Correct. Thank-you.
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Is Hatch or Sharesies better?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124...aresies-better
looks like hatch better for trades over $500 where as sharesis better for trades under $500
I’d say that article wasn’t fit to be published.. writer states the 1c/share (after first 300) is ‘much more affordable’ then completely leaves it out of the equation in his charts. He also seems to quote hatch fees in USD and Sharesies in a bit of both.
A $1000 investment such as in his chart does cost $5 for sharesies, but only costs the $3 he quotes for hatch if you’re buying less than 300 shares ($3.33 per share, or higher). As soon as you’re buying shares worth $2/ea or less, you begin to break even with, then overtake Sharesies for fees.
$1000 of OCA at say $1.56 = ~641 shares. $5 Sharesies fee, $6.41 for Hatch.
He lists the fee for a $10k transaction as $50 for Sharesies.. when it should be $22 by my working.
$10k OCA at $1.56 = ~6,410 shares.
$22 Sharesies fee. $64.10 Hatch fee.
(If his quoted fees are correct)
Seem to need to spend ~$4.54 a share to bring the Hatch fee down to match Sharesies at that buy value.
So in short - Hatch should be cheaper if you’re only buying higher-value shares - FPH, ATM, MFT etc. but you would have had a bit of a blowout trying to grab some PEB back at 64c, or SKT at 15c!
Or are my numbers as bad as his?
Also look at Stake. They have no fees but charge FX @ 1% where Sharesies and Hatch roll that into their fee structure. Stake is US only
https://www.moneyhub.co.nz/sharesies...-vs-stake.html
....and don't forget Sharesies has a monthly (or annual) subscription cost
Word has it that Hatch is going to be having ASX and NZX shares soon.
Does anybody here hold KFL with Sharesies by any chance? If so, were you able to access the warrants exercise application form they emailed you? Not working for me.
Yes and it worked for me too. Hope they work out buying and selling if warrents one day but for now I'm happy taking all I can get my hands on!
Interesting article. I get a bit annoyed myself with with the requirement.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/130...swer-questions
Agree. Some of the requirements are ridiculous but it's not the brokers/banks who impose these things – it's governments which effectively require them to treat every customer as a felon unless and until the customer proves they are not and then slap on huge fines for failing to prevent crooks using their services.
From Business Desk email this morning:
Could Sharesies be on the hunt for more capital? Company executives have said its not on the immediate horizon, despite its latest loss.
Trade Me's holding company, Titan Parent New Zealand, which has a 13.5% interest in Sharesies, said the investment platform’s total loss from continuing operations was $25.1 million in the year to June 30 while revenue was $20.7m.
https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/f...aa59-402467359
Sharesies have just announced that they are working on a Sharesies KiwiSaver Scheme:
https://www.sharesies.nz/kiwisaver?utm_campaign=KiwiSaver-Waitlist&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook&f bclid=IwAR3qhrwjWymGfofEu2tLRDMGclfSQbk6eG3MFeF3L9 IOjndzWds7J33CKUU
Not sure how I feel about this.
Be like Robinhood, I guess :cool: https://apnews.com/article/business-...460405c30e0908
Shareies did $20.7m in revenue. if their sole income is via fees thats like over $5 billion worth of transactions. wow
If they will offer self-managed kiwisavers with reasonable fees and their low brokerage rates it could be very interesting. No sign of this just yet as far as I can see.
... deleted
We might be surprised, the mantra of the believers is "just keep buying". Most of the Sharesies users simply don't have the time, interest or wherewithal to bother with analysis and/or actively trading the market. And all power if they DCA in this market. It's certainly proved over the long term an excellent strategy. We shouldn't forget many of them are neophytes to stock investing and it's a low friction point of entry. Equally, many are using it as form of education and are becoming more sophisticated. The more participants in the market the better. Who wants to be a be landlord in this economy?
Sharesies as an organisation are clearly pretty ambitious,
https://www.sharesies.nz/kiwisaver
If they get into some kind of self selected kiwisaver it is a huge pot of money but risk of people losing everything is very real.
I would be happy to see some competitions in that kiwisaver space as I am currently with Craigs self selected kiwisaver and it is very expensive for the kind of service they provide.
Hopefully they will look across the Tasman and see how well "self managed" Super has done.
I don't think Kiwisaver rules allow for that.
Yup you can select your own kiwisaver portfolio.
ie
https://craigsip.com/personal-wealth...stment-options
Their tag line is "Create your own investment portfolio to suit your individual needs".
and even a FMA fact sheet on self selected options.
https://www.fma.govt.nz/assets/Repor...managers.1.pdf
The next FTX?
With reference to Rawz's quote insert in posting above:
The Sharesies Revenues won't all be from Security Trading Commissions
but likely to include other Services as well like the $10 monthly Live NZX prices,
Currency conversion commissions, any company float/IPO/Placement
commissions and probably other types of revenues,
so inaccurate to try to link it to Volumes traded based on 0.5% commission rate.
For high value trades the rate lowers.
Yeah I get that, and I agree. But it does show that Sharesies is now a credible platform that is here to stay. As I said, I don’t know whether going down the KS track is a good idea or not. Time will tell, but who knows? They might actually get people involved in KiwiSaver who currently are not, as having it integrated into the platform those people are already familiar with, might help to remove the “fear” aspect of KS.
2 billion currently invested is not to be sneezed at.
The thought of an inexperienced investor dropping all their retirement savings on AirNZ... There will be tears if they allow this,
Not going to happen, and I don't think there will be a self-managed option, at least not initially. This is Sharesies response to a question I asked them:
Quote:
You'll get access to a range of actively managed funds provided by experienced fund providers like Pathfinder, Pie Funds and Smartshares. We will have lots more to share as we get closer to our launch in 2023."
Yup high fees but I get to pick and choose and allocate my stocks. This has given me an average annual return of 12.72%.
Happy to take that and will be even happier if more organisations start competing in the same kiwisaver space. More choice is always better at driving down fees.
Yes a market changer among brokers on the exchanges they have, as for the Kiwisaver scene
IMO too late, probably only going to score a few changeovers and of those they will be expecting
the same deeply discounted rates as seen on shares brokerage.
Potentially done the right way, if it sees traction and KS changeovers coming in could shake
up the Kiwisaver market with some of the humungous fees being extracted for in places
very slack lacklustre fund manager delivery in the results and performance departments
with other KS Providers :)
I recently bought 12,000 OCA shares. That was before the dividend. Shares in lue of dividend are set at 80 cnts a share. Current price is 85 cents. However Shareies says they do not operate a shares in lue scheme.
This is my first buy through Sharesies. Do others find this,if so then it amounts to a hidded cost to deal with Sharesies.
Yes, Sharesies have dragged the chain big time on DRP, but they have confirmed that they will be introducing it in March 23.
I now use Sharesies only to accumulate shares. Once I have a decent amount in a company that offers DRP, I transfer them out for a cost of $5, so I can take advantage of the DRP. You have to make sure you time any transfer correctly though, to ensure your transfer has completed before record dates. If I ever want to sell any of those shares in the future, I can transfer them back into Sharesies at no cost, which enables me to sell with vastly lower brokerage fees.
Here is some details Digger
https://intercom.help/sharesies/en/a...s-instructions
I think the DRP has something like a 2% discount, so if you take your cash dividend and then buy more OCA through Sharesies, then will be 2.5% worse off than if you'd been part of the DRP.
I reckon that roughly equates to about $3.82 ;)
Just received an email from Sharesies outlining their pending changes to fees. Info here:
https://www.sharesies.nz/pricing?utm_campaign=pricing&utm_medium=referral&u tm_source=Share-Club&fbclid=IwAR0UrQ4_NOcNuD8YQHThYHZ2p42lJCRyI1Vh jnWP6DAPnFr3KKBk0ufdoB8
Boy, am I pissed. They are increasing the fee to transfer out, from $5 to $15!
Yup fee increase is a real backwards step, weird thing to announce just before Xmas. Ill keep the kids accounts running as fees still competitive for really small amounts but likely I will decrease the amounts I DCA through Sharesies. $15 transfer out fee is hopeless.
less volume of trades ( global issue at moment ) , less revenue ... increase in fee's is a attempt to stem the losses they are incurring. if they cant ?
It's their own fault that people, including me, have made full use of the transfer out option. Sharesies have dragged the chain on DRP for years. I've been nagging them about it ever since I joined. Sure, DRP is apparently coming in March - but it is too little too late. I would have had no issue if they had increased the transfer out fee by a couple of bucks. But $15 is unacceptable.
I wonder if they thought to build a massive customer base with a good product and loss leader fees. Then at some point (ie now) ratchet up the fees to near ASB et al and then haul in bag loads of cash with customers remaining sticky. If so they have badly misjudged how easy it is to change online brokers.
Except that for people like me, there is no alternative. So I am literally forced to suck it up. Sharesies set themselves up on the premise that they were there to help people on low incomes get into investing. People who could not afford traditional brokers. Yet now, the only people who will benefit in any way from these changes, including the monthly plans, are the large investors with the disposable income to place large orders. The rest of us, have been thrown aside as we are now no longer "needed." We served their purpose - got them set up - spread the word - encouraged friends and family to join - placed our regular SMALL orders every pay day. Loyalty is supposed to go both ways.
I think Sharesies will come to realise they just ****ed up.
People like me who have wanted to take advantage of DRP (for those companies we hold that offer it) have not been able to do so via Sharesies. They currently do not support/offer DRP. So I accumulate within Sharesies, then transfer out for $5 once I have accumulated (say) 1000 shares or whatever. That way my shares are then held under my CSN within the relevant share registry, and I can take DRP. There are some people who transfer out just so their shares are held under their CSN. I'm not so concerned about that aspect of it.
Sharesies is apparently introducing DRP in March - at which point one could argue I'll have no need to transfer out. Funny how I could then transfer all my shares back in - for no fee - if I chose to.
Does that help?
Thanks yes it does. I didn't understand the accumulate part but now you mention it, it makes sense. So you transferred out to take advantage of the DRP.
But would it not have made more sense just to hold your shares in sharesies, take the cash dividend, and purchase the equivalent number of shares via sharesies? That to me seems more cost effective and simpler than paying $5 a pop to transfer out.
I'm just using InvestNow to auto invest for the kid. They don't charge fees and I didn't like that sharesies account goes to the kid at 18 anyway. I only intend to give the money to the kid, when I know the are financially responsible.
As for the fees, going from 0.5% to 1.9% is a steep hike. Bit of a middle finger to their original small time users.
I guess a problem for shareies is they don’t make much money from FUM, only when customers trade. The monthly fee structure might work for some and provide reoccurring revenue for them. While disappointing, I’ll keep using Shareies for some small US investments and reinvesting dividends on some NZX companies I hold on my CSN.
So if I understand correctly... transaction fee going from 0.5% to 1.9%... which is almost quadruple.
Looks like my 2 year expirement with them may be coming to an end.
Initially, yes you are probably right. But as I accumulate those holdings to a decent level, DRP at a discount to market price (this year has been an exception to that general rule as we all know), is usually a better deal than reinvesting cash dividends at market price. The transfer out fee is a one-off. Once those shares are "out" all subsequent DRP allocations are costing me nothing - just the first one post transfer. If you get what I mean.
Exactly. Which is why small investors like me are pissed. Sharesies set themselves up on the premise that they were helping people on low incomes, with minimal disposable income, get into investing. They targeted us! We are the ones who got them established. Yet now, we are the ones they have chucked aside. The only people who will benefit from any of this, are those who are NOT "small" investors.
While it does look bad, if you take a look at the monthly fees if you plan to invest $500 a month then it works out at 0.6%, just need to do a little more forward planning. It is making it more difficult but they need to make some money or they won’t be in business at all.
I suppose for those using their service the cheaper fees for lower investment amounts were great while it lasted. An increase in fees is naturally not welcome. But there still does not appear to be a cheaper service available.
On the bright side, once those small investors have amassed a decent sized investment, selling may be much cheaper than under their previous fee structure and others because of the cap.
So it seems there is literally nothing one can use as an alternative to Sharesies, which means those of us who are dissatisfied but wish to continue investing, have no option but to suck it up and stay with them. Or maybe we just have to flag the idea of DCA and save larger amounts of money before placing an order (via a traditional broker).
You should see the comments on the Sharesies Facebook page (yeah, there are plenty from me too, as you would no doubt expect). Some of the more naive investors are already selling everything up and closing their accounts (yes, I have pointed out that this is probably not a good idea right now), others who are investing in US, are looking to move to Hatch. I think Sharesies have seriously misjudged their customer base with this. They have screwed their hopes of engaging current customers with their upcoming KiwiSaver launch too.
Dumb move and **** bag timing.
P.S. Anyone use Tiger Brokers? They are planning on introducing NZX soon, according to the person I just chatted with. There is also a sign up bonus $50 stock voucher via MoneyHub until the end of December.
At the end of the day they are not a charity and the old fee structure meant their net loss was about twice the income they brought in.
preferable for them to change their fees than go bankrupt and close up shop
I started the signup process with Tiger but they wanted my passport, haven't spent the time to read about how they store/secure personal data so I did not continue any further for now
I get that and I would have been fine with a small fee increase. But not a 280% increase. And not when the whole pricing structure is focussed on rewarding large investors at the expense of the small investors the platform was set up for in the first place.
That is my gripe.
I'm with you there :)
Online it takes a while to build momentum, but just one major screwup to lose it
IMO what is being seen is a really dumb move
Either someone has screwed up big time or some of the newer stakeholders have got greedy
We may probably never know the nuts & bolts behind the P&L account lines though.
If they played their cards right then they could have had both an increasing number of big fish
and the small fish happily sitting in their laps ;)
The small fish are where they started and now they seem to think kicking them all in the
teeth is okay ;)
With continued backlashing they might ease a bit; they have done it before with their earlier subscription model (although that caused a minor uproar too). And ASB (temporarily) backed down after public pressure when they were the first to announce major credit card rewards downgrades.
Hey someone should feed this to the Media :)
Nothing like turning things into a king sized scrum :)
Today:
re Tiger…..
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/130...-tiger-brokers
re Sharesies:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/130...saction-prices
https://www.sharesies.nz/pricing?lid=ft6att5xv65m
if you scroll midway down this page they detail some monthly plans.
for a small investor like me the $15 monthly plan covers $5000 worth of buy and sell orders for $15 fees
if you were not on this plan and processed $5000 worth of orders at 1.9% brokerage that = $95 fees
i think i have that right.
If you read that carefully and all the fine print it's stored by a UK based company which put me off it. Stayed with Jarden/Direct when I moved away from Scareese's as found it much simpler due to it not being what it use to be. I can see quite a few moving away now or them backing down after the backlash.
I haven't checked but you are probably correct. For people who have more to invest, the plans will save them money. But for the people that Sharesies started the platform for - those who could not afford to invest via traditional brokers, who have minimal disposable income to invest, the plans are of no benefit.
For the purposes of this discussion I consider a "small investor" to be someone like me, or those Sharesies beginners who can only invest $5-10 a week. If you can invest enough for the $3 monthly plan to save you fees, you're not a "small" investor by Sharesies terms (in my humble opinion anyway).
I know I am harping on. I'll shut up eventually, but it won't be today, and probably not tomorrow. I'm really pissed.
i urge everyone that currently uses sharesies to let them know how you feel
help@sharesies.co.nz
The more I look at the plans, I’m fine with the changes.
I do not know your situation, but I suspect you do not fall into the "small investor" category in terms of your Sharesies investment. For the vast majority of Sharesies investors, it will be cheaper to pay the increased fee than it will be to pay the monthly fee.
I realise that the increases might seem small, and the new fees not great in the grand scheme of things, but you have to understand that for people on tight incomes, with minimal amounts to invest, a 280% increase in fees, is not "nothing." As for the transfer out fee .... tripling that fee is extreme to say the least.
They could have introduced the plans, for those investors with more to invest - as a way to attract larger investors - and increased the standard fees by a minimal amount. I would have no issue with an increase of even 50%. I am not ok with 280%.
As someone posted on the Facebook group, Sharesies created a niche group of investors with this platform, and now they are screwing those very same investors. Clearly we are now past our use by date, and they now want to attract larger investors. That's the reality.
DCA weekly monthly or quarterly probably work out roughly the same in the long run.
Someone ran some numbers:
https://moneykingnz.com/sharesies-ja...y-good-or-bad/
Wont be long Jarden Direct will be increasing their fees.
the plans look great!
Their fees are already prohibitive. I emailed them to ask about their pending merge with Hatch, and whether that might lead to lower fees/a platform better suited to smaller investors. They said the merge is planned for August 2023, but they have no knowledge of how the fee structure might work after the merge.
There is literally no alternative to Sharesies for me, but a lot of people have already sold up and closed their accounts, or have cancelled their auto invest orders. Others have decided to simply stop investing, which is of course, unfortunate, particularly for those managing kids accounts.
Sharesies failed to "read the room" on this one.
Because the vast majority of small investors are not able to invest enough per month, to make the $3 cheaper than paying the 1.9% fee.
If I invest $100/month - the fee at 1.9% = $1.86.
If I invest $150/month - the fee at 1.9% = $2.85
If I invest $160/month - the fee at 1.9% =$3.04
So one needs to invest close to $160/month for the cheapest plan to be of any benefit. For those people, that monthly amount is all they can afford to invest, so the $500 cap is meaningless. What you need to understand is that many of these Sharesies investors are only able to invest very small amounts - $5-10 a week maybe. I am a bit better off than them and could probably bump my investment up to that $160 level, but not necessarily every month. People working shift work often have fluctuating fortnightly pay. Some pay periods my income is lower than other periods. Unless someone can guarantee they can invest that amount every month, the monthly plan is not ideal. There may be months where they can't invest anything but are still charged the $3 plan fee.
I get that for most of you here, these fees seem minuscule. I get that. But for those of us with minimal disposable income to invest, every dollar counts.
what if you are only investing $10 per week or $40 per month. I think that is the issue Justakiwi is trying to raise.
Or a casual $100 so now and then. Then it is not that great anymore.
But I do understand Sharesies as well. They are losing money hand over fist and probably grew too large too soon in boom times. Then we have a market decline, interest rates rising and people generally with less disposable income. That will have hurt them substantially with the additional workforce. Falling revenues and vastly increased costs do not help for a long term sustainable business.
I think we will need to realise that their pricing model was unsustainable and that continuing it as it was would have led to them not being around in a year or two.
What you are going to have to do JK, is the old school way that we all had to do it back in the day. Save our $ in cash or in the bank till we had a large enough amount to make a share investment worth while and then do the investment. Takes a bit of discipline but it is doable. Rather than purchasing small parcels of stock frequently, it means making larger purchases less frequently.
If I was investing under $20 per week I’d likely save up and make perhaps one or two purchases per year, or invest in a low cost fund, such as simplicity. Over time I’ve moved away from active stock picking and put more into passive funds as if we’re really honest with ourselves our individual stock picks often don’t create financial outcomes which are any better (and often worse) than a global equity tracker. Shareies is a great place to put perhaps 5-10% to ‘have fun’ and that way you leave the rest to actually reach your financial goals :)
Im starting to think the same. This bear market is crushing my confidence to pick stocks. Might just be easier to invest in some managed funds with a proven track record like BRM and IFT and then go S&P500 etf and a world fund etf. just be done with it.
Problem i have is not enough time to track every company i own while raising a family and working full time
Now that I have my portfolio where it is, in terms of holdings, that’s it for now. I am not adding any additional holdings at this point. Currently I am only adding to two of them. KFL takes care of itself with DRP and warrants issues (this year was an exception to the rule re warrants of course so I didn’t exercise). The other holdings I will add to as I can. There are times when I have additional capital to invest such as tax returns etc.
So no, I’m not making 52 investment decisions a year. I have a plan that I revise regularly, and simply follow that.
The plan could quite likely change over the next few months.