If you log in to Harmony, then go to this page: https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/inve...t=100&offset=0
Seems like there is a "bureau_score" for each loan listing. What is it? A score from Veda?
Printable View
If you log in to Harmony, then go to this page: https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/inve...t=100&offset=0
Seems like there is a "bureau_score" for each loan listing. What is it? A score from Veda?
Just been sniffing around, but don't have the skill to turn it into anything useful
This one is also good https://app.harmoney.com/api/v1/inve...hboard/summary
This here addon for chrome lays out this info in a much more readable format
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/d...mgkkhgoa?hl=en
I now have one loan that is in arrears where the region that the borrower is recorded as living in is South Melbourne. Anyone else seeing this?
LAI-00013114. From Feb 26 2015. Graded as a D4
[QUOTE=Wsp;635863]LAI-00013114. From Feb 26 2015. Graded as a D4[/QUOT
I dont have that one
It's loan number LAI-00052230. F5. Taken out on 23 December 2015
There seem to be a lot of $0 monthly repayments latelyAttachment 8287
I was wondering if I could get one of these.
I think I might know what a number of the $0 arrears listings in the reports are caused by
I have 8 loans in arrears, that have $0 "Amount in Arrears" that have not had a single payment in the last 31 days - some have not had a payment since June. Prior to stopping paying all appeared to be ahead on repayments and most likely have not yet dropped back to where they would be expected to be had they only made the minimum repayments
I could not with just a quick look find where in either the borrower_agreement
https://app.harmoney.com/borrower_agreement
or the
Borrower FAQ's
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/borrower-faqs
Where It says the borrower is allowed or is not allowed to do this, So I'm unsure if the borrower is technically in arrears or not. If Im unclear on this I expect some borrowers would be too
According to Harmoney Auto lend is due for release in the next couple of weeks.
Arrears report has been enhanced - now shows timeframe since last payment (0-30, 31-60, 61-90, 91-120). The last should probably say 91-120+.
I think this is a good addition, now I just need to work out a good way to use it.
And if only I could amend my filter to exclude those less than a few cents in arrears.
@Humvee
My arrears of $0.00 have had pymts within the last month. Might just be the overall loan is a small amount out, and at my level that is $0.00.
I have loans that are beyond 120 days in arrears, but are showing in the 90-120 category.
Thx for the extra statuses(?). I've added a report, it's empty so far.
@mjplost
My dashboard arrears is about 10% more than the sum of the individual arrears. Perhaps they use a random number generator for the dashboard number. I'm more concerned about whether or not the loan will be charged off, how many days since the last payment etc., not so much the actual arrears amount.
It's good that they're adding these features, but it does take the gloss off when the numbers don't add up etc. It has me scratching my head wondering how they these changes get a pass mark in testing prior to implementation. It also makes me wonder what else is wrong that we haven't spotted. Do we need to screen scrape our data every day, and run our own calculations on it to check they're doing it right?
Hi, If you email me at dan@harmoney.co.nz with the details of your account we will take a look at it. Thanks.
I was browsing through loans a few minutes ago an noticed that one of the loans listed has a monthly repayment amount of $0.00 and further more it was already 61% funded. How can a loan listed like this have any credibility?.
I noticed it on some loans yesterday also.
Yeah, it's sloppy. It happens pretty regularly. I find another loan with the same category, term, amount etc. and work out what the payment is.
You'll see from the issues mentioned even just on this page that data accuracy leaves something to be desired at Harmoney.
Have you raised this with Harmoney.? They may be unaware that it is an issue.
Withdraw a small amount from your account and see if your dashboard updates.
Earlier days with HM i crossed checked them often and of late .... have far too much on my plate to be continually double checking ... but will do a cross check before too long ...
I often Wonder (am concerned) that there very well could be a number of misplaced payments .... so YES. I, like you, wonder if there's an error or two to be found!!
Is everything ok with Harmoney today. I'm getting the attached using Opera when I go to the sign in page. Via Chrome and Firefox it takes me to the sign in page.
Hi Kiwi_on_OE,
Harmoney have incorrectly been marked by a third party as a potential Phishing site.
We're aware that some customers are getting notifications that our login page is a "Phishing" site. Phishing scams usually involve tricking people into logging into a site, such as their bank, with a similar looking page that then captures the username and password of that user. It's hard to understand why we're being flagged in this way considering it's our login page, and we're not purporting to be anyone else.
According to their website Opera relies on multiple third parties including GeoTrust and Phishtank to provide their Phishing warnings
We're currently working with the providers that have incorrectly categorised our site as such, and are working through the false positive process with them now. You may have seen a few months ago we had a similar issue with Norton, which we resolved promptly. Unfortunately, the providers are unwilling/unable to provide us any guidance on why we're being categorised this way, so it's difficult for us to get ahead of this, or make any changes to stop them flagging us on their systems. We're having to rely on being put on whitelists, which is not optimal.
Harmoney utilises an Extended Validation (EV) SSL Certificate. An EV certificate is a special type of site certificate that requires a significantly more rigorous identity verification process than other types of certificates. This means that if you're using a modern browser ( including Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer 7+) your address bar will turn green when you visit Harmoney (see attachment) This makes it easier for you to be sure you’re on the genuine Harmoney website.
Attachment 8312
Please be assured that we're not a phishing site, we have never been one, and we take all possible steps to ensure the safety of your login details when you're using our site.
To learn how to tell if a website connection is secure, visit the appropriate help page for your browser, for example:
Chrome https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/95617?hl=en
Mozilla Firefox http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/...tion-is-secure
Thx Andrew
Like applying for a loan, being told your score isn't high enough, and then being fobbed off with excuses. ;-)
My concern was that perhaps someone had hacked your site.
I can imagine companies from some countries suing if their website was put on a list of bad websites.
I've been investing in Harmoney since February and thought I'd share my results with you. I'm not as hardcore into the spreadsheet analysis as some of you, but I do have criteria.
I'm currently achieving 16.7%. At the beginning I was putting money in across all loan levels as long as they conformed to my criteria, so I have 10% in A, but now rarely invest in anything less than a B4. I started with $75k, but it took a couple of months to get it all out. My total investments are over $113k, which shows you how many rewrites we have to put up with. I've had nearly $900 written off, only $4 recovered with $240 showing in arrears. Current balance is $80,200. The downside is that it is extremely active investing; you have to be on there 4x per day otherwise the good loans get snapped up, sometimes within an hour.
I've also been using Lending Crowd. I don't have as much in there and I focus on loans above 12%, but I invest more per loan as it's secured. In Harmoney I'm usually putting in $25 for F-grade, $25-$50 for D and E-grade and usually $75, but up to $150 for B and C. I'm trying to get my weighting favouring C and D, but it's 32% B at the moment and about 23% C and 15% D. I never invest in weddings or holidays - that stuff is discretionary.
I had set up a separate account with $5k at the same time just to experiment with a different strategy. I'm now drawing it down since the new fees and transferring to Lending Crowd. I focused more on C-F loans and am at 16.2% with about $30 written off. I'm not putting any more into Harmoney for the moment - just diversifying a bit on Snowball Effect, LC, etc.
Attachment 8317
I see this kind of thing very frequently. Can anyone from Harmoney shed light on this (or preferably fix it). It's not a local computer problem as I've tried a deep refresh (shift-F5) and clearing my cache; it seems like a website caching problem. The ones in the image are loans 74728, 74708, 74696 and 74471.
From the web site interest.co.nz.
"P2P lender Harmoney asks Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister to 'clarify' fees issue through 'appropriate legislative changes'"
The Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act make it abundantly clear even on a superficial reading that fees must be directly related to the costs of setting up and administering a loan.
A charge tacked on to the loan "because we can" is not permitted under the act. A percentage fee obviously varies with the size of the loan and would have a challenge being regarded as a cost recovery as they are almost always of a fixed nature.
Harmoney having such a poor understanding of the craft of lending is a cause for concern.
Boop boop de do
Marilyn
Can anyone explain the Payment Protect, their FAQ just confuses me, and I have only the vaguest of ideas about what this product is.
I can see: -
- it's a payment waiver policy, so the borrower may be excused from making repayments
- it's optional for the borrower,
- there are two levels of cover
- some or all of the repayments may be waived
- if the loan is repaid early some of the fee is rebated to the borrower
It appears, but isn't clear to me: -
- the borrower pays for the Payment Protect with the fee capitalised into their loan
- the fee varies from 7.24% to 11.66%
- Harmoney's fee is included/excluded in the above
- Harmoney's fee is deducted from the amount we lend
- if the loan is repaid early, do we get a rebate from Harmoney
- there is absolutely no guidance on the tax implications
I wish Harmoney had given some examples. So I'll try my own. If I lend $100 to a Payment Protect loan: -
- Harmoney will take $3 or $4 in fees to start with
- the loan repayments will be set so that I should get about $108 to $111 (depending on the PP fee) back over the term of the loan
- if the loan is repaid/rewritten half way through, I'll get back $104 to $105, as half the PP fee is rebated to the borrower
- if the loan is repaid/rewritten after almost immediately, I'll get back the $100 from the borrower, and they'll get back all of the PP fee, but my net return will be only $96-$97, because Harmoney have taken their $3-$4 fee from me upfront.
Questions: -
- in the above, what do I get if the borrower dies on day one, it seems to be nothing.
With the lack of clarity about this product, and with no indication of how to treat it for tax purposes, I think I'll give it a miss.
I'm not that keen on unsecured lending figure going up to $70,000 ... just seems rather high in my view!
What's your thoughts on this higher figure?
whats peoples strat here on reinvesting or taking the money out?
If you recycle the money its in there for another 3-5 years (well it comes out in portions over this time)
I thought to as I get repayments each month to just take this money out.
Also does anyone know if their assessed default rates are based on a recent data set (ie the last 8 years or so when the economy has been strong) which would not be as relevant if the economy tanked and the unemployment rate went up?
They have your answer:
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-wo...eporting#score
Inclined to Agree
No matter how many times i read through Harmoneys blurb on this PP product I just can not see it is offering the lender much in the way of anything at all! ...
HM gather their commission & fees up front ... basically just by hard selling their product ... the loan is increased by that amount, so more notes to fill it, and lets the Lender take all the risk ...(unsure how each note receives their % of PP fee that's been added onto the loan amount!). which as i see it ... this all is still unsecured borrowers, that can just walk away from their commitment and by what I'm guessing is it only scars their credit history for two years ... then they can wipe that and do it all again! (I've never really borrowed much over the years so possibly don't understand how that credit history really works) maybe someone can elaborate upon that aspect.
I ask fellow lenders ... what advantages lenders are there with PP?
And ... there's certainly a lot of loans in the process of being repaid ... i can see that in the reports...
No doubt rewriting to expand their limits.
Cant see any advantages, probably because I too cannot make head or tail of it. I notice that already ther are several loans listed with this PP thing. I have put 1 note into 3 of them to watch.
Other than that I am still withdrawing most of the re-paids over to LC and now only investing 1 or2 notes in loans here. I was putting 4 to 6 in a loan butt got hit with a couple of defauts in the 6 range (C andD) that knocked my RAR down to 12%. It is slowly recovering, now 12.65%.
Happier over at LC.
Did a bit of a survey of my loans history over the last 18 months.
With over 600 loans during that time 86% are in the A_D grades with only 1 of 8 defaults=12.5%. The remaining 14% taken are E and F grades with 7 of 8 defaults=87.5%
I have invested 1 note $25 in one of these new "pp" loans. The outstanding principal on this loan shows $26.29, so I figure this will be the extra amount I will receive if the note goes the full term.
So I figure based on my stats above, if I only ever lend A_D grades, according to my criteria of selecting loans which I have made in previous posts, with "pp" added my return will be enhanced and my defaults will continue to be minimal.
Thx for confirming that the fee has been reflected in the principal. Can you confirm which of the PP Pricing categories the loan is in, so that I can work out what fees Harmoney have deducted?
"Payment Protection" seems to be a misleading description. I wonder if they will use it on their advertising.
I agree with Darchie about PP not offering much. It seems to have it's costs/benefits around the wrong way - if the lender repays correctly I'll get paid more than normal, if they have some problem I agree to be paid less. If normal insurance was involved I would expect to receive slightly less if the loan was repaid normally, and to receive a payout if the loan got into trouble.
It's good that Harmoney have provided this sort of thing, for those that want it, and they do a lot of stuff better than others, but at the same time they seem to shoot themselves in the foot with bad communications and strange features.
Harmoneys systems with repaid loans seem to be rather clogged at present .. i still have 18 loans sitting in repaid status, but I'm yet to receive funds.
The loan is for partial cover and it is a 60 month loan. The payment protection fee: says $1.98, I have $1.29 added to my outstanding principal total $26.29 so I guess the remaining 69c. goes to Harmoney if the loan runs it's entire duration.
What I don't understand is, that if the borrower defaults on this loan then will I lose all my principal that hasn't yet been repaid anyway???
Thx permutation. 69c of $1.98 seems to match their statement that their fee would be 15% + 20% ie. 35%. But the $1.98 doesn't seem to match with the table on their website saying it would be an 8.18% fee ($2.045 on $25) for an individual taking partial cover on a 60 month loan.
Have I got the maths wrong, or do I not understand what Harmoney are doing? (doing some tests, it looks a bit like the fee is rounded to the nearest $25)
I was thinking about these loans. They actually seem to be a way of increasing the riskiness of a loan from our perspective, as we agree not to require repayments in certain circumstances. Harmoney could've chosen to increase the interest rate, as is normally done when a loan is assessed as riskier. But I can understand why they preferred to take their fee upfront.
Perhaps there's a business opportunity for a new type of P2P model - charge everyone interest at 5% and then an upfront fee that is added to their loan to account for the borrower's riskiness. Maybe $5 on a $25 A1 loan and $30 on a F5 loan.
I'm also a bit surprised that the "full cover" fee isn't somewhat dependent on the borrower's category, or am I wrong to assume that risky borrower's are more likely to be made redundant?
I wonder if Harmoney will ever try to clarify this feature for us?
So I lose $2.39 - of my principle in fees and get no interest
Attachment 8332
Hi Humvee,
So your principal amount is -74 cents. So how are you losing $2.39
I am wondering if on your homepage, have you had a Lender rebate.?
I believe that Harmoney should compensate the Lenders say in the first 3 months the full amount because there is no ethical reason, in my opinion, why there should be any fee grab upfront for pp if the borrower decides not to play ball and repays the loan extremely early for whatever reason.
Reinforces my thoughts to avoid these loans for now. I'll wait until they explain them more clearly, and/or I learn from others experiences. I'm sorry for you that your experience has helped me, but thx. :-(
I was going to make comments about the fees, but I don't fully understand what Harmoney are saying on their website. I do understand that the 20% commission stays with Harmoney, but the 15% management fee is rebated. So I might assume/guess that the borrower gets back 80% of the PP fee and you lose 20% of the PP fee.
In permutation's example it appeared they added the net fee to the principal, but in your case it looks like it may have been the gross fee, although it isn't consistent with their fee percentages as far as I can tell.
I'll be interested to know what response they give you when you ask for clarification of exactly what has happened.
It seems to me like the main outcome of the introduction of payment "protect" is actually just a mechanism to re-introduce a fee that's taken from lenders each time meaning Harmoney can benefit from loan churn / rewrites again...
Unless I'm missing something?
To be fair, they clip the ticket by taking a fee on the extra interest too. ;-)
Good to see they've done a couple of examples now. Although it would be good to see an example of an early repayment scenario as humvee experienced last week.
One aspect that appears positive, if I understand correctly, is the margin lenders make on the fee. Harmoney take 35%, waivers are expected to take 24% (or is it 21%?) or 33%, leaving 32% or 41% for lenders. So their modelling would need to be fairly bad not to make money. But I'm not sure I trust their modelling.
I find it interesting that this is done as a waiver product rather than an insurance product. I suppose that does mean we take the risk if the modelling is wrong, rather than Harmoney if they provided it as insurance.
How do other lenders intend to treat it from a tax perspective? Presumably for a lending business the net fee would be income and waived payments would be expenses? But for someone not in the business of lending where bad debts can't be expensed (do I remember that correctly?), presumably a waived payment is a bad debt and can't be expensed? How many lenders will ignore the fee, and just put the interest in their tax return?
It seems to me that the ratio of 36 to 60 month loans has moved significantly over the last few months.
There are hardly any 36 month loans these days.
A sign of the times and the deteriorating situation most consumers are finding themselves in?
I haven't done a thorough analysis, but my mix of 36 and 60 month loans appears to be pretty much the same, perhaps a few more 60 month loans. It could be that the criteria I use just happens to produce that result.
The loan terms have definatley changed for me. In the first year I had 80% 36 month loans and now after 2 years they are running 50% and that is using pretty much the same filters.
I have sorted data from last month into loan purpose. I just convert exported data from text>column in excel then I can sort A-Z etc. any info I want to see.
Attachment 8347
Can the Payment Protect filter be turned off? It seems to apply automatically. I'm starting to get to grips with the Auto Lend feature. Will be interesting to see how this pans out. First impressions are that it favours smaller investors and new investors which is all good. I wonder if we are allowed more than one account.
You can have more than one account. The problem that I have found is that my second account(for my children) is charged at the higher rate of fees, as the balance is less than $10,000. Which is somewhat unfair considering the amount I have in my main account.
I'd rather avoid payment protect personally as the small gain you can receive from it would be better obtained from investing in a loan of a grade higher rather than risking the payment waivers. My opinion also stems from the fact I feel payment protect is geared towards benefiting Harmoney severely rather than the lender.
Another write-off today. :-(
But it was expected. Another write-off expected soon. :-(
Looking at my arrears, most seem to have had no repayments, or maybe one. Very few have had significant repayments.
I was expecting more loans to get into arrears as time went by, as per their Hazard Curve on https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/investment-risks
What sort of distribution of arrears relative to the length of the loan are others getting?
you have 8 loans from 625 in arrears. thats only a 1.28% arrear rate.. Not too bad I guess if your grades are a mixture, similar to harmoneys predictions also
Are your 8 loans actually writeoffs ?
I find I get many in arrears but have only had 1 in writeoff. Although i only have 150 loans at present
Autolend seems to be working fine and has enough criteria for me at present to cherry pick loans.
My only gripe is the loans they list in my arrears which show $0 as arrears. If it is zero then please dont list them in my arrears
Hi whitt, you were replying to my quote "permutation". Yes, until today I have had 8 write-offs(from 625 loans taken they are not arrears) 7/8 are in the E and F grades, have been investing for 20 months.
Today I have had 3 more defaults suddenly.
1 "D" grade the other 2 "F" grades. My default $rate is now 11% of my Gross interest received to date.
I tell you what, I am going to stay completely away from E and F grades from now on.
I was thinking that a lot of people are very young in these grades and I find it a bit of a shame somewhat that Harmoney allows the facility. A fair number of them go into default according to my stats and unfortunately some of these borrowers will get a black mark on their credit record for the future.
Politics getting involved
Emotional stuff - govt accused of putting 45 jobs at risk
http://www.interest.co.nz/business/8...-overrule-over
I am currently sticking to a b or c only now. Also I setup autolend data to the best of my ability using data posted earlier in this thread.
Older people of those who own houses seem to default less. Since there are plenty of loans to choose from I don't mind setting auto-lend to capture just these.
Can you do that? I can see you can choose Grade (A, B, C), and Residential Status, but you can't choose their age as far as I can tell, or am I missing something.
The filters don't allow me to do the sort of thing I want, which involves a bit of maths on monthly income etc., so I'll continue to do it manually. Perhaps I'll get off my lazy arse, do some screen scrapping and do my own filtering.
Looks to me as though Harmoney thought they had ticked all the boxes before they started business,so the Commerce Commissions challenges appear to have blindsided them.
The Commerce Comission has been very successful tidying up shonky unacceptable fees being charged to borrowers, via legal cases such as the MTF Sportzone case.Every motorvehicle lender changed their fees well before the case hit the courts.Job done.
Person to Person lending appears to be in the Commerce Comission's view just that Person To Person, rather than through a middle man, such as Harmoney.
It would seem to me either the Government has to change the rules to make room for a middleman ,such as Harmoney,or Harmoney goes out of business unless they can find some sort of "reward" that is both profitable to them and is acceptable to the Commerce Commission.
Letting it go on for years to be sorted out,as did the Sportzone case,does not appear to be an option to me.
As a holder of Heartland shares, I do have some concerns for the capital they put into Harmoney,and for the ongoing profits from the loans they have made via Harmoney.
I am not sure whether Heartland will be in any position to qualify any of my concerns at their upcoming agm.as the matter will be "coming before the courts".
Is it material to Heartland?.Yes.
Has anyone noticed the big lag when a loan is funded to when it updates on the dashboard. I have 2 loans today that were funded about 5 hours ago, and they still show as "in funding."
Come on Harmoney what's going on?
I have come to expect anomalies in the Harmoney platform and it is annoying and time consuming to sort out, so I don't usually bother. The arrears data is never correct and just a few days ago I ordered 2 notes in a loan only to get an error message and then after 3 more attempts I gave up only to discover later that all transactions went through. I had given up on 6/8 note investing but I just could not go through the hassle to see if that could be fixed. With the huge staff numbers they have I would have thought they could be more efficient. O well it is still way ahead of bank term deposits so will keep struggling on.
This is written along the bottom of the Dashboard screen
"Timing of data updates can cause short-term variances between the dashboard and reports section."
I only have two loans in arrears and the dashboard is 100% correct at the present time. The more loans you have is arrears will lessen the likelihood of the amount in arrears being correct at any one point in time. But in the end what does it matter what the amount is anyway, right or wrong.
Autolend loans would never hit the marketplace if they are completely filled by autolend demand. I think it would be fairer if autolend loans were allowed 15-30 minutes in the marketplace before going to autolend. This way, those of us for whom autolend is a blunt tool could still have a stab at loans which we think are going to be less risky.
The minority with time to cherry pick should be given preference? I don't think so! However still seems to be a similar number of listings so don't think there is an autolend vacuum cleaner effect. Same could be said of the institutional funding.
As an aside it seems autolend doesn't cover all loans. I have clear examples where loans which meet my criteria but don't get picked up. I think maybe it is where several enquiries have been made so is a good thing given there is not a filter for this.
Not everyone has autolend yet. I have 2 accounts and only one of them has been invited. Plus, people will take time to get used to it and implement it. Different people come on to Harmoney at different times of the day. Who has time to sit refreshing the screen the whole day?
Harmoney has stated that normally auto-lend loans receive priority in funding before hitting the wider marketplace. They do however state that it is possible for them to have less than 100% of loans being prioritized by auto-lend depending on auto-lend vs wider user demand. I believe it would be very naive to assume Harmoney is not investing for you in auto-lend due to the number of enquiries. You definitely will get auto-invested into loans with a high number of enquiries with the current filters not allowing for us to select our preferences.
If the intent is to give auto loan priority then that is another reason not to invest with them at all.
Yes, I agree but it does seem (at this very early stage) that many of the loans that don't go to autolend are also unattractive for whatever reason. It's almost like someone decides if a loan is suitable for autolend or might be contentious. I just wish an outrageously obvious desperate buisiness cash flow loan (described as debt consolidation) that I got today had been one of them! But I still think we are really lucky to have the choices provided by this platform. At Zopa I have no say on what loans are invested, not even the grades!