Yes. zero sum game for AH. But not for the govt guarantee.
He made the transfers to add equity to SCF. Without it, SCF may have not qualified for the GG. By inflating the values, it gave a false sense of security.
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He didn't inflate values. The transaction was at arms length and was inspected and approved by Treasury.Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ
Are you sure that the financial structure of the units that went in to SCF were the same as those sold?
Are you sure that Goldman Sachs got the best price possible for Scales?
Do you acknowledge that the SCF receivership put a giant cross labled "Forced Seller" on the Receivers back? Do you expect that this was conducive to extracting a premium from the sale?
Do you acknowledge that the asset transfer actually was an equity injection and hence actually supported the government guarantee?
These are all reasonable questions. However, the weak conclusion everyone arrives at (from the time the deal was done to now) was that the assets were overvalued. This ranges from the absurd (David Hillary) to the ridiculous (this thread).
Its called taking personal responsibility. AH was the top of the tree operationally and at a governance level. Some people know this - like the BP guy who fell on his sword when they dropped a bit of oil in the Gulf. We even have Alloway stepping aside as he, apparently, didn't know about a fellow directors fee in a Hanover / ALF transaction.
Taking personal responsibility is something we aren't good at in NZ - and it starts at the top. We have politicians with their snouts in the trough and we have business leaders who are quite prepared to support an environment in which profits are privatised and losses socialised.
AH was more than happy to take hand-outs and use these as a mechanism for taking on ever increasing risky loans. He was more than happy to bring loot in and spin it through so many related party loans that no one has a clue where it all went. He was the one that brought in the staff and it is said he was the one that pretty much personally oversaw every single transaction. He was the one more than happy to take from the poor and give to the greedy. Integrity with a little h!
AH was the one that maintained his persona. His persona attracted the sheeple who, without analysis gave him their loot because "he was a good man". This is called "grooming". Sex offenders don't get away with it - nor shouldn't AH.
We will never know the real value of the assets because they were never subjected to an open market. We can now say with confidence that the assets at the time of the transfer were over valued relative to the sale price they achieved today. Of course the tide has moved in the intervening period. Some may say its been a rising tide and it lifts all boats. Unfortunately SCF has a millstone and a short rope of its own makingQuote:
However, the weak conclusion everyone arrives at (from the time the deal was done to now) was that the assets were overvalued. This ranges from the absurd (David Hillary) to the ridiculous (this thread).
Mini, your posting is full of the same bias (in a negative sense) that you criticise (unjustified, uncritical positive bias).
I actually don't remember Allan Hubbard appearing on television telling us how robust and secure an investment in SCF was. I don't remember Allan Hubbard taking out large newspaper ads proclaiming "stability" and "prudence" in financial returns. I don't remember of prospectus' filled with Allan Hubbard photos in a variety of "sound financial settings".
If there was a "word" circulating about Allan Hubbard - it was, and is, "integrity". This is because people judged him on his actions.
Your claim that Allan Hubbard cultivated a cult of personality are nonsense.
You cannot even make the statement "We can now say with confidence that the assets at the time of the transfer were over valued relative to the sale price they achieved today" because you cannot demonstrate that they are the same assets.
No matter how unsafe the premise or unsound the logic - this does not stop the "sheeple", as you put it, from leaping to the conclusion that Allan Hubbard was deceitful in bolstering SCF equity with the introduction of the equity assets. I feel a moral responsibility to take up the cudgels to correct this defective thinking.
Perhaps some quotes are in order:
"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion". - Joseph Goebbels
"Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play". - Joseph Goebbels
You don't recall AH publicly suggesting SCF is up for an IPO? You don't do that unless the public are given the perception there is a robust and secure investment.
Don't you remember how he said SCF is now part of the Govt Guarantee scheme and how secure and and robust an investment would be. You missed those prospectuses (hardly surprising given the number of times they were late and amended ) which made reference to this.
Don't you. I remember the loud ads proclaiming 8% interest rates (over what the rest of the market were offering! Tahts integrity for you.) because SCF was the biggest and best finance co around.Quote:
I don't remember Allan Hubbard taking out large newspaper ads proclaiming "stability" and "prudence" in financial returns.
No? what about this quote on the release of the 2009 prospectus "“We have had to attend to a number of matters in recent weeks which caused delays in the registration of the prospectus. We very muchQuote:
I don't remember of prospectus' filled with Allan Hubbard photos in a variety of "sound financial settings".
appreciate the patience of our loyal investors and customers and look
forward to their continued support,” Thats couched in terms aimed at the heart strings
It certainly "was' but as the reports into Aorangi and HWF come out we see a different picture.Quote:
If there was a "word" circulating about Allan Hubbard - it was, and is, "integrity". This is because people judged him on his actions.
What do you call all those Timaru numpties waving their placards. I call it a "cult" though not in the strictest sense of that wordQuote:
Your claim that Allan Hubbard cultivated a cult of personality are nonsense.
Good on you - we all need access to a variety of views so we can form our own view of balance.Quote:
I feel a moral responsibility to take up the cudgels to correct this defective thinking.
oh dear - do i invoke Godwins law on these?Quote:
Perhaps some quotes are in order:
Your proposition is that Allan Hubbard cultivated a cult of personality. My view is that he did not. Further, my view is that your supporting "evidence" is weak - you have yet to produce a single example of the "trust me, I'm Allan Hubbard" format. The burden of "proof" remains yours ...
You must find it a curious proposition that so many SCF, Aorangi and Timaru people are still quite content to drink the Allan Hubbard "Kool-Aid". It is remarkable that so many people who have suffered financial harm blame the agencies acting to "protect" their interests by enacting a controlled demolition of the Allan Hubbard financial empire. Strange, indeed, that these people would have preferred to see it saved to continue operation in their community rather than accept the benevolent harsh medicine concocted behind closed doors and smoke free rooms in Wellington.
Imagine the cheek of these people to ask for evidence (even only, in the form of SFO charges - a year after the Statutory Management event). You would think these people would graciously acknowledge that "Wellington knows best" and it is more desirable to submit to the cult of Bill English or Simon Power than to be lead astray by Allan Hubbard.
Okay - so you are saying that SCF was better off after AH put those assets into SCF, but that due to inherent uncertainty regarding the value of a non monetary asset, the benefit to SCF may have been somewhat less than thought at the time?
It still seems to me that AH put tens of millions of dollars of his own assets into SCF to secure other creditors (whoever that may have been including the taxpayer) when he was under no obligation to do so.
I can't help contrast that with other Finance Company shareholders such as the Hanover boys. It certainly doesn't seem like the actions of someone who was trying to line their own pocket as some here are saying?
Alan.