analyst will upgrade too when he gets to it.
I have been lucky enough to have been sent both of those reports from a friend here. After spending a couple of days on the Credit Suisse report I see 2 clear mistakes (the rest of the report is excellent) they have made which produces a significant undershoot in their underlying expectations.
This gets technical but “a must” to understand for any serious OCA investor….
First, they have used an assumed ILU price of $720ish by averaging an apartment ($1100ish) and a villa ($480k ish). Problem with this is OCA’s pipeline is 90% apartments and only 10 % villas. See the issue? This makes a massive difference to the bottom line as income from new sales and future annuity like DMFs are seriously understated.
Second, is to do with the forward assumed resale price % increases. Here they have again averaged the historical resale returns of a care suit (10%) and a ILU(29%) to come up with 19%. What they have missed is the care suits churn every 2.5 years so , apples for apples , care suits actually should be adjusted to 30% resale margin to line up with a 7 year ILU churn. Or better still , actually treat care suits as a completely indepenadant bunch of numbers on their workings.
In a nut shell, thats 3 out of the 4 income streams where these incorrect assumptions are coming up short . The 4th income stream is DHB care fees, I don't think we should ever expect any income growth coming from there.
Respectfully, I suggest Credit Suisse have tried to condense the OCA numbers so they fit into an existing SUM or RYM template which doesn't account for OCA’s complex different weightings of high and low value offerings, all the while churning at different rates.
Forsyth have made almost exactly the same assumptions as CS and their net result is similar to Credit Suisse.
However what we all can agree on together, is that there is about 15% CAGR in profit in the next 3 years (neither 2 project further than this). It's just that I start from a much higher 2021 base and I am even more bullish with the CAGR. Id like to add Beagles latest earning numbers here are almost identical to mine and for the record we both work independently.
So I'm saying the latest analyst figures are quite wrong to the underside. These minor errors may seem small buried somewhere in a spreadsheet but produces a result significant under shooting on the bottom line.This tells me that the story is still not understood properly even by the larger broking houses.
I fully respect the analysts composing these reports . So for clarity , my comment about “ drunk monkeys“ the other day which has taken some traction here was never pointed at them for a moment. We all do agree on all the other well laid out stuff.
While they will be much smarter than myself, I can say am right on this and they are wrong only because personally I have all day to fully focus specifically on a just few companies I'm interested in. These poor fellas will have to spread themselves thin all over the place under a ton of pressure and deadlines. No swanning around the country doing site visits for them!
However ,the share price is moved by their words , not lil’ ol’ Mavericks or Beagles butfrankly, what difference does a short term shareprice fluctuation make to a non- trader anyway?
Late January is judgement day when I'm saying there will be a seriously major uplift in underlying profit well ahead of any expectations to date.
My conviction on these statements and stock (covid withstanding) is such that if I am proved to be wrong I should be expected to "turn in my wings."
This stock has never retraced 20 cents over a 4-6 month period on the open and close.
It would take a large event to move the price down from a high off 1.40.. Intra day 1.49 to 1.20.
Im afraid this stock has put in a pattern that reflects market sentiment on its EPS performance in relation to the other sector listed companies.
1.20 is highly unlikely from here but it possible if bad news events occur.
In relation to the post by the leading private investor analyst we are hopeful they continue to get the numbers wrong as we have gone from over weight in 2019 to very very under weight in 2020!
Thankfully we have got exposure through ARG, KPG, GMT (T) , Retail, KMD (T), HLG , and a few underwater stocks in cyclicals that wont pop back until vaccines are distributed in 2022.
Thats right people vaccines wont be here for the public in the world until 2022 for everyone who needs them, either jabs or nasal.
(T) stands for trading. Else it is marked as HOLD.
Some of these names for chart elements remind me of some sociology text i have in a large family book collection.
When the analysts get back from their summer holiday's in late January they are going to be scrambling to seriously update their valuations, mark my words.
"expect the unexpected at all times."
well then we will be very lucky and we can move from under under weight to having a few more!!!
The numbers are the numbers and the chart is clear. except for one big variance. Chart people.. get with the chart. The chart is you and you are the chart.
A blow out in EURO and US virus waves may cause some flux.
The future is uncertain but there is no fate when it comes to portfolio performance, but what we make for ourselves.
govt locks in funds at super low rates for decade. fund managers not expecting inflation for a decade. OCA may be able to bond issue again for low rates and increase conversions.
We are thinking in the next 5 years those you can move there free profits to stronger currency investments will possible prosper.
NZ just did not take the leap we hoped it would in the crisis that MR O offered the government.
List property stocks should probably all go bond issuance at super low rates.
I hate to say it but MR B called it. Low for a decade.
Thanks Maverick. But what do you think about Credit Suisse's assumption of an average apartment price of $1.1m? Is this an assumption or an actual price? Seems a bit on the high side to me.
Hi MacDuffy.
last years actual OCA sales figures were apartments at $1131 per apartment and villas at $467. OCA present these figures individually and are consistent with 2 years gone by.
(Previously FY18 -$973 and FY 19-$998k)
However in their more general blurb they simply descibe these 2 offerings classed together as an ILU.
Credit Suisse have not assumed the $1131 wrong , it's just they have watered it down by averaging it with a villa ( of which OCA make bugger all). They have used the mid point for their workings to use as one ILU price fits all. In fact have a nice graph displaying their future assumptions of agregate ILUs figure sitting around the $700-$750.
I have considered and priced in that there will be an average drop in the apartment prices as the Nelson ones are only selling for $580-$825. But in reality Nelson is really about care suits and don't have many apartments. In the mean time OCA still have a load of Auckland meadow bank and a handful of Browns bay left to sell which will hold the apartment prices up for a while.
In which time OCA will have a truck load of Hamitlon, Auckland and Tauranga apartments coming on stream which will hold the average up. CERTAINLY not $720.
FWIW my own apartment assumptions; FY2021 is a drop down to FY21 $960 and FY22 $850 and then heading back up again. I now consider too low given the property market fizz.
Also of interest to me when talking with Nelson was some of the recently finished Nelson care suits are going for $400k which is an OCA record....and they are selling:scared::scared::scared: !
I kind of feel like apologising for these long and technical posts but I don't see how I can communicate this complicated story any easier...which I think is OCAs biggest problem too ...for now.:t_up:
I kind of feel like apologising for these long and technical posts but I don't see how I can communicate this complicated story any easier...which I think is OCAs biggest problem too ...for now.:t_up:[/QUOTE
No apologies Maverick. We really appreciate you and others sharing your skills and hard work with us. Some of us have offset our losses from earlier this year (banks, ZEL) by following shared thoughts on this forum.
No apologies Maverick. We really appreciate you and others sharing your skills and hard work with us. Some of us have offset our losses from earlier this year (banks, ZEL) by following shared thoughts on this forum.[/QUOTE]
kind of you to say Beat the Bank, thank you. In the years ahead you will have some good insights and between us all here we have a good chance of Beating the Insto's.
i second , or third or, fourth n that.
Thank you Mr B and Mr M.
Agreed, thank you all for your insightful analysis.
Yes, many thanks for your detailed analysis there, Maverick. No apology ever needed for taking the time to explain!
:)
Ditto that, blessed to have deep insights shared with us, certainly appreciated.
I can only ditto the above comments too. With OCA being my largest holding I find the posts on this thread and the depth of analysis absolutely invaluable. Thanks A LOT guys.:t_up:
From post #6793 Hey Beagle,
Could you please explain why the initial development margin is taxable income? I can understand the re-sale gain is essentially a tax free capital gain however not too sure why the initial sale is treated differently? It seems to me that the property when first developed is essentially trading-stock and then subsequently converted to a fixed asset?
Cheers
Disc: I don't do the financials' for any property company so this is not a tax opinion it is simply my understanding of the position.
Developed properties go straight to being fixed assets and are never sold, simply a license to occupy is issued in return for an interest free loan from the incoming resident.
Upon initial development there is a one off gain between the development cost and the initial value at which the transfer is made to fixed assets, (the development margin) which I understand as a property developer is taxed. I don't believe they're ever trading stock per se as no trading of the actual ownership of each unit ever occurs merely a license to occupy is issued.
The arrangement whereby someone loans OCA say $400K interest free for the right to occupy a care suite and agrees to pay $X a week in care fees comes under the financial arrangements provisions of the income tax act and I understand there has been a binding ruling that means that while retirement operators must pay tax on any profits from the weekly fees and tax of the 30% retention they take when the resident vacates the unit, (less the costs of refurbishment), they can reissue another license to occupy at a higher price down the track without any tax impost.
The above could easily be wrong, its simply my understanding of the system.
A large part of the development cost is also capitalised (I.e roads, communal areas) and does not appear as part of the development margin in the income statement. I treat the “development margin” with a bit of caution as it does NOT mean that if all the units sell on a $100m development at 30% margin you now have $130m.
Great, thanks for that. Appreciated.
Quite right mate. The real money is not in the development margin for the issue of the first license to occupy, its in the reissue of the second, third, fourth and so on new license's to occupy down the track. In many ways the first occupants get the best deal with brand spanking new communal living area's to enjoy.
Tax position on refurbishments cost?
Thank you Mr B. Just double checking.
It strikes me that it would be a good idea for people to [re]read the full year financial statements, very definitely including the notes (especially 3), and get a grip on investment property versus property, plant & equipement and the different tax treatments thereof.
You should also spot when a road is included in the development margin and when it is not and other exciting things to improve your understanding.
Careful analysis of the Presentation materials is also encouraged but UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER should you attempt to make sense of Note 5 of the financials. For that path leads to madness:
https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset..._630_noupscale
Well , it seems the 3rd analyst upgraded his recommendation over the weekend. We now have had all 3 recently upgrade their ratings to "outperform, buy and buy". It's worth a couple of minutes checking the scale on "4 traders " website under consensus. It really is a sight to behold for us long sufferers here.
The little arrow has now shifted from the middle "hold " area to the extreme end of the " buy" indicator. All in 2 weeks.
Good luck with the SP pull back your team were hoping for now Waltzing man...that's a heck of a current to be rowing against after this.
Back to the real stuff (FA).... If anybody's has access to the 3rd analysts workings I would really appreciate a pointer to where I can find it. Cheers.
https://www.marketscreener.com/quote...268/consensus/
Analysts are starting to wake up to the growth ahead. As mentioned last week, I predict major upgrades from them all after the interim results in late January 2021.
I do not think they are fully comprehending that the valuers wrote down unsold units at balance date especially harshly due to their perception of values at that date.
There is 10 cps in earnings in just selling down stock at balance date at prices assumed by OCA, (not at the values that may be prevailing in the market at present), which is up from 8 cps as at the interim result last year, an extra $2 cps or $12m in extra earnings.
I remain comfortable with my estimate of earnings for the 10 months ended 31 March 2020 of 10 cps, (annualized 12 cps), well north of even the most optimistic analyst. I see the split being approx $35m underlying profit in the first half and $25m in the second period.
I think the analysts are spread pretty thin and don't have the time to do the really detailed analysis like some professional investors do.
someone asked what candle formation it was ....
sorry to suggest selling guys , one should never fight the wave of enthusiasm from Mr B and Mr M's posts and go against it.
N.B. It wasnt a perfect shooting star
(disclaimer:have not sold from 1.09)
but as some one trying work their depleted capital harder I must admit I was tempted tho..l
As part of our continual learning experience I am reposting the info on the price pattern required the day after the shooting star so we can all follow whether the sh.st. is confirmed.
- The candle that forms after the shooting star is what confirms the shooting star candle.
- The next candle's high must stay below the high of the shooting star and then proceed to close below the close of the shooting star.
- Ideally, the candle after the shooting star gaps lower or opens near the prior close and then moves lower on heavy volume.
- A down day after a shooting star helps confirm the price reversal and indicates the price could continue to fall. Traders may look to sell or short sell.
- If the price rises after a shooting star, the price range of the shooting star may still act as resistance.
Obviously the rationale behind a shooting star is that it found massive resistance at those levels, so despite our enthusiasm for the FA , traders may still wish to note this point and follow up on todays outcome
Broker analyst target prices are predetermined by prevailing share price
Once they got that sorted they write their story and do their sums to suit
shooting stars.....crikey ... look up to the heavens!!!
im going down to upgrade my telescope .... after all hubble needed a bigger one..
is Jacinda a shooting star... did she just take another leap higher? how high do these stars go!?? :scared::scared::scared:
you light as many candles as you like but ill stick to runtime dynamic accounting models thanks.
In other words i wait for the FA as we dont trade this stock it just not the type of stock we trade.
It either a BUY, HOLD or SELL and not on a monthly basis
oh wait that all you can do with a stock ....:scared:
not trying to get on your wick, or into your beeswax , just contributing in the way I can. and I will shut up after this. Candles are not cosmic , or akin to reading tea leaves like many think of TA especially the pattern analysis stuff
They are more like your moving averages. You cannot deny their facts They use O:H:L:C and they portray that info at a glance. Whats not to like:? /end of general candle rant (apart from possible further analysis of OCA)
I'm really not sure what part of note 3 and 5 you are pointing out? There is a lot of stuff in there. If you are alluding to yesterdays chat here about how communal roads and ground work etc is classified accounting wise , then yes I had a refresh just for fun. However I don't really see any dramas of how its all classified.
Some here put quite an emphasis on asset backing of a retirement village. In a takeover scenario , fair enough. Otherwise this seems rather pointless in my mind as nothing ever gets sold on the open market anyway. To me its all about the that profit comes from those assets that is value. So whatever column on a balance sheet a road or driveway ends up in is of little interest to me.
I don't know who the 3rd analysts is to phone( if you were serious?). Further to that I'm not in the business of debunking everybody who I disagree with , I just have to understand why we disagree and adjust my model accordingly. Just turns out this time around no adjustment is necessary on my part as I have tried to explain here.
I never know how to take you Snow Leopard? I figure I`ve just wasted 10 minute of my life that I wont get back...but just maybe you are steering us to something of value??? I am very willing to listen, that's what this forum is all about.
the flows of money into stock markets is a bit like a dam which opens it gates on a rotating timer to varying degrees with the interval reset every few cycles as the weather changes in a climate change disaster... attaching lovely names to these cycles has been something to write about for a long time... we have some lovely old charts from the 1980 and 1990's (US based ) around and boy they are far better than anything ive seen on the internet created with a bit of javascript on an Html canvas.
price at the moment is anyones until the FA comes out. It may decline a little and move sideways for a while until the next FA comes out.
cheers mate
Candles have been around since the 1700;s and were used at that time in the Japanese rice markets. So its not like its just me....
As today is (so far ) an 'inner day (inside the previous candle body ) there is nothing so far that contradicts the confirmation of the shooting star.... but it will need to close a bit lower to become an ideal confirmation , we have the volume we have the down day but we dont have any strong south movement - yet. I will comment again after close.
Attachment 12028 (prior to daily close)
(Still holding)
Good to see OCA holding up as SUM and RYM slipped back a bit today. Interesting day tomorrow when possibly see some MET money coming back in to the sector!
Shooting star is a worry In the tea leaves but long term on this looks good.
Thanks to all contributors
I made a number of significant top-up's to my shareholding in the $1.30 - $1.41 range last week after a significant term deposit matured on Friday the previous week.. Actions speak louder than words. I think its pretty clear where this is headed in the medium to long term.
As expected, the MET takeover is now effectively done and dusted. https://www.nzx.com/announcements/361703
Where is some of that $1.27 Billion of cash going to be reinvested ?
Met is taken down...so all money will go to OCA ARV and SUM.
End of an era... that Met rollercoaster was quite a ride, only rode it twice myself but VERY enjoyable experience:D
OCa of course!
well if this is the favourite im hoping for more shoooten staarrs...
sorry its my irish english DNA... the Irish side just gets carried away..
up up and away then? we will all have to send a commission to be MR B and Mr M but i suspect their holdings are over weight anyway..
Now that you’re a trader, if you weren’t before, make sure you provision for tax on your capital gains.
Looking through the lens of a long term investor who has no time horizon to sell the assets, COVID was a blessing offering up an opportunity to accumulate a lot more shares at much lower prices - bringing down the average holding price of a much larger holding.
Gltah
having been through a few crisis i feel its bit soon to sell this one when you have 2 FA reports to come and we are in the midst if the current crisis..
wont return to europe until 2022. there is a forecast from one economic metrics outfit for a recession 2021 in NZ.
The recession may effect certain demographics more than others.
Interpretation, IRD doesn't care what your motivation is that changed your mind.
I do respect and enjoy your charts and patterns analysis, no dispute, though typically for my charts the minimum timeframe is weekly, or monthly. But I have no intention to sell this one, so am only interested in accumulating when the market decides to give me a deal.
A mute point .
I buy with the intention of holding long-term but circumstances change and my mind changes.
Therefore my accountant says I am not a trader.
I only sold about 5% of my holding and I am a long-term holder .
I might be wrong in my assumption .
I keep a record of my intentions
OTY to do what you want to, a 'moot' point perhaps. From my time with the IRD, I prefer now to having nothing to do with them, I always use a big five accountant to front my interactions with IRD and provision for any possible downside eventuality. You sign a terms of engagement with your accountant that waives their culpability, regardless of what they advise you. Hopefully their advice is the best you can afford to buy. Your view of your intentions and actions do not necessarily reconcile with the IRD's view. Moreover, you broadcast your circumstance on a public forum, and despite your pseudonym, your identify is discoverable. Might be small beans but a lot of people here post with perhaps some false sense of impunity.
All the best.
I guess we're getting off topic but, until your own circumstance are tested by the IRD (and believe me you don't want that if there's ANY borderline interpretations) you don't and won't know. In my experience they don't care about changing motivations, or frequency of buy/sells, it's easy for them to just say (if necessary in court) ... "look 'investor', basically you bought some shares with the apparent intent to hold, but actually if anything comes up that you need the money for or are worried about capital losses for whatever reason you would sell. See, you sold in those circumstances, you're a trader, pay up your taxes", case closed.
Thanks for the correction.
You are right -I should have said a moot point .
If the IRD should demand tax on profit by calling me a trader then they will have to accept loses and brokerage against profit.
For an investor like me I feel I should be allowed to sell without being taxed when the main reason is I have changed my mind and want to invest in something I will enjoy .
Do we not all invest with the intention of selling one day ? Does that make us all traders?
I am curious to know how many people on sharetrader have had disputes with the IRD as to their investor/trader status ?
A further thought-is it best not to post on sharetrader lest that could be used in court as evidence you have the appearance of a trader?
No, we don't all invest with the intent of selling. Many invest with the intent of growing their capital asset base ad infinitum and receiving a taxable income from it (preferably taxed at the company, i.e. imputed earnings), ergo the bigger the capital base, the bigger the income. If ones intent is to grow capital and receive dividends, but when adverse or other conditions motivate us to sell, to realise or protect capital, then by definition we are traders.
Deleted because site would not allow me to put in word i wanted to.
I guess we are all lost if the IRD investigate .
Maybe I should ask my accountant to change my status to a trader and claim all the expenses-office,computer,broadband ,brokerage,and share losses for peace of mind whilst tax rates are low .
The more I think about it the better it seems-I would have to attend AGMs ,Hotel and travel and meal expenses.
I would probably make a loss I could put against my professional income.
Haha,conversation between Mr Fish and IRD over two subsequent tax yrs. Year 1 Mr Fish wants to claim a nice loss but IRD says because Mr Fish has a day job he is not really a trader so can't claim the loss. Year 2 Mr Fish makes a nice profit but because he has a day job and couldn't claim a loss the year before he doesn't think he should pay tax but IRD says sorry Mr Fish you are definitely a trader.