What was the original timeline?
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You've hit the nail on the head there FP. The article doesn't make any specific attributions around cause and effect, although it would appear at least anecdotally that the initial lockdown and border control could be the main reason. For those that were already infected, our health system coped well, although if numbers had increased we would have been (and still could be if the delta variant escapes) in serious trouble.
Whatever the "research", of my circle of elderly friends, many with on-going health issues, none have been offered a Covid vaccination.
Fair enough. He has a name and an academical title.
However doesn't change the fact that countries which looked terrible in
December 2020 looked quite flash in February 2021 and vice versa. Whether NZ looks good or bad compared to other countries on excess mortality depends exclusively on the arbitrary decision in which month you choose to take the data.
I guess - no doubt we look reasonably good, given that our Covid deaths are immaterial, but are we the best in the world? There have been a number of other countries with very little Covid deaths ... and whether they are on excess mortality better of worse is really just a pure random thing - what happened in this country in the last 5 years in that month and what else (other than Covid) happened in the month you pull the data. Add on top of that that many countries suffer under variable delays recording their deaths (making the data for one individual months somewhat questionable) is he really trying to draw conclusions based on a symphony made off white noise.
Have a look at e.g. data from Singapore, Iceland, Taiwan and Germany over time, and than tell me why you think (if you still do) that NZ did better related to excess mortality.
So far I think this is just B/S.
Lookout NZ. We are beginning to see the danger of having a woke, eloquent, intellectual lightweight in charge.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp
Tova O'Brien, who in recent months seems to have had some of the Cindy dust removed from her eyes, shreds Ardern for misleading the public. Either Ardern doesn't understand the law, or she is willfully misleading the NZ public for her own nefarious purposes. Ardern is shown to be wrong on so many aspects that you have to wonder why she would burn so much political capital on this issue....or she is genuinely too stupid to understand the implications of the proposals. Given that Andrew Little was prepared to throw out 1000 years of juris prudence with his intent to do away with presumption of innocence in rape trials, it's a coin toss whether they are both intellectually challenged or have an agenda of far reaching control.
As O'Brien rightly points out, politicising the March terror attack is also cynical in the extreme. Furthermore these new proposals would not have prevented that attack.
For all I didn’t agree with so much about Winston Peters, it seems that The current PM in government with a Labour majority uses a blunderbus when targeting new policy.
A scathing article in the Herald as well, written by Audrey Young, starting like this:
"In the four days since the Government outlined changes to "hate speech" law, it has become obvious from comments by the Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, that she does not understand them."
We don't need hate speech laws. Fair enough to legislate against inciting violence or vandalism. But if I decide to hate something, or someone, I'll dam well say so. (Not that I do - currently, but you never know who or what is going to get right up your nose). So legislate by all means but start by forgetting the inappropriate and corny 'hate speech' moniker. (Which would be close to impossible to define for a kick-off)
Young people are affected too. Admission to some University Courses can be determined by "verified" racial or national ancestry under the "Mirror on Society" selection policies. It will be interesting to see how criticism of such policies will be tolerated, and to what extent, under the new proposals.
Newshub poll of currently more than 8000 votes is sitting at 86% against the "Hate Speech" laws. Vote here
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/polit...eech-laws.html
Let's see if Ardern is stupid enough to push on. My bet is a "Reset" and they will have another crack. Ardern loves a Review and a Reset after sniffing the political wind.
Remember the Comrades speech?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rsxFaq6Ig
A leopard doesn't change its spots. Ardern wants to tell you how to think, what to say. She described compulsory QR scanning as an "inconvenience" in recent days. That's how she describes a removal of Freedom of Movement Rights. But hey, there's the royal wedding to look forward to.
Required an offshore party to write it, but a succinct summary (should be free to read).
https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/06...6-dc0d852dc7ef
New Zealanders returning after a few years abroad might wonder whether they’ve blundered into a parallel universe. A government that is pitifully thin on ministerial ability and experience is busy re-inventing the wheel, and doing it at such speed that the public has barely had time to catch its breath. To quote one seasoned political observer: ‘It seems like a hostile takeover of our country is underway and most people feel powerless to do anything about it’.
The government has done its best to ensure continued media support for this ideological project by creating a $55 million slush fund, supposedly to support ‘public interest journalism’ but available only to news organisations that commit themselves to the promotion of the so-called principles (never satisfactorily defined) of the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi. What has been framed as an idealistic commitment to the survival of journalism is, in other words, a cynical and opportunistic bid for control over the news media at a time when the industry is floundering. This is a government so shameless, or perhaps so convinced of its own untouchability, that it is brazenly buying the media’s compliance.
There seems to be some misunderstanding or confusion, there is not even any Draft legislation on this review of Hate Speech.
At this stage it's merely a Discussion Paper on the recommendation of Royal Commission inquiry, so yours & others anger & obvious outrage at a Discussion Paper seeking public feedback seems a little surprising.
The aim is to prevent individuals or groups stirring up & inciting hatred of others, which most people would think desirable.
Yes it's difficult to formulate legislation around this without capturing or omitting unintended actions, however, that doesn't mean its not worth trying.
Some through misunderstanding or with vested interests or political motives (JC) seem keen to misrepresent & frame it in the most provocative, polarising & divisive terms and sink any discussion before it has even started.
Well most of the country's political journos disagree with you for a start. Yes, they have put out a discussion document. One that neither Ardern or Faafoi seem to understand the implications of. Furthermore, Ardern has been downright misleading on what is proposed.
Ardern's government's arrogance is on full display, as is their true agenda. I've thought for some time that the media would turn on Ardern, despite the millions of bribes she has fed the industry. I think perhaps she has has lit the touch paper. How long before the "reset" I wonder. Methinks it will be too late in this instance. Her hand has been shown and the media smell blood.
Who's to decide what's inciting hate? Lately you're labeled as hating for speaking out about anything. I have some controversial opinions a lot of people share, but are afraid to say out loud. If I say them publicly and some crazy activist doesn't like it, what happens?
You know there was a lot of people imprisoned and executed in Soviet Union for unpopular opinions before people finaly got fed up and revolution happened. It's bit concerning that first world countries are heading in that direction.
See how cynical and desperate our government is. The threats described here are already covered in the Crimes Act.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp
Andrew Little and Ardern are currently two of the most serious threats to NZ society. Intellectual lightweights that would do away with our freedoms in a heartbeat to support their ill thought out agenda.
I was bemused by one of the explanations given by seeking reforming "hate laws" was that the wording behind some of the existing laws was "archaic". Surely there is a reason for that as the existing wording has legal precedent (including common law caselaw) behind the definitions. That helps creates certainty of definition and application of the law, a fundamental tenet, or at least goal, for a modern democracy, I would have thought. Amendments can be added to cover additional communication methods.
Up-to-the-minute or "on trend" wording may perhaps be more indistinct and uncertain. Therefore requiring subsequent legal argument (time and resources!) to help determine its meaning and application.
The govt has invited feedback & here's your opportunity to make a submission if you have concerns.
Public submissions on the Discussion Document open today and close 6 August.
Here's a link to the govt's Discussion Document.
https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/D...n-Document.pdf
I watched it and yes it was witty and suitable for a circus. However, I wish he spent a few minutes on explaining how he has blown $57 BILLION dollars on mostly useless and totally unrelated (to the stated aim) expenditure https://www.treasury.govt.nz/publica...on-expenditure
But he neither wants to nor can explain it, a bit like the PM and Justice Minister can not explain the proposed hate speech law.
Another double post. Hopefully site owners will fix this soon.
:t_up:Indeed it is,Robertson reminds me of David Langes quick witted humour . Never a truer a word in jest precisely.Even many national MP's couldn't suppress their laughter.
Yes, witty and close to the bone. Hardly surprising with the number of speech writers and PR people Ardern's government is employing. Sadly it was being used disingenuously to mask Ardern's problems with the Hate Speech fiasco. Robertson climbing into Collins over normal Party disciplinary procedure and likening it to suppression of free speech may have been funny in the circumstances, but is what any political party does, including Robertson's own caucus and Cabinet.
Just hope Balance learns to curb his hate writing in time.
Im so thankful we've got the far far better party governing.It would be an absolute disaster,catastrophic if National were at the controls , shiver me timbers.Meglomaniac Judith Muldoon with buckets of knives, just imagine it.:eek2:
Approx 16 months since we closed the borders and I have yet to hear a clear exit strategy from Ardern's government.
Are we going to live with Covid? Do we have thousands of dedicated ICU beds and ventilators ready?
All I'm hearing is further, more entrenched curbs on Human Rights. Compulsory monitoring of Freedom of Movement described by Ardern as an "inconvenience".
Hate Speech laws with harsh sentences to supposedly cover a need that is already catered for in the Crimes Act.
Her agenda is becoming clearer by the day. It has little to do with Covid.
Right at the time Ardern's government is drafting law on a replacement for the RMA, her government is ramming through SNA's and water quality measures, to have them in place beforehand. The RMA reform is meant to make it less restrictive and less expensive.
It would appear that they are making the current RMA so restrictive that anything will appear an improvement.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...t-pkeh-farmers
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...isolation-fees
Turning down advice to charge returnees while they are checking into quarantine or when they are checking out!
Another example of how clueless Cindy & her team of incompetents really are - trying to chase quarantine fees after travellers have long left the facilities and in some cases, gone over to Australia.
Alot of fear about change.Its way overdue and its happening with this doing govt.Fishing boats bringing in all the catch and cameras on boats a game changer for just one example.
Hate speech has to go.No place for hate here.
Reminds me of all the reactive , knee-jerk reactions over the anti smacking law. We are a better people for it, learning to find non violent solutions.Same with hate, learn, to respond not react, make an informed response, grow a little, great opp for me , you ,all.
The way I see it, it's just about balancing the rights of Free Speech against the Rights of people or groups to live free from persecution & fear.
Sometimes these come into conflict & you can't completely impose the Rights of one over the top of the other, i.e. not all one way.
Of course it's incredibly complicated esp in this age of narcisism where there's an obsession about self & identity.
I read today an influencer saying if you can be trans-gender, you can now also apparently be trans-racial ie a British born & raised person deciding they will identify as Korean despite having no Korean relatives & never having been there. Really? At what point do you respect & validate their sense of self v responding they're completely neurotic?
And what about the Czech President calling Trans-Gender people disgusting, V the Pope's discrimination against LGBT people & rights & gays in the clergy & describing acts of homosexuality as a sin to millions of followers ? (as does Destiny Church's Bishop Tamaki from memory)
It's a minefield!
No wonder Adern & Fafoi are having trouble defining exactly what they believe will constitute Hate Speech, but isn't that what this review is all about, and importantly isn't it ultimately for the Courts to decide?
You raise some good points.
The "Korean trans-racial" is merely taking the whole trans farce to its logical conclusion.
The Catholic Church has been consistent for two thousand years in declaring homosexual acts sinful. Israel Folau (whose faith, incidently, teaches against the Catholics) paid a high price for merely quoting St Paul on a whole bunch of sinful behaviours, causing the ARU to have to settle out of Court. Neither party incites violence, it is their moral position.
You are correct, it is a minefield. It is also a problem that doesn't need fixing. We have laws covering incitement to violence. Ardern and Faafoi have no idea where it could lead.
As for it being for the Courts to decide....I expect a competent government to enact laws on the basis that they know what they are trying to protect or enforce, and have ensured there are no unintended consequences. At this point Ardern and Faafoi haven't come anywhere close.
Could you direct me to St Paul’s actual words that you claim Folau quoted. As I understand it, Folau added his own interpretation to a King James Bible verse he summarised.
Roman Catholic teachings on homosexuality developed over time during the convocations of ecumenical councils.
And the hits just keep coming. David Seymour, who is proving to be one hell of an Opposition MP, further highlights the Separatist and racially discriminatory agenda of Ardern's government.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp
Apparently racism is fine and dandy with Ardern and her cohort. To be encouraged. Even to the extent of making entirely unsubstantiated claims about "Maori businesses". What happened to people being engaged on the basis of merit rather than race?
Read Galatians and Corinthians. Folau may have paraphrased.
The theology behind Catholic teaching on homosexuality, adultery and the whole list, including a bunch people don't seem much interested in, developed over centuries, but the teaching itself goes all the way back, and was consistent with Jewish teaching of the time. Christ just made it clear you shouldn't be stoned to death for it.
Anyway, if the Qantas/Folau saga taught us anything, get ready to lose your job, get a hefty fine or serve jail time for holding and expressing a moral position against someone on the "protected" list. That's where Ardern is headed, whether she is smart enough to see it is the scariest part. She's either too stupid to see the unintended consequences, or the consequences aren't unintended.
No I wouldn't. I'd say completing a statement with a question mark is a bit of a giveaway i.e. it tells me a lot. Critisisng and laughing at an adult who believes in fairy tales, Santa Claus or a religion is far different than crtisising someone for the way they are.
Excellent , thanks jonu for the link.This will encourage support and lift many maori to genuine higher opportunities, goals and even the playing field a little. Love the aboriginal and torre strait islander examples.Lets give it a try, a win/win.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp
then-Māori Development Minister Nanaia Mahuta said international evidence showed procurement quotes for indigenous businesses "resulted in increased wealth, financial stability and employment opportunities, as well as wider social and community wellbeing benefits for indigenous peoples".
Jackson, who took on the role after last year's election, in December said contracts with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses in Australia have gone from $6 million to "almost $2 billion in just four years".
Unfortunately it is a win/loss. A loss for all those capable businesses that miss out due to being the wrong racial group. Appalling! Shame on you for such racist bigotry!
How about an Asian quota? People of Asian descent number around the same as Maori in this country. What about Pasifika?
Where does your racial prejudice begin and end?
Will we have a LGBT+ alphabet soup quota as well? Why not, we may as well go the full discrimination hog ay JT?
A question would begin 'Would you say......'
'So you'd say ....etc ' is making a statement, although t is known as a 'leading question' but it's simply a statement in disguise, designed to extract agreement - as any lawyer will attest.
As far as your second point goes - your getting confused with the different types of fairies.
Wow a tantrum close to hate,,you have to own that if that's conceivable ,... to grow and be flexible to improvements for ALL. Meanwhile we adapt and grow to constant change.No room for stale stick in the mud's haters.
Hard to keep up for some.
A raft of new govt policies kick in tomorrow.
Benefits go up $20 and more next year.
Training incentive allowance expands
Paid parental leave rates increasing
Tourism businesses operating on conservation land have another 6 months of fees waived.
This gov t is working for all.
Wow a tantrum close to hate,,you have to own that if that's conceivable ,... to grow and be flexible to improvements for ALL. Meanwhile we adapt and grow to constant change.No room for stale stick in the mud's haters.
Hard to keep up for some.
A raft of new govt policies kick in tomorrow.
Benefits go up $20 and more next year.
Training incentive allowance expands
Paid parental leave rates increasing
Tourism businesses operating on conservation land have another 6 months of fees waived.
This gov t is working for all.
Forgot about
The healthy homes standard
EV and hybrids have become cheaper with the rebates.35% of kiwis currently buy them to reduce their carbon emissions.The transition is growing but EV's have to get cheaper and will do as tKeup increases and the tech evolves.
Forgot about
The healthy homes standard
EV and hybrids have become cheaper with the rebates.35% of kiwis currently buy them to reduce their carbon emissions.The transition is growing but EV's have to get cheaper and will do as tKeup increases and the tech evolves.
At what point does expressing your own particular moral standpoint become publicly haranguing certain groups of people?
I guess you can be free to embellish a religious text, reinterpret it and repackage it in a way to suit whatever message you wish to broadcast to the public. That may well be your own particular moral position. However there will be a conflict when your employer’s well-known position is to reach out and include to the parts of the community you are haranguing. If the employer’s image is being scuppered by one of its own high profile well-paid employees then there will be an incompatibility.
What a piece of B/S ... I find your post without truth and merit and it is highly objectionable and insulting.
Example 1:
My wife is (given that we don't live in South Auckland) just in risk group 3 re Covid vaccinations (otherwise it would be group 2), given that she has a health condition - and yes, Covid would likely kill her given that Chemotherapie previously weakened her lungs.
She is as well close to 65 ... but so far nobody has any clue when she gets her vaccine. We live in Canterbury, you see ... and therefore don't seem to matter for the government. On the other hand - healthy 20 years old in other parts of the country are randomly invited for immunisation.
Example 2:
Heard the story about people with a work visa in their passport "New Zealand the right choice"? Well, This visa is lying. There are many essential workers in our country who have been lured in with the promise that their family and loved ones can follow - and then we closed our borders on them (despite keeping empty MIT facilities). Our anti immigration minister - could hardly suppress his grinning on TV when he said that oh - what a pity, we now unfortunately can't let their loved and families into the country ... well, we all have to suffer, haven't we? He was clearly not interested in being kind (or just smart - remember - we do reed these essential workers, otherwise we would not call them essential"?).
This government might work for some comrades and some beneficiaries, but it clearly does not work for everybody. It does not work for us ... and the mess they are producing is getting deeper day by day.
Sure - they are increasing the benefits for some with the money they take from others - i.e. everybody involved, but that does not make them work for all. Maybe you just wanted to say the government works all of us for their benefit?
Inept, inhumane and cynical bunch.
Ardern has been caught out telling the electorate lies in the election campaign.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp
Within months they offered Rio a further incentive payment.
How arrogant of Robertson to dismiss it just because the offer was rejected by Rio. He's effectively saying, it doesn't matter that we lied, because the consequences of our lie didn't come to fruition.
Didn't 51% government owned Meridian Energy give the smelter a sweetheart deal on prices in the end? So they got a "subsidy" from the taxpayer one way or another.
"Government ministers declined RNZ's request for an interview."
That is not surprising as they are too busy trying to hide behind smoke and mirrors!
You have to own that.Reason over reaction any day, an informed response over losing control anger. Thanks for your opinion part of it anyway. Disagree with you and thank dog we havnt got the other party in Govt. Covid would be rampant here for one with national falling over themselves to open the borders early and beneficaries would be eating grass and burning their furniture to keep warm under Judith Collins the founder of Dirty politics.
It might be easier to understand your response if you try to write proper English and work on some anger management before you respond :p; .
Anyway - I give you that the NZ school system has huge gaps and failings (I assume explaining parts of your response), and here is some news for you: While Labour did throw a lot of money at the education system since it is in power, it did not get one inch better (the education system, but Labour probably as well :) ).
Look - we both agree that there are huge issues in our country - education system producing students just reaching the bottom of other OECD countries, our justice system has huge problems (and I don't mean the problems the so called sensible sentencing club would refer to) - and our health system is - while still surviving - getting frail due to too many useless chiefs and bureaucrats and not enough working Indians. Ah yes - and we are last in the OECD to roll out the Covid vaccine. What an achievement ...
We both might even agree that Labour wants to do the right things ... the problem is just - they don't seem to be able to do anything other than throwing money at problems.
This method works well if your primary intention is to get rid of money, but unfortunately it does not work if you want to get rid of the problems (you could even say - it makes them worse).
Remember the housing crisis? Labour did throw a lot of money at it but didn't make it a bit better. Funny that, particularly considering that all the people with Chinese sounding names (and anybody else from abroad) are not anymore able to come to NZ. We should have plenty of empty houses now, shouldn't we? Labour spent a lot of money and these houses just disappeared ....?
We talked already education. Labour did throw a lot of money at it pumping up teachers salaries. Did this improve our education system? No, of course it did not.
Our justice system is slow and while we like to lock people up, it is not always the right people and it is often not the best thing to do even if we got the right people. Did anything change since Labour arrived? Well, nothing I noticed.
Sure - it was good that the current government managed so far to keep the virus out of the country - and compliments to the hard decision last year to close the borders. However - Australia with a government as far away from Labour as one can think happened to achieve similar results ... so, maybe it was more a combination of good luck and our remoteness instead of Labours genius saving us so far from the virus?
But to close with a high (and I said that before) - I think Jacinda's leadership after the mosque attack in Christchurch was second to none. However - Labour is different to Jacinda, and at some stage we need as well to do other things than coming over the murderous attacks of a mentally impaired person ...
OK - so it was not all bad, but Labour did not fix so far any of the problems they promised to fix.
Did I say that National is better? I didn't, but same as Trumpista's like to outline that everybody is a liar (making their hero look better) are you now trying to imply that everybody is incompetent - meaning we could as well stick around with the current lot?
Show us that Labour can be better - acknowledge their mistakes and show us how they learn from them instead of just trying to pull everybody into the mud.
Too much asked for?
If I understand your post correctly - Just because the other side may have been worse, is no reason to gloss over the shortcomings of the side that occupies the Treasury benches.
The vaccine rollout inconsistencies may not all be down to the government in Wellington. The Health Boards are involved too. However The Minister of Health in conjunction with the Ministry has been responsible for setting priorities - including which areas and groups of people have priority. The government had also been under political pressure to target S. Auckland and particular groups for the vaccine rollout. With the travel bubble with Australia, was that still appropriate?
BP clearly gave examples showing that government policy was failing to operate effectively and target those with the most pressing needs. Clearly this government is not working for everybody, perhaps not even for some of the traditional Labour support base, who earn wages and are looking for a home.
Vaccine roll out as fast as supplies are coming in.To ask for perfection is not the least bit realistic,we have to learn to improve as we go.
Is it really asking for perfection if we just complain that government is playing with peoples life's by dragging the chain and by running a less that competent administration?
You always forget to mention as well that there is a reason that vaccines are coming in so slow to NZ - Our government did not order enough vaccine early enough. Last on the world ... well, in the developed world at least.
Nearly all other OECD countries (and many others including developing nations) did a better job in ordering vaccines and rolling them out - can't be that hard, can it?, but hey - if you are happy enough that we are still beating South Sudan (and some other mainly African countries) in the vaccination roll out, than maybe your standards for a capable government are lower than mine.
Is it really asking for perfection if we just complain that government is playing with peoples life's by dragging the chain and by running a less that competent administration?
You always forget to mention as well that there is a reason that vaccines are coming in so slow to NZ - Our government did not order enough vaccine early enough. Last in the world ... well, in the developed world at least.
Nearly all other OECD countries (and many others including developing nations) did a better job in ordering vaccines and rolling them out - can't be that hard, can it?, but hey - if you are happy enough that we are still beating South Sudan (and some other mainly African countries) in the vaccination roll out, than maybe your standards for a capable government are lower than mine.
You blame the "government" but it's not clear whether you mean the Executive (Labour in Government), or the Administration (government [agencies])? Obvious isn't it that the agencies are responsible for implementing the processes to meet the policies, responsible for the MIQ, responsible for the Vaccine programme, etc. Labour itself (Government) does nothing practical, the agencies (government) do it all. By extension, it could be any Executive party in Government and the agencies that implement the processes would be the same as they are now.
The fact you don't think our corona response has been world leading would be a strange concept to almost all international visitors here.
That there has been almost no lockdowns has been amazing for business, health and the economy.
Though they are failing on the hate speech law, housing and encouraging seperatism here.
Where did the other 15% of the prisoners go? Into hotels? Likely to be cheaper.
https://www.corrections.govt.nz/reso...ats_march_2021
Delete delete
You are just doing exactly what BP has been very reasonably & thoroughly criticising, by glossing over the shocking shortcomings with the vaccination program here in NZ and a total failure to develop and implement a plan to get NZ out of it's current totally unsutainable and unreasonable border policies.
Not sure what international visitors you are referring to as we don't really have any here at present. I have many friends & family overseas and most of them can not believe that NZ has no plan to join the rest of the World and manage our way with COVID for the next few years. Believing we can continue with an elimination strategy is just a childish fallacy