and if you want out you can't sell, the secondary market is a dead duck because no one wanted it, according to the survey results.....
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and if you want out you can't sell, the secondary market is a dead duck because no one wanted it, according to the survey results.....
I will most likely still invest in harmoney after the fee change, their returns arent bad at all (even after the fees and write-offs).. I have had up to 60% of my entire portfolio in it already, and i think it would be better to just watch how things unfold before i decide to pull out entirely.
As long as my RAR stays roughly the same, give or take a few. I dont see why i shouldnt continue with them
Assuming real returns stayed similar, then sure. My calculator says otherwise. I see real returns under 10% within a year. Not worth the risk compared to other p2p platforms IMHO.
Unrelated question,
Why does it seem like where my RAR should be displayed i instead get
http://imgur.com/edit
Is it something to do with not enough capital returned yet?
If it goes below 10%, i may consider other alternatives.. Theres alot of investment vehicles that make that same amount, that doesn't necesarily involve p2p. I've been heavily invested in the other lending platforms too, but there seems to be hardly any action on them
Based on my return of 12.94% last financial year the new fee structure would have dropped my return to 10.7% based on the 20% commission or 11.45% based on 15% commission. Currently paying just over 5% of interest in fees. I have opted for a conservative spread with 20% in As and 40% in Bs - I might have to reconsider the spread and perhaps use other platforms for the lower risk investments - first time I have seriously considered the other P2P platforms since I have been pretty happy with Harmoney.
I'm with you Art. I haven't worked out the difference the fee hike will make to my investments but at a current cost of around 5% I can't see a hike to 20% on interest only is going to be in my favour. I have stopped reinvesting as of today and will maintain a wait and see approach.Quote:
first time I have seriously considered the other P2P platforms since I have been pretty happy with Harmoney.
Personally, I think Harmoney, until today, did a pretty good job. They've F****d up on this one big time and unless they can prove that this fee change isn't going to seriously affect our returns, I will be jumping ship.
It will vary with a different interest rate but one loan I reworked...
$250 @ 20.03% for 36 months. Old fee totalled $4.18. New fee at 15% is $12.70. 17.5% is $14.82 and 20% is 16.93. Roughly 3 times, 3.5 times and 4 times respectfully.
Repayment $250 and total interest $84.67.
Now take off RWT at your rate (remember it comes off of the gross, not the nett) and your actual return is....
For comparison
looks like Lending Club of USA still only charges 1% fees.. Makes you wonder, they've been around for far longer than HM and still have modest fees.
Tho in fairness, the delinquency rate in Lending Club is far greater
Brian Barefoot from LC USA is on The Harmoney Advisory Board
I've got two issues 1) the size of the fee increase, and 2) the way it has been represented. The former is up to me to do something about, and I will be approaching the alternative providers. Here's my views on the latter.
The Dec 15 interest rate increases were done as part of their move from a variable/risk-adjusted fee to a flat fee, with the intention that borrowers paid around the same amount overall.
The theoretical example on their website uses interest rates from before the change, links/compares them with current interest rates, with the implication that the current fee change is related. I think that is pretty clearly misleading or deceptive. The Fair Dealing section of the FMC Act deals with "misleading or deceptive conduct".
Harmoney, you may wish to change the example otherwise I will complain to the FMA on Monday.
In a private email a Harmoney Employee has told me that if they did not do this they would go bust.
Perhaps the expansion into Australia is not going so well, plus all the advertising etc.
"Whoop, whoop......warning, warning"Quote:
In a private email a Harmoney Employee has told me that if they did not do this they would go bust.
Are you certain that service charges will be deductible for all investors including for those who are "not in business"?
Harmoney states on their website (my emphasis): We expect that fees paid by Investors will be tax deductible. Each Investor’s circumstances are different, so we recommend that they seek independent tax advice
https://www.harmoney.co.nz/how-it-works/fee-changes-for-lenders
So they only "expect". There has been no guidance from IRD and apparently Harmoney is no longer seeking guidance on behalf of the various types of investors in this new category of financial investment.
In an item about p2p lending on mortgagerates,co,nz an IRD "spokesperson" is quoted: Generally, for the lender to be able to claim expenses relating to their lending, such as commissions and other fees, they would need to be in the business of lending. http://www.mortgagerates.co.nz/artic...ax-advice.html
So for an investor not "in business" it seems not to be clear cut, So definitely DYOR. Deductibility of service charges is set to have an even greater impact on after tax returns after these proposed hike in charges are due to take effect. The tax treatment of investors' p2p returns needs guidance from IRD imo.
I do not post email without the other persons permission. I would suggest sending your own email to investor diservices @ harmoney
Moi? Never
I am TOTALLY and Utterly Divided at this point as to if I'll even continue with Harmoney .... their silence at this point in my view is doing MORE DAMAGE than good!
I keep telling myself they've cocked up Bigtime! And will realise what they've truly done and their workings of the new rates were in fact errors and the mistake should never of been released!
THEIR TOTAL SILENCE HERE. Smacks of Hiding from investors .... Well Harmoney ya gunna have to Front up SOON!
Do some damage control .....
Some good news today!! TAX Certificates are available Online for Download :)
I look at it this way, i dont care what the returns are so long as they are better than my next option - which used to be serious saver accounts now roughly 2.75%.
We are free to take our money out and do with it what we please. In theory they simplifed the product they offer - no longer are they taking your capital but now they are taking part of your earnings. If you dont earn - they dont get paid - whats the problem with that ? Any current loan continue with current rules the new loans have new rules. As investors we are the seagulls at the rubbish dump - they could take everything all the way down to a percentage point above the next option - and still have my money.
By taking earnings versues capital - they allow themselves the ability to market to the borrowers more money, and at the end of the day - more money lent more interest received - so it kinda of a better approach.
Again risk v reward.
There maybe tax advantage to this approach - ie you have to have earned the interest to have it taxed, where as before you lose your capital.
as before at the a levels sombody could borrow and then pay back straight away - which would leave you with less captial than what you put in - this approach dosnt have that.
Im no expert - but i get the feeling people have a invidividual loan mentality as aposed to "portfolio" approach ie loan x defaulted i loose $25 - im gunn get my pitch forks out - i wanna know where the borrower lives. Its simply not worth it if you have diversified your loans and the amount you have in the system.
My approach - oh bugger another default oh well, still getting 14% across the other loans so not so bad, im not gunna cry over it.
I dont understand why people take large postions in loans ie more than $25 with small amounts of overall captial.
ie 1 loan default on $25 is 100% loss.
2 loan defaults on 4 loans at $100 is 50% loss
20 loan defaults on 500 loans 0.04% loss.
its a scaling game to a certain extent..
Ps when the NWO comes ( new harmony order) comes - i dont think we should be touching f5 loans ? anybody else getting that result ?
Harmoney have certainly managed to stir this forum up this time. I have been with them since they started. Reason was that term deposit rates were tanking and I took it as a way to make up some of the shortfall. So far I am happy with results, I have gradually moved to less risky B loans and my RAR is running at 13.3% which you must agree is way more than the banks are giving. I have roughly calculated that, with the new fees my returns will suffer by $8 per month. (20k invested) Not a big problem.... Some, like me are also using Lending Crowd. I started with them 4 months ago and so far happy enough with the lower returns and extra security. However the loans there can be few and far between, the last gap was 8 days and the one listed today is filling very quickly. Although I was surprised at the amount of fee increase by Harmoney, for me, it is not the end of the world and I will probably keep re-investing paid-offs there and grabbing what I can on Lending Crowd and keep on complaining to my bank.
Their fees were previously unsustainable low for Harmony at 1.25% P and 1.25%
E.g. @ $200mill lent they are only earning about $2.5mill in interest fees per year and lets say about $500K worth of P fees = about $3mill of revenue. Obviously not enough.
Now their fees are unsustainably high for Lenders @ 20% - 15 %
E.g. @ the same $200mill lent example they are now earning between $30mill and 40mill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Obviously enough to run the company but that increase is totally over the top and extortionate.
Wholy **** Batman...on this example they've gone from $3mill in fees to an average of $35mill in fees on the same amount lent.
So the next $200mill lent after the 16th June 2016 will increase fees for Harmoney by over 1000% compared with the first $200mill lent out
That is such a massive change. It only causes far more serious questions to be asked of Harmoneys management.
How could the initial fees be set so unsustainably low? What were they thinking to start with?
How could they correct this by over shooting by such a vast amount? Please show your working on this one.
The old bait and switch at play for sure here. Someone is taking the piss out of investors.
And this was done under the guise to align Harmoneys interests with investors. Big fat YEAH RIGHT to that.
A flat fee of 10% of interest earned is more than enough for Harmoney to run and make a good profit on.
You got way too greedy here. It just looks and sounds so bad to make such a big move like that.
Now who wants to join me to set up in competition to Harmoney. P2P lending without ripping off investors and ridiculous see-sawing fee structures.
Serious Saver? thats prettymuch just my back-up funds incase i incur unexpected bills, at 2% net, thats just enough to cover inflation. Have you tried looking into Trusts? Some of them deliver 10% p.a. quite easily.. Not far off from HM and other p2p platforms. On a good note, , p2p is a very exciting vehicle for diversifying the portfolio
I think you have taken too much gear in the rear ;)
Do you work for Harmony?
Check your maths on your loan defaults percentages. 20/500 = 4% loss. not .04% big difference
The problem is rather obvious. fees have basically gone from 1.25% to 20%
That is like a loaf of bread going from $5 up to $80. How would you feel about that?
If you don't think that is a big rip off - good for you - You are in lala land or have too much money already.
No offence intended really. Just being cheeky
What's the story with rewrites? Aren't borrowers supposed make at least three repayments first?
I mean, LAI* 00063585 seems pretty suspect: a rewrite after ONE successful repayment, from someone 20-29 years old, supposedly earning $6,850 after tax, renting in Auckland...
...wanting to go on holiday...
...with 5 enquiries over the last 6 months...
Come on. How robust is the lending process? This really seems to be taking the mickey.
Set it up and sign me on. Sounds like there's room for another competitor in the P2P market. I'm withdrawing the money accumulated in my Harmoney account tonight. First time I've done this but they've pushed this one too far.Quote:
Now who wants to join me to set up in competition to Harmoney. P2P lending without ripping off investors and ridiculous see-sawing fee structures.
See y'all on the Lending Crowd thread...........
I've just have a look through some loans and noticed that rewrites are being given to borrowers who have made ZERO repayments. Are Harmoney lying? This is what they say on their website:
"What qualifies a Borrower to rewrite their loan?
A borrower must have good credit with a consistent loan payment history, at least three months of payments on time and in full and have capacity within their credit limit."
No, i dont work for harmony.
Your example with the $200mill is kinda wrong as well.
they collection 1.25 on the 200mill plus "INTEREST" which you seem to have forgotten in your calculation which could be a big number after 5 years. Especially if lent out at 39.9%
I tried to do the numbers but too hard.
Cheers
20 loan defaults on 500 loans 0.04% loss.
20 * 25 = $500
500*25= $12500
$500 / $12500 = 0.04%
Yes Steve, You are correct. Here too have had 'Virgin loans' re-written after 1 or 2 months ( not Zero months though! )
I'm sorry to say, Harmoney appear now to be Greedy, Lying and Money Grabbing cheats....
I misjudged Harmoney from there initial marketing appearances... That is myself and many others these days :(
Ill simply Take my Money Out as it is paid = Move all On over to Lending Crowd...
Think your maths is a little off there, you seem to be taking the fees on interest as a %age of the loan amount, not the interest paid. If they lend out $200mil with the new fees, annual interest paid ~36 mill (average interest rate is 18.3% on their stats page, not sure if that is the old or new structure but close enough). 20% fees on that would give Harmoney ~$7 mill per year, 15% ~$5.5mill. Same with current structure, I make it ~500k income from the existing ~200mil lent, and a similar amount from principal repaid. Still a bloody big step up from the current fee structure, I'll certainly be using the other P2P sites more in future.
I need someone to check the spreadsheet i uploaded the other day from that its roughly 2% at an individual loan level.
Income collection commissions whether it be that charged by lawyers collecting interest, trust companies collecting dividends and interest, real estate firms collecting rent, financial advisors collecting income etc have always been deductible as an expense against income. You would need to be an extreme worrier not to claim Harmoney fees against the income earned.
I don't see a mistake in your calculations, but look at those stats another way;
Your paying almost 7 times the fee (or 372% increase) and getting nothing extra in return, in my case because I have not invested heavily in Harmoney that changes to 9 times the fee (496% increase). I have done this calculation across my entire loan book, and if this had been in place since they increased the % on loans (December) I would have paid 570 % more in fees (approx, it's on the other computer).
Yes the return is still ok(ish) but to be honest I can get the same or better return with less risk elsewhere, and to reduce the risk with Harmoney either means going A or B loans (and then the return drops right down), or buying loan repayment insurance when they release that to the rest of us (and at a guess that will be too expensive to make it worthwhile).
I'd accept a 10% across the board flat fee, but 20% and for them doing nothing extra?!?! nope.
I have no problem with everyone making a profit and for the business model to be profitable, but the way I see it for there to be such a massive increase in fees (4 times in my view) one of the following must have happened:
1. Whoever developed the original business model got it very wrong and it was never going to fly at the original fees; or
2. The original fee structure was a 'loss leader' to develop the business; or
3. The shareholders have decided to ramp up the fees 'because they can' to maximise profits.
If either 1 or 2 they will probably get away with it, if 3 I think their competition will catch up with them, Harmoney ain't no TradeMe - well not yet anyway.
Surely they don't need to increase the fees 4x to make the business model work. Isn't the whole point of P2P having an online platform with lower overheads so that both borrowers and lenders get a better rate, with the platform taking a cut? But taking a 20% cut seems really excessive for this kind of business , perhaps 10% is more reasonable - In my view, they are being really greedy or need to look at their costs
Yeah, but a and b loans suffer at a higher rewrite ratio than the e,f risk loans - that alone erodes your real return. You may also have your capital eroded depending on when the borrower rewrites which you cant offset to your tax payments.
So at a individual loan level - it dosnt look as good as it used to - but now over a group of loans it kinda equalises out (not perfectly but you get the point).
Your not charged on your capital and your capital can be reinvested into another loan. Rewrites have zero effect (that i can see) - we dont care if harmony chases the borrowers for rewrites and everybody is happy. This rewrite side of the business would be a sore point for harmony and us investors.
SO they are charging you at higher rate of interest but on a smaller portion of your loanbook ie less the capital amount you invested - at the moment they are charging your capital plus interest.
One of the issues this new cost is more upfrount than over the duration of loan - which impacts on the compounding of loan amounts.
The reason im interested so much is ive being trying to write a program to calculate out the loan books - so that i make the best decision on how to invest for example loans compounding into other loans.
So for example imagine a system which mimicks defaults and rewrites over thousands of different loans and spits out a number. They have provided enough information to do this. The piece missing is a rewrite profile - which now dosnt matter. For example ive seen mentions of 20% rewrites but skews depending on risk profile.
I got the system but i cant prove the results are correct - so i just keep my mouth shut.
The entire system is no longer viable for investors (IMHO), high % of defaults at one end, low returns at the other. The only party (that thinks) they are winning on this new fee structure is Harmoney. There is nothing in it for us, other P2P providers work out better now, or money into ETF's etc.
The thing that I really liked about Harmoney was the low size of their notes, I could throw money in without having to think about it, I could easily keep my money working for me within the platform, none of the other P2P platforms currently have these benefits.
Your program has me curious, being an IT person, and Harmoney having such a woeful info portal I've been developing my own, I know how much is due, when, what is overdue (which is different to Harmoney's overdue), a full usable transaction history, graphs out the wazhoo showing all kinds of neat visuals (like since my last stolen principal I have actually been in the negative, still down about $2 over what I put in, but that I should be up $2 in the next day or so - Yet my RAR is going up according to Harmoney - 3% since the last official update?!?).
The only thing I needed the Harmoney website for anymore was downloading transaction histories and actually placing orders.
I hadn't quite finished it when Harmoney announced the changes (Just needed to make it look nice really), whether I will or not I don't know, guess I could still have investments with them for the next 5 years since I can't sell.
p.s. You forgot to shut your mouth, we all know now :)
Well you wont, because your investments will rewrite fairly shortly. This 5 year thing is a maxmium you will hold your investment for - your borrowers will move to cheaper rates, ask for more money etc - ie rewrite well before 5 year point.
I suspect about a third each year.
Has anyone received (or able to download) a statement from Harmoney for Tax purposes that states the Harmoney fees paid and write-offs for YR 2014/2015? I can't seem to find any of that.
Reports - Statements - Tax Certificates
Best email HM direct, as far as i can see only year ending 2016 is on their site
Thanks Knot, Darchie and 777 for the quick response. 2015/2016 has this information - but the statement 2014/2015 doesn't... :-( So back to HM to get some details ...
Anyway - not too pleased about the lack of information around the write-offs and their new fee structure setup.
They simply could have allowed investors who bought notes from their already owned 'to be rewritten loan' waive the principal fee part as it transfers into the new loan anyway. Many benefits for everyone from such an approach ..
The incentive 'invest more and get a better deal' doesn't stack up as there are simply not enough loans available to invest in, and as per Harmoney's top dog adviser's statement 'diversification' is important to stay within the RAR averaged data.
And for that reason ... 'I'm out' ...
I gave it a 1 year trial with $10k and if things would change again, I might re-consider putting in more. For now, it's solely going to be 'Withdraw funds' from now on.
Lets face it. As retail investors, we are just a bunch bottomfeeders. We provide only 25 percent of the funds that sustains the loan market. If all of us dissapeared tomorrow, HM would still function and be going strong. Institutional lenders can absorb the fees and delinquencies quite easily. From a business perspective: HM doesnt really owe us anything. If you dont like the fees. Then dont invest after mid june.
I tend to agree. But what would make it a whole lot easier to continue to invest with Harmoney (albeit with a lower return due to the new fees) would be the option to automate investment. Investing at the moment is very time consuming, having to login frequently to find out what funds you have awaiting investment, then not having suitable investments available meaning you need to keep on checking until you are fully invested. The returns could never be good enough to justify the work involved currently. I hope they really are working on a good fix for this - and before I get bored with the platform.
Everyone, don't panic!; I have made a few calculations from my own experience.
Investing for over 12 months now and my Rar is about 14%.
From the account summary page, my principal received repayments in $ terms are about 45% of my total loan investments to date.
I have had over 500 original loans which represent a good cross-section of the loans in the market, I expect the repayment % to continue in the future.
So till now P+I fees are 1.25%. Breaking down the fee components, 17% of the fee was for my interest received and the remaining 83% was for principal.
Hypothetically from June 13 (plus 30 days) if the gross interest payment fee was 20% and I applied it to my current calculation above, the fee increase would be 175%.
From the email it appears that it applies to new loans taken and so the total fee creep of 175% on all my investments would take 2 more years.
Harmoney are excited that they have delivered returns above their target so I guess they want to grab some of this lovely lolly for themselves.
Even after the increase I think my Rar will still be over 11.5%.
That seems a good way to look at it.
You seem to have had more repayment/rewrites than me. My principle repayments make up 78% of my payments (I'm about 70% invested in 3 year loans with a RAR of just under 14%). Which leads to a 200% increase in fees for me , from $323 to $975
As clearly stated, 17% of the total fees charged was for interest received. i.e. If I paid $100 in total fees P+I, the interest part of the fee was $17.
So the old system of 1.25% for P+I was much cheaper even with lots of rewrites. There were lots of posts here complaining about the fees charged on rewrites, so I guess we get the new structure as a result.
time for me to stick my neck out again.
Heres is another spreadsheet with graphs.
The fee increase is different depending on when a person rewrites or what loan types they have. It coule be argued that its more advantageous to us now with the lower risk loans as per the attached graphs (at %15 anyway).
Would be interesting to know how many of us are abandoning the HM ship.Quote:
And for that reason ... 'I'm out' ...
I gave it a 1 year trial with $10k and if things would change again, I might re-consider putting in more. For now, it's solely going to be 'Withdraw funds' from now on.
And not a word from HM on this forum since the announcement.
Perhaps their plan is to ditch retail lenders altogether in favour of their institutional customers. This would be a great way to exit that part of the market whilst reaping some big fat fees for those that wish to remain.
Made time to do my own calculations.... ( based on between 10K to 20K - so New Fee = 17.5% )
@ Current Rate of 1.25% to date = $164.63 Service Fess on $2,378.75 of Interest returned = 6.92% Fee rate
I calculate under the new scheme @ 17.5% the Harmoney Fee would be $416.28
That works out to 2.52 times the old scheme Fee
you gotta admit, its probably too much of a hassle for them replying to all the thousands of lenders filling their inboxes "wah, what happened to my $25 loan, why was it re-written?" "waah, howcome this note I lent got defaulted on?"
Better to deal with a dozen big institutional lenders than a horde of retails.
I guess they had to increase fees because we have effectively been getting the platform fee since the rate hikes! I have paid $760 in fees and under the new scheme this would be $1926 but of course against that you have to consider the extra interest. That's actually a hard calculation/simulation but in short the A & B's will be less profitable (maybe 1-2% drop in yield) whilst the higher grades might be neutral (or possibly even favourable) if the market will bear them. I bet Harmoney will still be losing money for a while yet as the industry is still in its infancy so personally I am happy to continue to support them in creating this new asset class.
ANyone notice one of the columns in the 'Investments' section has now changed to - Max term (months)? Used to be payments remaining didnt it?
FYI. I won't be complaining to the FMA about this. I still think it is misleading/deceptive, and I'll add poorly explained. As I see it, Lenders have been the beneficiaries of the interest rate increase in Dec, not Harmoney. So this change is a way of paying a similar(?) NET amount of fees to Harmoney that they were getting pre-Dec. I guess this is implied, but not stated, by their example?
A couple of other things I noticed: -
1) The interest rates on A and B loans weren't increased in Dec, so they're badly affected by the change. D, E and F loans had Dec rate increases, so although the impact of this change in Jun is big, compared to Dec we're still ahead, just.
2) the 15%/17.5%/20% rates are assigned to the loans when they are taken out. So if you get to $10k+/$50k+ loans, they will be charged at different rates. But as the earlier loans are paid off/re-written the replacement loans will be charged at the lower rate.
3) 12k borrowers pa(?) @ $375 fee => $4-5m pa, $24m pa int @ 10%(?) fee => $2-3m pa. So they could be earning about $7m pa. I wonder what their costs are?
Yes A and B loans will give low yields ..and seem to be highly represented in those rewrites. .. yet those investors (after June increase in fees) will find those rewrites their friend if they're trying to break into the next tier to get a lower fee snatched from them.... i will add though those A loans don't seem to feature in the arrears reports like other grades.
Here's another angle:
Worst of both figures 33% tax plus 20% fee means 53% gone before any writeoffs or
Then 33% tax plus 15% fee ... 48% gone - so rule of thumb one can round that to 50% (but I'm sure sour loans will be more of a loss than 2% over time ... especially with a down turn) so its an easier way to look at the loan grades when ya see the rate offered .. just halve it, it might indicate the amount you might keep for all ya hard earned capital that's at risk!
I do think Harmoney is being Greedy, as this platform is offering unsecured loans ... so I ask do you think they'll be spending more now on scrutinizing the loan applications? Or even allocating more to souring loans? ... I'm not sure ...
Its not just A & B Grade hit hard by this - if you look back at the interest increase a number of F grades got little or no interest rate increase either. Also what people forget is the high interest rates on E & F grade loans is because of the higher risk of default. Harmoney will be taking a massively larger cut of the interest we receive for taking this risk, yet they incur no extra risk them selves
Fee increase for a F5 Grade was 910% Fee increase for a E5 works out at 890%
I cannot remember the others off the top of my head but the interest rate increase for a f5 was 0% and for a f4 was 0.01%
So for me it will most likely mean I wont invest in A, B , E or F grade any more - so I need to decide if its worth continuing for only C & D Grade.
I don't have a problem with the change to the new method if calculating fees - the new way is the best way to do it - they have simply set the fee % too high. If they set it to 10% it still would have been an increase for most, but would be much more reasonable and inline with other P2P players in the market
I don't have a problem with the change to the new method if calculating fees - the new way is the best way to do it - they have simply set the fee % too high. If they set it to 10% it still would have been an increase for most, but would be much more reasonable and inline with other P2P players in the market[/QUOTE]
Absolutewly Agree
The thing I don't like is that the fee is on gross interest ie before charge-offs. Under the new fees there seems to be little financial incentive to go hard to recover capital on poor loans.
These are the old and new rates with calculated difference. I don't have data for F ( I focus on A to D with more weight on A&B)
C1 18.52% 17.15% 1.37% C2 19.67% 17.88% 1.79% C3 20.82% 18.59% 2.23% C4 22.06% 19.35% 2.71% C5 23.23% 20.03% 3.20% Grade Interest Rate (p.a.) D1 24.41% 20.59% 3.82% D2 25.80% 21.41% 4.39% D3 27.12% 22.14% 4.98% D4 28.70% 22.96% 5.74% D5 30.24% 23.81% 6.43% Grade Interest Rate (p.a.) E1 31.81% 24.66% 7.15% E2 33.95% 26.00% 7.95% E3 35.33% 27.18% 8.15% E4 36.64% 28.62% 8.02% E5 38.25% 30.36% 7.89%
Old "F"s
F1 31.88%
F2 33.93%
F3 36.01%
F4 39.61%
F5 39.99%
New "F"s
F1 39.22%
F2 39.36%
F3 39.61%
F4 39.98%
F5 39.99%
Agree. I think the service charge should be on gross interest only with a rebate for the service charge already levied on a note that is charged off. The rebate maximum would be the amount of the charge off. Later, if there is some percentage recovery of the charge-off then a corresponding amount of service charge could be re-instated.
Why, Oh Why do Harmoney have so many Errors and Inaccuracies in their Back End Computer Systems??
Has anyone else had the same Email today?
Attachment 8042
I didn't get that email but I too have been noticing several errors and inaccuracies.
I've got a loan in Arrears but shows $0.00 in the Amount in Arrears section :confused:
What makes it worse is having an interest based fee effectively front loads the charge because the early repayments are largely interest. For example on a three year loan just over half of Harmoney's total fees are earned in the first year so you are effectively pre-paying for the collection service.
If a loan defaults 58% of them happen happen in the first year.
Source - https://www.harmoney.co.nz/investors/investment-risks
i pulled the numbers from it and fitted the graph to their picture.
From the papers
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/8006...risk-they-take
Can some one check my maths on this - because to me it does not add up. Issued over 1 year ago the interest alone should have been $7+ How is it so little in arrears - with so little paid?
Attachment 8046
I say gross interest should be roughly $7.93 .. so minus whats received. Arrears should be more like approx $4.91
Because the loan has been in default for a long time ( 1 Year ) ALL the payments have been processed against Interest Only....
Only there have been SO FEW payments made that there has been so little Interest Paid over the last 1 Year...
Expect this loan to be Written Off soon - not great news but that's business!!
Agree makes no sense at the interest rate shown. Perhaps they came to an arrangement (a lower rate or interest holiday) because the borrower was struggling. Sometimes that is the best way to manage a poor loan. Pretty sure that I have noticed this before. Unlikely to be a computational error.
I can understand that happens but if that is what has happened shouldnt harmoney show that information to investors? based on info shown currently it does not make sense.
if that is the best way to recover the most money i dont have a problem with it. but that information should be openly shared with investors
One wonders where the $6495 monthly income goes.
Nice one Harmoney...
Attachment 8047
Where can you rent in Auckland for $199 per month - Or less if you want to eat at all?
Attachment 8048
61 posts all on Harmoney are you affiliated to one of the other P2P platforms??
I have been invested in Harmoney since the beginning and have found no problems it seems you are either as above and stirring the sh#t or
are having a bad trot with Harmoney.
I bet it is the former in which case the mod should ban you.
I take it you mean me? Not all of my posts are in the Harmoney thread, nor are they all about Harmoney.
I have no association with any other p2p platform apart from being an investor in loans.
Bad trot, nope but annoyed with them, yup. Many mistakes in loan details, poor stats, bad communication, and greed to name just a few reasons.
Check your facts next time before you speak.
incomes that low are usually some sort of benefit @ 300pw.. look on the bright side, at least they have income security!
If you have not found any problems with Harmony's systems then I can only think you are very naive. I have found numerous problems with their systems and I have been with them from the beginning as well. Even laid a complaint with FSCL regarding their method of calculating interest. I still have loans with them but am not investing in any new loans.