Wynyard Group capital raising?

[Leftfield]

Glad I got out of WYN at $1.40. However, stupid me still picked WYN as an outsider for the 2016 Share Trading comp, so my ego is hurting, if not my wallet.

[lastmoa]

Not until we hear some news. Too early to make that call.

Agree totally. News expected this month.
Also, not worth selling (at a loss) with other nervous holders ... Hod fire.

[moimoi]

It is very much worth selling if the share price is going to continue to perform so dismally.

For market integrity purposes the Company needs another NZX price enquiry.

A 21% fall from 0.80 to 0.63 was queried in late May and its down another 22% since, now at all time lows.

[RupertBear]

[QUOTE=Left field;631461]Glad I got out of WYN at $1.40.

Well done getting out then, wish I had :(

Dreading bad news and the SP diving to the bottom of the ocean .....

Fingers and toes crossed that this company doesnt drown and starts floating back towards the surface

[lastmoa]

It is very much worth selling if the share price is going to continue to perform so dismally.

For market integrity purposes the Company needs another NZX price enquiry.

A 21% fall from 0.80 to 0.63 was queried in late May and its down another 22% since, now at all time lows.

Disagree. Share price doing badly, and notwithstanding a disastrous cap raising episode, I see no reason to justify the SP being this low. Maybe we will hear why it is this low very soon ... maybe the opposite will happen. Think the snowball effect of nervous people selling. I'd rather not realise the loss I have and think the later, justifying that with the Telstra, Deloiites and other contracts we do have. Easy to be negative when all are negative. (remembering Xero in its early days).

[mayday]

Let's see what Wynyard can deliver on their HY report due this month.

Wynyard's FY16 Outlook given during AGM in June
• Focused strategy has actively reduced Wynyard’s serviceable market but not materially affected
qualified sales opportunities for FY16.
• No change to revenue guidance ($54-65M plus conditional contract $14.3M).
• Annualised cash savings of c.$17M have been actioned through a combination of headcount,
operating cost and capital expenditure reductions.
• As communicated previously, larger government contract execution and revenue recognition timing
remains a risk until ACTA business achieves scale.
• 1H16 cash position is expected to be broadly in line with forecast. Working on initiatives to address
possible 2H16 timing risks.

[lastmoa]

It is very much worth selling if the share price is going to continue to perform so dismally.

For market integrity purposes the Company needs another NZX price enquiry.

A 21% fall from 0.80 to 0.63 was queried in late May and its down another 22% since, now at all time lows.

yes. Surely a 'Please Explain' query is coming. Overdue.

[golden city]

If not on target. I think a downgrade forecast should have be out already

[sb9]

It is very much worth selling if the share price is going to continue to perform so dismally.

For market integrity purposes the Company needs another NZX price enquiry.

A 21% fall from 0.80 to 0.63 was queried in late May and its down another 22% since, now at all time lows.

Well there it is price enquiry by NZX and standard response by WYN all compliant.

https://nzx.com/regulators/NZXR/announcements/287022

[winner69]

Well there it is price enquiry by NZX and standard response by WYN all compliant.

https://nzx.com/regulators/NZXR/announcements/287022

Couldn't really say we think punters are getting a bit peeved with us and selling out could they?

[sb9]

Couldn't really say we think punters are getting a bit peeved with us and selling out could they?

Gotta love CEO's enthusiasm...
"On 20 June 2016, we indicated initiatives were underway to manage the potential of
revenue timing risks. Whilst we have nothing to disclose at this time, progress on
these initiatives has been made and we will continue to keep the market informed.
Yours sincerely,
Craig Richardson"

[RupertBear]

Gotta love CEO's enthusiasm...
"On 20 June 2016, we indicated initiatives were underway to manage the potential of
revenue timing risks. Whilst we have nothing to disclose at this time, progress on
these initiatives has been made and we will continue to keep the market informed.
Yours sincerely,
Craig Richardson"



"Progress on these initiatives has been made" almost sounds promising :confused:

[moimoi]

"Progress on these initiatives has been made" almost sounds promising :confused:

What so they have approached an invoice factoring company....??? ;-)

[golden city]

This is strange siuation

[warthog]

Didn't Mr Morgan grab a good chunk of WYN at $1.80 sometime last year.

The hog can't be bothered checking.

WYN is off the hog's list on the basis of ETHICS.

WYN help governments of the world implement Orwellian surveillance policies targeting the wider population in a misguided and expensive crusade to "stop terrorism".

They are failing (governments and WYN), and will continue to do so as far as what the hog can see at the current point in time.

[King1212]

Help....SOS....Mayday..mayday..mayday......

[winner69]

Help....SOS....Mayday..mayday..mayday......


Hmmm - 8% drawdown and 15% pa interest

Hope like hell seems to be the new strategy

[BlackPeter]

Help....SOS....Mayday..mayday..mayday......

https://www.anzsecurities.co.nz/DirectTrade/dynamic/announcement.aspx?id=4212577

Looks like markets see this as the beginning of the end - WYN is now grasping for straws. Just look at the conditions of the facility - which healthy company would be prepared to accept conditions like that?


The facility has a one-year term overall, with drawings available for a month
at a time (subject to rollover), and will be secured over the assets of the
company. The facility includes arrangement and commitment fees, and drawdown
fees of 8% and an interest rate of 15% p.a. on any amount drawn down.

Does this mean they pay on a one year facility first 8% when taking the money and on top of that 15% p.a.? This is 23% if taken out for a full year. Obviously - if they take the money for a shorter time frame it is still much more expensive - and this is not even considering the additional (not disclosed) arrangement and commitment fees.

[Bilbo]

https://www.anzsecurities.co.nz/DirectTrade/dynamic/announcement.aspx?id=4212577

Looks like markets see this as the beginning of the end - WYN is now grasping for straws. Just look at the conditions of the facility - which healthy company would be prepared to accept conditions like that?



Does this mean they pay on a one year facility first 8% when taking the money and on top of that 15% p.a.? This is 23% if taken out for a full year. Obviously - if they take the money for a shorter time frame it is still much more expensive - and this is not even considering the additional (not disclosed) arrangement and commitment fees.

OK, so yesterday in response to the NZX price enquiry they said "On 20 June 2016, we indicated initiatives were underway to manage the potential ofrevenue timing risks. Whilst we have nothing to disclose at this time, progress onthese initiatives has been made and we will continue to keep the market informed."

I guess the facility is a way to "manage the potential of revenue timing risks". Was that agreed to overnight then, between the price enquiry response and this mornings announcement? Maybe some people had wind of this and were selling, hence the SP drop in the lead up.

[winner69]

https://www.anzsecurities.co.nz/DirectTrade/dynamic/announcement.aspx?id=4212577

Looks like markets see this as the beginning of the end - WYN is now grasping for straws. Just look at the conditions of the facility - which healthy company would be prepared to accept conditions like that?



Does this mean they pay on a one year facility first 8% when taking the money and on top of that 15% p.a.? This is 23% if taken out for a full year. Obviously - if they take the money for a shorter time frame it is still much more expensive - and this is not even considering the additional (not disclosed) arrangement and commitment fees.

Wonder what a 'month at a time' means

If rolled over another 8%?

Whatever pretty desperate stuff

On the bright side it is only a facility - a backstop - might ever be taken up

[sb9]

Hmmm - 8% drawdown and 15% pa interest

Hope like hell seems to be the new strategy

Wow, that's very high rate of interest at a time when the OCR is record low @ 2%. And the facility is from their major shareholder Skipton, which if you put your cynical hat on looks like they are making sure to protect their investment one way or other.

If I were to be shareholder in this company, would have serious concerns..

Discl - Got out at 135 a while ago with small loss.

[sb9]

Wonder what a 'month at a time' means

If rolled over another 8%?

Whatever pretty desperate stuff

On the bright side it is only a facility - a backstop - might ever be taken up

C'mon winner you've been in the market for a long time, its not backstop its desperate in my opinion. And what changed the company to disclose this just a day after price enquiry notice??

[winner69]

C'mon winner you've been in the market for a long time, its not backstop its desperate in my opinion. And what changed the company to disclose this just a day after price enquiry notice??

Thought exactly the same

Governance?

[Scooter]

my take on it is: It is a very expensive line of credit, and I would have expected that the due diligence would have been completed and seen these guy's as very high risk of falling over hence why the fees and interest is high. The company themselves would see this as a life line by probably one of the only providers of credit left. It is not looking good for Wynyard

[trackers]

Its ok guys, because as per AGM just last month their costs are $57mil p.a less $17mil in savings = $40mil p.a .... vs revenue guidance of $54-65mil (plus conditional contract $14.3M) - So they're wildly profitable........right guys? Guys?

[blobbles]

Oh boy. Hopefully they can trade their way out of the hole they have fallen into. Understand their lack of desire for a cap raise as the SP is so low. Could be the beginning of the end though...

To think not long ago they pretty much said no to a share issue at what? $1.80? I can't remember exactly...

[moimoi]

""...with drawings available for a month at a time"... :-(

Financing the receivables. You have to wonder how much is left of the $30M cap raised in late March.

Thank you NZX for the "Please explain" as it appears to have prompted this "Update".

At least there is support from the largest shareholder in Skipton, seemingly not lot else to hang ya hat on here.

[lastmoa]

Its ok guys, because as per AGM just last month their costs are $57mil p.a less $17mil in savings = $40mil p.a .... vs revenue guidance of $54-65mil (plus conditional contract $14.3M) - So they're wildly profitable........right guys? Guys?

Very soon time will tell. Rev guidance in the lower $50mill range could change a few things. Admittedly not a good loan facility deal .here's hope they don't need to utilize it.

[mayday]

From I read on Glassdoor, "mistakes" had been mentioned several times in some of current/former employees' reviews lately. I'm wondering what kind of mistakes those were referring to and what consequences were?

[RupertBear]

So what happens to the kiwi saver funds of Milford Asset for example who I believe are significant shareholders?? They cant sell down right? So they must take a massive hit? Do they continue to hold and hope for the best?

[underworld]

So what happens to the kiwi saver funds of Milford Asset for example who I believe are significant shareholders?? They cant sell down right? So they must take a massive hit? Do they continue to hold and hope for the best?

I cannot see Milford is holding any WYN atm. Even if they do, must be minor. I am with Milford and not worried at all. Unit price $2.9290 and keep rising. :)

[RupertBear]

I cannot see Milford is holding any WYN atm. Even if they do, must be minor. I am with Milford and not worried at all. Unit price $2.9290 and keep rising. :)


From Milfords March report

"The Fund was also negativelyimpacted by Wynyard’s 41.5% share price decline, from $1.60 to $0.94, duringthe month.
As individual stock selection is important Wynyard’s performance during themonth was extremely disappointing.
On 11 November the company announced that it would be askingshareholders to approve the issue of new shares at $2.00 each to raise $30million. Its share price was $1.38 at the time. Wynyard said it was confident ofraising $30 million at a minimum of $2.00 a share.
The company made a major mistake by announcing that it would raise newcapital without having unconditional contracts with investors. It also made amajor mistake by not appointing an investment bank to assist it. Wynyard hasgood potential but it cannot afford another mistake like this. "




Maybe the shares are worth so little now they are hidden at the bottom of Milfords pile :scared:

[RupertBear]

So what happens to the kiwi saver funds of Milford Asset for example who I believe are significant shareholders?? They cant sell down right? So they must take a massive hit? Do they continue to hold and hope for the best?

I guess my real question is what do the big shareholders do when this type of thing happens?

[winner69]

From Milfords March report

"The Fund was also negativelyimpacted by Wynyard’s 41.5% share price decline, from $1.60 to $0.94, duringthe month.
As individual stock selection is important Wynyard’s performance during themonth was extremely disappointing.
On 11 November the company announced that it would be askingshareholders to approve the issue of new shares at $2.00 each to raise $30million. Its share price was $1.38 at the time. Wynyard said it was confident ofraising $30 million at a minimum of $2.00 a share.
The company made a major mistake by announcing that it would raise newcapital without having unconditional contracts with investors. It also made amajor mistake by not appointing an investment bank to assist it. Wynyard hasgood potential but it cannot afford another mistake like this. "






Maybe the shares are worth so little now they are hidden at the bottom of Milfords pile :scared:

That report said WYN was 0.75% of the fund at Feb - so at that time $5.2m

[winner69]

I guess my real question is what do the big shareholders do when this type of thing happens?

Often sell and get what they can for them .... something is better than nothing

Or they might be a believer

[moimoi]

Agree totally. News expected this month.
Also, not worth selling (at a loss) with other nervous holders ... Hod fire.

LM..Down a further 10% since your post.

You've been one of the few long term supporters on this thread..Still comfortable in holding..??

Using the share price as a measure it appears little confidence emanated from the Singapore presentation you went to....

[blobbles]

From I read on Glassdoor, "mistakes" had been mentioned several times in some of current/former employees' reviews lately. I'm wondering what kind of mistakes those were referring to and what consequences were?

Jeez. I just read glassdoor reviews. It appears they just threw out half of their developers, you know the ones that make their product, leaving only hapless management and people not willing to rock the boat.

If you still have money in this thing, my advise is to run while its still worth something. Messages from the inside speak of workplace cronyism/bullying/nepotism, a broken morale, developers forced to create software that nobody wants, management that has burned all shareholders money in snakeoil projects and a product that doesn't do what they say it does.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Wynyard-Group-Reviews-E895449_P2.htm

You will need a login to glassdoor to see them, here is a small taste:



Doesn't Recommend
Negative Outlook
Disapproves of CEO
I worked at Wynyard Group full-time (More than a year)
Pros
You will be forced to learn a lot quickly. There are a few good people working in every region, but you don't need to ruin your career by working here to meet them.
Cons
The products aren't what is marketed, not even close. Training is non existent. Documentation isn't there. As an SA your day job includes doing miracle demos to get deals across the line for sales teams who refuse to listen to you about the immaturity of the products, all the while pretending bugs in the system are you pressing the wrong button! You have to look police in the eye and tell them the software will solve their problems.


This company is really Jade with slicker branding. The senior managers are all Jade or Methodware and so is their knowledge of technology and even sales. They are so out of their depth it's staggering.


Wynyard is an R&D company not a sales company. I think that's why it's wasted so much shareholder money. They keep launching product developments to keep egos happy, but they're not anything sales have asked for and so they don't sell. Despite this they just don't build the basics properly. Have a try before you buy! It's obvious.
Show Less
Advice to Management
If you keep doing the same thing you'll keep getting the same results, maybe it's time to listen to the people asking for software they can sell with a straight face.

[blobbles]

Someone actually posted that they would rather post they would "rather have incarcerated than Wynyard on my linkedin profile".

Run far, run fast. They are unlikely to recruit any talent to right the ship. Unless there is a complete flush out of management and jade hangover staff that have a 1990s mindset for developing software, it appears to be a sinking ship. There is also talk of having buying sales, which if true is not something a shareholder would like to hear.

[blackcap]

Is this the end for WYN? Down to 35 now and no support in sight. Interesting what can be inferred from announcements such as yesterday's one.

[sb9]

Someone bidding 50,000 @0.05, that's quite demoralising isn't it??

[BlackPeter]

Is this the end for WYN? Down to 35 now and no support in sight. Interesting what can be inferred from announcements such as yesterday's one.

Well, I see there is some support at 5 cents / share, though it wouldn't stand the rush if all the sellers getting desperate ...

[lastmoa]

LM..Down a further 10% since your post.

You've been one of the few long term supporters on this thread..Still comfortable in holding..??

Using the share price as a measure it appears little confidence emanated from the Singapore presentation you went to....

Hi. I am not comfortable (goes withouy saying) but have not given up on it like others. I like the space they are in, I like the calibre and diversity of their clients and that they bad moves to cause this tumble were related to bad financial decisions (underline 'bad'). They do have a unique issue with notifying the market on deals v secrecy, which some cannot get their he around. I'm not buying but holding and awaiting earnings report. May be good move to bail but also may be well oversold.
I have large appetite for risk - others don't but still obviously bought.
Ps. Singapore didn't seem a write off. I got to hear about their progress on large clients which gave (and gives) me hope.
Pps. I do recall I had a few people calling me crazy at buying Xero for $2 and calling it a but at $7. Lol.

[mayday]

I am a bit disappointed in Wynyard's management team. While the sp is plunging, no one has come out to say something, e.g. sales report of ACTA by far, or whether or not to maintaining revenue guidance 16 as forecasted, to rebuild the investors' confidences. Well, just silence......

[RGR367]

Not really my style to contribute a thought on a share thread I don't hold or never held but hey, RAK misery needs company so this one will be on the same level soon although gut feels say RAK has more leeway right now :D

disc: still holding on to RAK :mad ;:

[sb9]

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/wynyard-secures-10-mln-short-term-credit-facility-shareholder-skipton-b-192815

From NBR not pay walled, read comments at the bottom in particular, very scathing indeed. Surely CEO's position is untenable now, board needs to move swiftly to arrest further damage to shareholder's value.

[RupertBear]

Heading back up..."bargin" hunters buying a few ;)

[silverblizzard888]

It was a clear over-reaction today and especially dangerous when people 'panic' and 'assume'.

[trader_jackson]

Definitely a bit of panic... although I believe the panic is justified (non-profitable company taking on debt??), just maybe not all in 1 day's trading

Disclosure: never held, recommended to get out of when share price was around $1

[silverblizzard888]

They merely put in a facility to reduce risk for the company, of course the terms aren't ideal, but this is a major shareholder saying they would rather loan their money for a brief period than be further diluted. People are thinking this companies going to the ground, but fail to consider that if a major shareholder is giving them such a facility then there is confidence they won't be going bust. My view of it is a cashflow measure more than anything else and actually reduces the contingent risk they had on delayed contracts.

I would expect management to front up with a statement next week to steady the ship. Sometimes the share price is really beyond the control of management. Remember price is what you pay and value is what you get. I don't know how value just immediately dropped so much especially considering there is so much reading between the lines. The company did say it was looking to break-even so maybe this facility is for cash flow in between the period where they fully stretch themselves.

[winner69]

More buying on way up today then there was on the way down

That should shareholders some confidence

[blobbles]

More buying on way up today then there was on the way down

That should shareholders some confidence

Really? Isn't the VWAP 36.54?

[lastmoa]

Definitely a bit of panic... although I believe the panic is justified (non-profitable company taking on debt??), just maybe not all in 1 day's trading

Disclosure: never held, recommended to get out of when share price was around $1

Based on that basis, you must"ve been telling people to get out of Xero at $4.

[trader_jackson]

Based on that basis, you must"ve been telling people to get out of Xero at $4.

No, they are fundamentally different companies... one requires singular very large one off contracts, the other lots of repeat small one off customers... product quality of each can be argued as well (not to mention XRO has always had alot more cash in the bank)... anyway lets not turn this into a XRO thread

Disclosure: I brought XRO at $17 when everyone was valuing it in the mid single digits... I sold it at $42 as I thought it looked a tad expensive ;)

[Baa_Baa]

Really? Isn't the VWAP 36.54?

Yes it is, today's closing price does not at all reflect the sentiment of the day. Clearly some saw value in the falling knife, but personally I'd be feeling ill had I not bailed out many months earlier, though I admit it had nothing to do with the calamity that has unfolded in recent times. Nevertheless I think it foolhardy in present circumstances to be buying on a whim that 'seems' good value, ergo a low intraday price.

WYN needs wins! Until they confirm those wins and particularly revenue guidance, this has turned into a severely risky investment. The lack of news is bad, but the last resort loan conditions are simply a terrible sign.

DIL for example went from IPO to 0.05, before reversing to be a minor darling of the NZX tech sector. That shook out all but the completely fearless and fiscally pain immune shareholders. They drive Porsche now. Fortune favours the brave (apparently) but perhaps they wait for confirmation of the bottom and a bright future. But WYN is not DIL.

Decide in haste and repent at leisure.

[winner69]

Really? Isn't the VWAP 36.54?

What I was trying to say was

Selling pressure (?) from open to 31 there was 260k shares traded

Then from 31 to close (willing buyers?) there were 765k shares traded

Seems 'willing buyers' were keenr/ more active than 'panicked sellers;

That's my story and I am going to stick to it

Not likely VWAP was going to be either the open or the close but somewhere in the middle ---yes?

[RupertBear]

So for a newbie like me if this company really is in dire straights why havnt the big shareholders like Sam Morgan gotten out already? I am guessing they must have a reasonably good idea about what state the company is in? I imagine someone like Brian Gaynor has kept a pretty close eye on them.

Also does Wynyard not have to advise the market if they are in a financial ****e hole with a profit downgrade or warning or something or can they just quietly go under and take us with them?

Thanks in advance for comments

[BlackPeter]

So for a newbie like me if this company really is in dire straights why havnt the big shareholders like Sam Morgan gotten out already? I am guessing they must have a reasonably good idea about what state the company is in? I imagine someone like Brian Gaynor has kept a pretty close eye on them.

Its not always easy for big share holders to get out, and in situations like the current it is basically impossible. Just look at the market depth and ask yourself, what would happen if some institution throws some 10's of millions of shares on the market? Right - first you would have a stampede, any remaining buyer would wait for the dust to settle and the price would go down to basically Zero - even the resistance at 5 cents could not withstand.

Re Sam Morgan ... sure, he was lucky with TradeMe. Not sure, whether I remember any evidence that he is smarter than other investors? Do you?



Also does Wynyard not have to advise the market if they are in a financial ****e hole with a profit downgrade or warning or something or can they just quietly go under and take us with them?


Well, yes (to the requirement for advise) - but they did. How else would you read the latest announcement? Nobody in their right mind and who is not in financial difficulties would accept in the current low interest environment a minimum of 23% pa interest.

They should inform the market as well if their revenue is likely to be materially different from their forecast. However, this is only if they know about this. Given that their business is quite chunky they can basically wait for the big (hoped for) deal or payment until the last day of the FY and always say, that unfortunately the 30 (or whatever) million they expected to come in before the balance date didn't materialise. And hey - they might be truthful.

Actually - isn't this what they did last financial year?

So - yes, at some stage they will need to show you their hand .. but at that stage (if the hand is bad) it is too late to sell the shares at a reasonable price - given that then everybody else knows as well what they are worth.

Obviously - they might as well come up with these amazing deals and revenue nobody expected. Who knows - maybe WYN is a hidden bonanza? Its not that long ago everybody expected that anyway.

Who knows, but don't expect people to tell you that they go bust before it is too late. And if you think about it, you wouldn't want your CEO to do this anyway, since if he does, than he just lost his last chance to maybe turn the ship around. No customer would sign up with them after a statement like that.

Just trust your management ...

[Leftfield]

So for a newbie like me if this company really is in dire straights why havnt the big shareholders like Sam Morgan gotten out already? I am guessing they must have a reasonably good idea about what state the company is in? I imagine someone like Brian Gaynor has kept a pretty close eye on them.

Also does Wynyard not have to advise the market if they are in a financial ****e hole with a profit downgrade or warning or something or can they just quietly go under and take us with them?

Thanks in advance for comments

RP if you look at the attached graph you will see two SELL signals were reached earlier this year.
8220
1.) MACD into negative in Jan/Feb
2.) The 'death cross' of the 90 and 180 day moving averages in April/May.

On top of this the SP trend has been negative since April/May 2015. All these signals are indications that allow little SP holders like me and you to opt out, however it is much more difficult for larger investors and institutions to do this without creating further panic.

As a former holder of this company (I got out at $1.40) I had big hopes, however I follow "the trend is your friend" rule and for some time the trend has not been a friend for WYN.

[RupertBear]

RP if you look at the attached graph you will see two SELL signals were reached earlier this year.
8220
1.) MACD into negative in Jan/Feb
2.) The 'death cross' of the 90 and 180 day moving averages in April/May.

On top of this the SP trend has been negative since April/May 2015. All these signals are indications that allow little SP holders like me and you to opt out, however it is much more difficult for larger investors and institutions to do this without creating further panic.

As a former holder of this company (I got out at $1.40) I had big hopes, however I follow "the trend is your friend" rule and for some time the trend has not been a friend for WYN.


Thank you, as a newbie I have only recently started using (very simplistic) technical analysis to help me. I wish I had gotten onto it sooner as I would definitely have made different decisions. Unfortunately I was too late to get out of this beast in time. I like many other have lost most of my investment and cant make myself get out now and take a massive (for me) loss. I know that means I may loose it all :(. Been a big expensive learning curve for me.

[RupertBear]

Am I making a newbie mistake by holding on when things could get much worse? Would an experienced investor get out now and and suck up the loss? Sods law if I sell it will go up if I dont it will go down! :sleep:

[couta1]

Am I making a newbie mistake by holding on when things could get much worse? Would an experienced investor get out now and and suck up the loss? Sods law if I sell it will go up if I dont it will go down! :sleep: Only you can make this decision, there is no easy answer. When I sold out of Chorus and lost 100k a few years ago, it seemed the right thing to do at the time and might I add that many experienced investors including large reputable fund managers also sold out at that time booking large losses.If I had held my holding until now I would be about 180k in the blue but of course Wyn is not CNU. I've sold other stocks like Peb and Sli for good sized losses simply because I just couldn't see the SP reaching my buy in price for many years, if ever. Others such as IQE I'm holding onto because it's not worth selling out now with what's left, might as well hold and see what happens. I guess it comes down to whether you believe the stock will recover or not? and who can say for sure either way?

[see weed]

Am I making a newbie mistake by holding on when things could get much worse? Would an experienced investor get out now and and suck up the loss? Sods law if I sell it will go up if I dont it will go down! :sleep:
That happens to me all the time. Do you have a plan B in place. I always have a plan B, so it will not matter if I lose or win......If I win, then pay tax, and if I lose it is tax deductible. The profits I get to keep are the dividends:). I have another little action I put into play, but will tell you more about that at next Auckland sharetrader meeting.

[RupertBear]

Only you can make this decision, there is no easy answer. When I sold out of Chorus and lost 100k a few years ago, it seemed the right thing to do at the time and might I add that many experienced investors including large reputable fund managers also sold out at that time booking large losses.If I had held my holding until now I would be about 180k in the blue but of course Wyn is not CNU. I've sold other stocks like Peb and Sli for good sized losses simply because I just couldn't see the SP reaching my buy in price for many years, if ever. Others such as IQE I'm holding onto because it's not worth selling out now with what's left, might as well hold and see what happens. I guess it comes down to whether you believe the stock will recover or not? and who can say for sure either way?

Thanks Couta think I am at the almost lost everything stage so I may as well hold and see what happens. :confused:

[Stranger_Danger]

Thank you, as a newbie I have only recently started using (very simplistic) technical analysis to help me. I wish I had gotten onto it sooner as I would definitely have made different decisions. Unfortunately I was too late to get out of this beast in time. I like many other have lost most of my investment and cant make myself get out now and take a massive (for me) loss. I know that means I may loose it all :(. Been a big expensive learning curve for me.

Is that Sam?

[RupertBear]

Is that Sam?

If you mean Mr Morgan then I wish it was and I had a few million to fall back on! :D

[Leftfield]

Am I making a newbie mistake by holding on when things could get much worse? Would an experienced investor get out now and and suck up the loss? Sods law if I sell it will go up if I dont it will go down! :sleep:

RB whatever you decide with your WYN shares, use this as a learning experience. (I once lost $30k on RAK shares highly recommended by my broker - I eventually quit RAK at around $1.20, full of the same doubts as you.)

Since then I've taken responsibility for my own decisions and more than regained those RAK loses. This year alone I'm up $90k.

So whatever you do, use this as a learning opportunity and don't give up.

ps I recommend this book as a MUST read. https://www.amazon.com/Intelligent-Investor-Definitive-Investing-Essentials/dp/0060555661/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471159856&sr=8-1&keywords=the+intelligent+investor+by+benjamin+grah am

[RupertBear]

RB whatever you decide with your WYN shares, use this as a learning experience. (I once lost $30k on RAK shares highly recommended by my broker - I eventually quit RAK at around $1.20, full of the same doubts as you.)

Since then I've taken responsibility for my own decisions and more than regained those RAK loses. This year alone I'm up $90k.

So whatever you do, use this as a learning opportunity and don't give up.

ps I recommend this book as a MUST read. https://www.amazon.com/Intelligent-Investor-Definitive-Investing-Essentials/dp/0060555661/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471159856&sr=8-1&keywords=the+intelligent+investor+by+benjamin+grah am

Thanks for your support Left Field. I am flip flopping on a decision, so I will wait and see what tomorrow brings. I think thats called denial! The 'sensible' decision is probably to get out now and suck it up but am I brave enough! ;). I will check out the book you recommend now. Thanks heaps

[kiora]

Thanks for your support Left Field. I am flip flopping on a decision, so I will wait and see what tomorrow brings. I think thats called denial! The 'sensible' decision is probably to get out now and suck it up but am I brave enough! ;). I will check out the book you recommend now. Thanks heaps

I suggest most serious investors have been were you are now.I know I have.In hindsight I find it pays to be brave.Learn from it and move on.Good luck

[Yoda]

Am I making a newbie mistake by holding on when things could get much worse? Would an experienced investor get out now and and suck up the loss? Sods law if I sell it will go up if I dont it will go down! :sleep:
Ahhhh, i remember it well.... When i lost money on RAKON, SLI , AIR, ..... AS IF IT WAS YESTERDAY. I sold out of PEB WYN after making $100 k and lost most of it cos i sold out too late.. Fortunately i didn't loose the money i put in .
a few years on and i have learned to set rules over feelings and sell if the SP goes past 100 MA

DONT GIVE UP. This is not a game of luck and chance. If the news is bad sell, and go into something else less volatile and goes up steady. Follow trends. Only you can decide, but i have learned to follow rules not feelings ( most of the time ) and do it quick.
people may tell you anything to save face..ie CEOs n directors etc , but numbers never lie, but sometimes you just have to follow the crowd. And never have all your money in one place......but you know that.....

[silverblizzard888]

Normally these decisions are easier to make when you consider before buying into the stock why you wanted to buy it in the first place. What were those factors and have those factors change dramatically enough to warrant you to wanting to sell. Your aim is to build discipline over anything else. If you consider what a difficult position you have put yourself in this time, then next stock you consider investing in you should factor this very same situation in there, ask yourself would you still act the same way as you did with WYN. If you can build this kind of discipline then making decisions become easier as oppose to waiting till the moment and letting your emotions comprise your decision making. Imagine you buy a stock and the price goes down, most people will feel the urge to sell or it makes them terribly uncomfortable, but if we take a page out of Buffett's book, he views prices dropping as a good thing if its a company he likes cause it means he can buy more of it. Most buy into a company with good feelings and loving what it does, but many really don't know how much they hate the company until they see the share price drop.

You will make money consistently only when you build the right discipline and can act regardless of what the price ticker says. For me I try not to think about a company as being simply good or bad, but on a value basis, so my risk is judged on the price that I pay for it. If you take the approach of Benjamin Graham, there was no bad company as long as its assets out weighed its liabilities and the pricing of the share was below this net asset value. Buffett has reaffirmed he would take the Graham approach if he was managing small amounts of money, but since hes isn't he has to consider buying great companies that hes look at the story and feels the factors are reasonable enough, he can buy it with a 'margin of safety' and when there are issues with the company, sooner or later even the good ones will have them, that the price you pay for it is still alright and that the moat around the companies products and services allow it to restore its original value then exceed it after.

Regarding a direct look into Wynyard my view is the company has been affected by 'lumpy' contracts and when they get delayed well it doesn't look good at all and slows the progress of the company. I still consider the area of business they are in is a very good one, but what has my concern is the 'moral hazard' of management who have spent 'excessively' compared to the results they have gotten. There has been changing factors of late, like a change in the board, some restructuring, aim towards break-even, new credit facility and reduction in expenses. I take thoses as positives, though the credit facility can also be viewed negatively for the terms in it, but I view its good a major shareholder is backing it meaning this company probably won't be going to zero anytime soon, but its not the best situation either. To value it precisely is hard, for me I think its trading at a undervalued basis if we consider there next forecast revenue is 50-60 million, so currently valuation is one times revenue and they have cash in the bank and if they can improve the situation then all of a sudden the outlook of the company looks quite different and value will dramatically change. Of course it can go the other way and they still overspend and can't lock in contracts or delay them and they can't raise cash. The level of risk is higher than most companies, but its kind of what you get when you invest in these growth companies. If you know you don't ever want to be put into this situation in the future then you really need to consider the level of risk you take. Greed sometimes gets the mind to think in the clouds, but you must definitely bring yourself down to earth and make decisions that are appropriate and take consistent and reasonable returns as opposes to wanting extremely high returns in businesses you don't know, with risk factors that could wipe out most of your investment.

Everyone feels like a genius when they are making money and are quick to blame bad luck when they lose it. When you lose money you don't blame bad luck and nor do you need an excuse why you lost money, you just need to accept it as a reality and learn from it. Why did it go wrong and was there anything you could have done to avoid it? If you have an excuse every time you lose money, then very soon you will be saying the 4 famous words Sir John Templeton knows many investors will say 'this time is different", when in reality it really isn't, which leads to the point that some investors are just insane, they keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Just my two cents anyway, hope it helps.

[RupertBear]

Normally these decisions are easier to make when you consider before buying into the stock why you wanted to buy it in the first place. What were those factors and have those factors change dramatically enough to warrant you to wanting to sell. Your aim is to build discipline over anything else. If you consider what a difficult position you have put yourself in this time, then next stock you consider investing in you should factor this very same situation in there, ask yourself would you still act the same way as you did with WYN. If you can build this kind of discipline then making decisions become easier as oppose to waiting till the moment and letting your emotions comprise your decision making. Imagine you buy a stock and the price goes down, most people will feel the urge to sell or it makes them terribly uncomfortable, but if we take a page out of Buffett's book, he views prices dropping as a good thing if its a company he likes cause it means he can buy more of it. Most buy into a company with good feelings and loving what it does, but many really don't know how much they hate the company until they see the share price drop.

You will make money consistently only when you build the right discipline and can act regardless of what the price ticker says. For me I try not to think about a company as being simply good or bad, but on a value basis, so my risk is judged on the price that I pay for it. If you take the approach of Benjamin Graham, there was no bad company as long as its assets out weighed its liabilities and the pricing of the share was below this net asset value. Buffett has reaffirmed he would take the Graham approach if he was managing small amounts of money, but since hes isn't he has to consider buying great companies that hes look at the story and feels the factors are reasonable enough, he can buy it with a 'margin of safety' and when there are issues with the company, sooner or later even the good ones will have them, that the price you pay for it is still alright and that the moat around the companies products and services allow it to restore its original value then exceed it after.

Regarding a direct look into Wynyard my view is the company has been affected by 'lumpy' contracts and when they get delayed well it doesn't look good at all and slows the progress of the company. I still consider the area of business they are in is a very good one, but what has my concern is the 'moral hazard' of management who have spent 'excessively' compared to the results they have gotten. There has been changing factors of late, like a change in the board, some restructuring, aim towards break-even, new credit facility and reduction in expenses. I take thoses as positives, though the credit facility can also be viewed negatively for the terms in it, but I view its good a major shareholder is backing it meaning this company probably won't be going to zero anytime soon, but its not the best situation either. To value it precisely is hard, for me I think its trading at a undervalued basis if we consider there next forecast revenue is 50-60 million, so currently valuation is one times revenue and they have cash in the bank and if they can improve the situation then all of a sudden the outlook of the company looks quite different and value will dramatically change. Of course it can go the other way and they still overspend and can't lock in contracts or delay them and they can't raise cash. The level of risk is higher than most companies, but its kind of what you get when you invest in these growth companies. If you know you don't ever want to be put into this situation in the future then you really need to consider the level of risk you take. Greed sometimes gets the mind to think in the clouds, but you must definitely bring yourself down to earth and make decisions that are appropriate and take consistent and reasonable returns as opposes to wanting extremely high returns in businesses you don't know, with risk factors that could wipe out most of your investment.

Everyone feels like a genius when they are making money and are quick to blame bad luck when they lose it. When you lose money you don't blame bad luck and nor do you need an excuse why you lost money, you just need to accept it as a reality and learn from it. Why did it go wrong and was there anything you could have done to avoid it? If you have an excuse every time you lose money, then very soon you will be saying the 4 famous words Sir John Templeton knows many investors will say 'this time is different", when in reality it really isn't, which leads to the point that some investors are just insane, they keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Just my two cents anyway, hope it helps.

WOW thanks heaps for your two cents and to all the other share traders who have posted helpful supportive comments. It helps to know other people have been in similar positions, taken losses, survived and moved on.

I think I let myself be seduced by the early Wynyard hype. I started off as a very small newbie investor but got overexcited as the share price went up and up and bought a few more everytime there was a slight dip. I ended up investing more than I was ever comfortable with but I reassured myself that Wynyard was "the one"! I was full of dreams and full of ignorance. I tried to run before I learnt to walk and I have fallen on my face because of that. Ouch. But life goes on and valuable lessons have been learned.

Thanks again for your insights I really appreciate everyones help

cheers

[couta1]

Yes RB many of us were sucked into the hype of these tech companies a few years ago and a lot of that hype was created on this forum. Apart from whether Wyn will survive let alone get back to $3,think of some of the others, how long will it take Xro to get back to $45, Peb back to $1.70 or SLi back to $2.80 and there are others, a pretty grim picture if you bought in at or near those prices, waiting, hoping that things will work out.

[kiora]

Yes RB many of us were sucked into the hype of these tech companies a few years ago and a lot of that hype was created on this forum. Apart from whether Wyn will survive let alone get back to $3,think of some of the others, how long will it take Xro to get back to $45, Peb back to $1.70 or SLi back to $2.80 and there are others, a pretty grim picture if you bought in at or near those prices, waiting, hoping that things will work out.

And the longer it takes for another investor/s to see real value and bump the share price up the less likely it will happen

[RupertBear]

I see Wynyard has responded to questions on NBR but it is behind the paywall. Well why dont they front up and let shareholders know what is going on. :mad ;:

[BeeBop]

I see Wynyard has responded to questions on NBR but it is behind the paywall. Well why dont they front up and let shareholders know what is going on. :mad ;:

Any chance you can copy it

[lastmoa]

Up over 9% on $2000 of shares traded. Such is the influence small transactions can have on SP. Easy to see how the large panicky gap-downs can happen, huh.

[blobbles]

The trend is your friend... not daily price movements. Up 10%, down 12%, up 5%, down 8%, up 3%, down 15%... unless you are really good at day trading, I wouldn't get involved.

Besides, as a software developer myself, I would be deeply suspicious of any software where former engineers are leaving under a cloud of poor management/morale and software that doesn't do what it say it does. Sure, one or two dissatisfied engineers might make bold and not quite accurate statements, but the trend is also your friend when it comes to looking at employee reviews of companies. If there are a whole bunch of negative reviews and the occasional exceptional one that does not address any of the statements of the negative ones, I would be deeply suspicious.

Buyer beware, from a software sales and share purchase point of view.

[Ggcc]

You are correct with the trend is your friend. From experience though the most vocal people about their negative employers are the worst employees. I am not saying these employees are bad, but it is something to consider from an employers perspective.
Also I had a conversation with a gentleman working for Dell as a software developer on a trip to Bali in 2015. He mentioned that kiwi's level of self worth was far too high for their level of experience and that most would not survive in the states as developers. He believed they also lacked work ethics. He went for a holiday, but he continued working while on holiday.

Just something to consider from the other side of the fence.

[winner69]

Hings looking pretty positive

The big win to come not included in guidance but still going to be cash positive soon
https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/242059.pdf

Share price back to $1 soon?

[BlackPeter]

Hings looking pretty positive

The big win to come not included in guidance but still going to be cash positive soon
https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/242059.pdf

Share price back to $1 soon?

True British sense of humour - love it!

So lets see: $12.9m revenue (1stHY) , $37.5m loss (1stHY) and full year revenues downgraded to $27m to $30m (down from roughly twice this number).

Zero Growth company with exorbitant annual losses; They didn't announce the date for the next cap rising ...

High risk business with lots of larger companies competing;

Unhappy (and reduced) R&D staff (ref to the Glassdoor discussion some pages back);

They changed to open source SW platform to save money (looks risky to me for security software - and did they really investigate all IP implications for using open source?)

On the other hand - this is clearly the stuff for gamblers and speculators. Who knows, maybe the SP is running for another peak?

Discl: 2 hot 4 me;

[Santiago]

agree- just skimmed it but it looks like a terrible report to me with some sugar coating which is the commentary from management (which means nothing as these guys have proven themselves to be full of rubbish before). Filter their aspirational statements out, focus solely on the numbers... ugly

[lastmoa]

Hings looking pretty positive

The big win to come not included in guidance but still going to be cash positive soon
https://www.nzx.com/files/attachments/242059.pdf

Share price back to $1 soon?

Yes, reads fine.
If (and acknowledge its an IF) they can achieve cash positive by eoy, then they won't need to touch the cr facility or cash raise.
At these prices the sell down seems overdone.
I predict there are still some nervous sellers needed flushing out then a steady trend up, especially if a few wins along the way.
I still hold hopes and the calibre of some of their clients (that have done stringent independent reviews) reinforces that for me ... not some Glassdoor forum.

[blobbles]

IMO anyone that sees that report and thinks "pretty positive" either needs their head read, their rose coloured lenses cleaned or is being deeply sarcastic!

For a growth company, shrinking is not a good look.

Cannot see how people would keep their money in this one, cut your losses. There are plenty of companies experiencing share price inflation if you are after capital gain (HBL/TIL/ATM).

[trackers]

Previous guidance of $54-$65m is now revised to $27-$30m.

... lol ...

[mikeybycrikey]

Wow. This is a mess. Just reading through the report now. Thought it was a typo when they talked about being "cash positive", rather than "cash-flow positive". It's not.

They have $14.7 million of cash in the bank and were burning through it at $4.8 million per month last HY. They are claiming that will reduce to $2.4 million per month. Seems like a lot of cost saving and revenue increase to be banking on.

And what happens in 6 months and 4 days when all the cash runs out?

Thought it might be worth it as a risky gamble but the more I read, the less I'm interested.

[moimoi]

How is it possible to claim your in compliance with continuous disclosure requirements and then 14 days later release a halving of revenue forecast. (and a variety of other negative disclosures)

It beggars belief that this is considered acceptable.!!!

$14.7 million of cash in the bank AS AT THE END OF JUNE...Given they are melting $4.8M a month a strong chance cash now around $5m by end of this month.

That its holding in the 30's is a surprise.

[blackcap]

How is it possible to claim your in compliance with continuous disclosure requirements and then 14 days later release a halving of revenue forecast. (and a variety of other negative disclosures)

It beggars belief that this is considered acceptable.!!!


That was my initial thought too moimoi. Surely the market needs more informed guidance if and when the parameters change if they are material. Now what has been announced today surely is material.
Mickeybycrickey, you are spot on. When I read cash positive, I naturally assumed... "cash flow positive" but if that is not the case.... what a huge balls up and is that an attempt by WYN to obfuscate? I mean what does "cash positive" even mean? Does that mean they are not in overdraft?

[winner69]

Thought it might be worth it as a risky gamble but the more I read, the less I'm interested.

Fooled me on first read through - esp that cash positive bit

Is that big contract now not included in guidance something 'real' or just a dream?

[warthog]

The hog doesn't do schadenfreude, but thinks karma is interesting…

[IAK]

Article from the NBR.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/wynyard-announces-huge-loss-still-going-concern-say-directors-th-p-193338

Discl. Not holding.

[trackers]

Wow. This is a mess. Just reading through the report now. Thought it was a typo when they talked about being "cash positive", rather than "cash-flow positive". It's not.

They have $14.7 million of cash in the bank and were burning through it at $4.8 million per month last HY. They are claiming that will reduce to $2.4 million per month. Seems like a lot of cost saving and revenue increase to be banking on.

And what happens in 6 months and 4 days when all the cash runs out?

Thought it might be worth it as a risky gamble but the more I read, the less I'm interested.

Wynyard is a special case you see.. For most companies when you are a loss maker making $60mil revenue and suddenly you're making $30mil revenue, you lose more money , but WYN of course will lose less money - their accountant needs a raise

[winner69]

Article from the NBR.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/wynyard-announces-huge-loss-still-going-concern-say-directors-th-p-193338

Discl. Not holding.

This comment after the article is good. Aaron been around the tech scene for a while

#3 by Aaron Bhatnagar - Alliance Equities 3 hours ago
I had a scan through the documents given to the market but I couldn't find anything relating to revenue/client retention, nor any assumptions about their lifetime value of a customer or client acquisition costs. Wynyard have made it very hard to assess their company by the most popular metrics used for software businesses.

Given their revised anemic forecasts of only 21% revenue growth, I'd struggle to value this company at more than 1.5x revenue. Given revenue is forecast for FY16 at $27-$30m excluding big deals which might never eventuate, a midpoint of $28.5m is a fair figure.

$28.5m x 1.5 = $42.75m. Current market cap is $66m, so in my view the share price is due to correct significantly further - from 37c to circa 25c.

I'm not liking this story at all.

[Harvey Specter]

$28.5m x 1.5 = $42.75m. Current market cap is $66m, so in my view the share price is due to correct significantly further - from 37c to circa 25c.But then if the big contract does come off, then Revenue is a lot higher, and growth is higher so justifies a higher multiple, which could result in his valuation doubling overnight based on a positive (if you believe) press release.

I'm not saying buy - I got out recently at a big loss. Even if they do get this sale across the line, the big issue is how long it took and therefore how long will any future big sales take and how does this impact the predictability of their growth rate.

Since they are only cash positive, not cashflow positive, another capital raise has to be on the horizon and one has to expect that would need to be at a big discount to get it over the line.

[winner69]

Brian Gaynor still hopeful - last couple paragrahs

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11700010

[Baa_Baa]

Brian Gaynor still hopeful - last couple paragrahs

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11700010

Wishful thinking, though hopefully not. With 7.5% holding and massively underwater, it's understandable to have some skerrick of hope. Clearly they're not cutting losses (caught holding) and are prepared to go to zero or wait for a recovery, either way. Dreadful situation really.

[blobbles]

Into the 20s,I am picking fair value in the 20-25c range now. Too much uncertainty and not enough growth to provide the market with any confidence.

[Schrodinger]

Looks like another Rakon. Think this might hit 20c looking at the depth charts... Amazing what poor governance and a lack of sales will do.

[blobbles]

Not quite another Rakon in my books, at least the management of this company can be flushed out. I think the CEO (ridiculous attitude/ego, inept performance, terrible decision making over the past year), CFO (for thinking they should record revenue from contracts before they are signed, shocking cost control, plus the attempt to dupe shareholders with the "cash positive" statement yesterday) and half the board need to go. A LOT to answer for an no answers forthcoming.

I know what I would be asking for if I was a major shareholder... management shakeup needed. The people needed to right the ship certainly aren't the ones that torpedoed it.

[morphs]

This stock has taught me a lesson. I purchased in the IPO and added to the position at $1.30 and $1.60 on the way up. Held on through the downturn from 3.30 and was hopeful when the cap raise plan at 2.00 idea was floated. Watched in horror at the botched rights issue and exited right afterwards for a significant loss at 0.95. I did not feel I could trust anything that management said after that. At the time it was hard to take that loss but very glad I followed my gut seeing what has happened since.

[Baa_Baa]

Wynyard class action gains ground www.nbr.co.nz (behind paywall)
"More than 10% of share register said to be interested in legal claim."

What's the point, company is screwed enough without gutting it with a class action suit. It's all very well to be an angry shareholder having suffered a huge loss, but risking killing off the company completely is biting ones nose off to spite ones face.

[blackcap]

Wynyard class action gains ground www.nbr.co.nz (behind paywall)
"More than 10% of share register said to be interested in legal claim."

What's the point, company is screwed enough without gutting it with a class action suit. It's all very well to be an angry shareholder having suffered a huge loss, but risking killing off the company completely is biting ones nose off to spite ones face.

Would the action be against the company or the directors though? Or can it only be against the company? I am no legal expert but do the directors not have obligations under the Coy Act and also under NZX continuous disclosure rules?

[Hectorplains]

Wynyard class action gains ground www.nbr.co.nz (http://www.nbr.co.nz) (behind paywall)
"More than 10% of share register said to be interested in legal claim."

What's the point, company is screwed enough without gutting it with a class action suit. It's all very well to be an angry shareholder having suffered a huge loss, but risking killing off the company completely is biting ones nose off to spite ones face.

Nope, the legal action would target Wynyard directors and their insurance cover.

[Harvey Specter]

Can ex shareholders join. What's the relevant point in time?

[RupertBear]

Can ex shareholders join. What's the relevant point in time?

http://www.wynyardclassaction.co.nz/?gclid=Cj0KEQjw0f-9BRCF9-D60_n4rKcBEiQAnXW4-478eDvQwGFlIHCSX5eEOHEEkCAf4At0XaUbN8KRbhYaAkY38P8 HAQ

[Hectorplains]

Can ex shareholders join. What's the relevant point in time?

Yes, they can. It covers the entire period from IPO to present.

[Longhaul]

Just in for anyone interested

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160830005842/en/Ventura-County-CA-Sheriff%E2%80%99s-Office-Implements-Wynyard

[brend]

Yes, they can. It covers the entire period from IPO to present.

Wouldn't make sense for someone to sign the class action if they sold their shares at a profit?

[RupertBear]

Just in for anyone interested

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160830005842/en/Ventura-County-CA-Sheriff%E2%80%99s-Office-Implements-Wynyard

And the sp goes down even further :confused:

[RupertBear]

Just in for anyone interested

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160830005842/en/Ventura-County-CA-Sheriff%E2%80%99s-Office-Implements-Wynyard


This is good news right? I was almost excited by it and thought the sp might rise but it went down! Am I missing something?

Thanks for posting this by the way

[blobbles]

This is good news right? I was almost excited by it and thought the sp might rise but it went down! Am I missing something?

Thanks for posting this by the way

Wasn't this already in the pipeline? I thought they had won this a while ago... otherwise we would have seen a company announcement I think. They certainly need one (or eight).

[moimoi]

The deal size is possibly tiny..Its one of 58 Counties in California. A long way to go to get widespread uptake from the County Sheriff Departments in California alone it would seem.

Interestingly, despite the companies market value being crushed down to $45M ($35M ex cash) not a single Director, past or present, has stepped up to the plate with on-market purchases of shares.

[blobbles]

The deal size is possibly tiny..Its one of 58 Counties in California. A long way to go to get widespread uptake from the County Sheriff Departments in California alone it would seem.

Interestingly, despite the companies market value being crushed down to $45M ($35M ex cash) not a single Director, past or present, has stepped up to the plate with on-market purchases of shares.

Great point moimoi. Very indicative of their inside knowledge... senior managers have also not bought shares...

[Harvey Specter]

Great point moimoi. Very indicative of their inside knowledge... senior managers have also not bought shares...And Sam Morgan has not come out of Twitter retirement.

[winner69]

At least it closed up from its lows of the day

But 24 is the lowest close ever

[moimoi]

A manufactured close @ the mid way point of the days high and low. The last trade being $2,232.

Trend continues to be down on above average daily volume.

Expecting a SSH notice before long.

[Baa_Baa]

A manufactured close @ the mid way point of the days high and low. The last trade being $2,232.

Trend continues to be down on above average daily volume.

Expecting a SSH notice before long.

Yes, an SSH soon seems likely, who do you reckon is feeding the bid? Anyone monitoring the T20 could answer that. Sad really, if a large holder(s) have lost confidence completely and selling out (presumably at a large loss), that could drop the SP even further.

[lastmoa]

https://www.wynyardgroup.com/en/news-events-blog/wynyard-group-technology-selected-by-us-department-of-the-interior’s-bureau-of-safety-and-environmental-enforcement/

[trackers]

https://www.wynyardgroup.com/en/news-events-blog/wynyard-group-technology-selected-by-us-department-of-the-interior’s-bureau-of-safety-and-environmental-enforcement/


How is this news?

"Wynyard Risk Management software was selected by BSEE earlier this year"

[jonu]

Thinking maybe low tide has passed. Dipped my toe in at 22 this morning. Very few on offer below 30.

[BlackPeter]

Do you see any fundamental reason to buy them - or is this just hope that the next announcement might be a good one?

[jonu]

Do you see any fundamental reason to buy them - or is this just hope that the next announcement might be a good one?

I still think the underlying potential is good for them, they just haven't delivered on obtaining enough large scale contracts and have had horrendous cash burn. The same was true when they were priced at $2. The latest drop has been on quite light volume and an overall market dip. They have taken steps to rein in the cash burn. Call it seat of the pants analysis if you like, I just feel they have been oversold

[BlackPeter]

I still think the underlying potential is good for them, they just haven't delivered on obtaining enough large scale contracts and have had horrendous cash burn. The same was true when they were priced at $2. The latest drop has been on quite light volume and an overall market dip. They have taken steps to rein in the cash burn. Call it seat of the pants analysis if you like, I just feel they have been oversold

... and for a time you well might be right - hard to predict the ripples of the market. I am more concerned about all the red flags staff and board are sending now for months ... and the lack of material sales success, which might just reinforce a death spiral (it is really hard to sell software requiring huge investment in training and maintenance if customers are not sure how long the producer is still around ...).

I think the best thing which could happen to them is being taken over by somebody with critical mass (assuming their software is good enough, which I don't know).

Anyway - I do wish them best of luck .. and I think they will need it.

[whatsup]

sub .20 now & I thought of buying all the way down from .25 glad I didn't now, where IS the bottom ( if there is one ? )

[levin123]

sub .20 now & I thought of buying all the way down from .25 glad I didn't now, where IS the bottom ( if there is one ? )

To me, the bottom is irrelevant. If you buy a distressed asset because you think they've bottomed out, odds are you're going to have a bad time.

If you believe that the Company is reasonably fundamentally stable and will recover, then buy and back yourself to be right (probably have a stoploss in place).

Nothing from WYN management has given me any confidence at all in the fundamental state of the business. Staff leaving in droves, terrible market guidance, and poor and confusing contract disclosure makes this an equity I wouldn't touch.

This could be a turnaround story or the bottom could be 0 ala Dick Smith. Who knows, but not for me.

[Under Surveillance]

With the share price below RAK's, and falling inexorably towards PPL's, "the market" has completely lost confidence in WYN. That's not to deny that there is still some chance it will survive.

[BlackPeter]

sub .20 now & I thought of buying all the way down from .25 glad I didn't now, where IS the bottom ( if there is one ? )

Agree with Levin. Buying in a downtrend is never a good idea ... much safer to wait for the good news (if it ever comes) and buy in afterwards. Sure - you won't pick the bottom, but you will at least know what you buy and whether the price is fair.

Yes - this share might go up if they manage to secure (enough) business, but it might as well go down to zero and WYN roll up their toenails. In the second case it doesn't matter how cheap you bought the share - the pain of total capital loss is the same no matter what purchase price you paid.

[Baa_Baa]

That's insightful, nicely put. WYN could do very well some day but they could also destroy an entry investment and have already destroyed many prior investments. I hope they turn this around though it will require solid new customers and a clear move to sustainable revenue and profit. Looks at the DIL chart for inspiration, it went to hell and back, lost fortunes for many and made fortunes for some. Patience.

[carrom74]

Solid volumes today. One single transaction of a million shares. Almost hitting 2 mil.Is salt asset management is on a bargain hunting prowl similar to Veritas??

[golden city]

Volume so good. Looks bargain hunter finally doing the move.

[golden city]

Can't resist. I got in too

[macduffy]

So who's selling these big parcels - and why?

[winner69]

Director Fiona has disclosed her 6729 shares

Good sign

[golden city]

Looking at the buying side. Good support

[Hectorplains]

Director Fiona has disclosed her 6729 shares

Good sign

$1500 worth...

[golden city]

It is not about the money. It is all about vote of confidence about the company. At least not dead yet

[Yoda]

Director Fiona has disclosed her 6729 shares

Good sign
haha.... can i seeyour tongue in your cheek?
Mmmmm. $1350. Sounds strange on her wages . Not much confidence or conviction there. Publicity stunt? I wound be happier if a director bought $50,000
i couldn't resist , and bought some to, but fully aware i could loose the lot so $5 k my limit.
at $0.20 thats a 10 bagger if goes back to $2 ( cant see that happening though, at least not any time soon after the loss of confidence the market is showing .
once bitten twice shy.......

[golden city]

you never know.., DIL happened before drop even lower to 10c.., anything can happen...,

[golden city]

the industry is on demand.., just the management need to kick them selves

[shonen knife]

Does anyone know what the deal with Cognevo is?

The Wynyard site states that one of their products has been re-branded as Cognevo https://www.wynyardgroup.com/en/news-events-blog/acta-rebranded-to-cognevo/

But the Cognevo site doesn't seem to mention Wynyard apart from saying that's where a lot of their staff joined from https://www.cognevo.com/about-us/


Paul Stokes CEO

Paul is CEO of Cognevo, and brings over 15 years of executive management and entrepreneurial experience in risk and security technologies. Paul is a founder of Cognevo and previously served as COO at Wynyard Group, responsible for business development, sales, services and support.




Reading the above it seems like it is distancing itself from Wynyard...

[Leftfield]

haha....
i couldn't resist , and bought some to, but fully aware i could loose the lot so $5 k my limit.
at $0.20 thats a 10 bagger if goes back to $2 ( cant see that happening though, at least not any time soon after the loss of confidence the market is showing .
once bitten twice shy.......

Good luck Yoda (and others like GC) buying in at what you perceive is a low entry point. I hope the SP rises to your expectations.

I'm interested in what would you do if there is a capital raising and a prospect of further dilution?

[mikeybycrikey]

Good luck Yoda (and others like GC) buying in at what you perceive is a low entry point. I hope the SP rises to your expectations.

I'm interested in what would you do if there is a capital raising and a prospect of further dilution?

Good point. Considering that WYN is likely to run out of money by the end of the year unless a major new source of funds is found, it's worth keeping that right at the front of your mind.

Or are they maybe going to have to use the expensive overdraft facility set up by one of their investors?

Really interesting times. Have been thinking about jumping in but still a little too risky for me right now. High risk, but might lead to high return (or complete wipeout).

[whatsup]

Looks like WYN is off its lows (at last )

[BlackPeter]

Looks like WYN is off its lows (at last )

You think so? Admittedly - every trend has a bend in the end ... however - so far it looks like an unbroken downtrend to me.

What do you think distinguishes the current ripple from the various downtrend ripples before?

Sure - yesterday there was quite a significant volume going through - i.e. somebody sold lots (and presumably thought that this is a great idea to conserve capital) and somebody else bought lots (presumably thinking that they got the shares for cheap). Who knows who of the two (groups?) was correct ... and today's volume seems to be back to normal ... no news at the horizon ...

[golden city]

Depth looks out of lows

[Yoda]

Good luck Yoda (and others like GC) buying in at what you perceive is a low entry point. I hope the SP rises to your expectations.

I'm interested in what would you do if there is a capital raising and a prospect of further dilution?

Ive gained 5% in my total portfolio from WYN so If I loose <2% its not toooo bad, but will sell if it goes to .19 . I think for this, putting money into capital raising will tie up funds don't have, and would want to exit quickly if it goes to custard.

[whatsup]

Milford adjusts and reduces holding =s price weakness, hmmmm !

[sb9]

Hmmm...another day and back to reality check I suppose...

[golden city]

****. Got suck in

[golden city]

But by looking at it. The price must be cheaper than iqe.

[RupertBear]

****. Got suck in

Me too :(

Have averaged down to $0.90 now but have probably just thrown away more good money ... uggh

[sb9]

But by looking at it. The price must be cheaper than iqe.

Well its relative, isn't it gc. Hard to make rational assessment in absence of any information from company.

[golden city]

Yes. This year getting harder to predict stocks. I like wyn Because the industry is good. Just management need to keep it up

[golden city]

Looks so cheap. So bought little bit to try

[moimoi]

One of the many troubling aspects of the Milford selldown is the gap in sellls between April and now. What is it that has made them decide to throw in the towel now.?

Another big trade has just gone thru so maybe they've chucked in the kitchen sink too..... ;-)

[whatsup]

One of the many troubling aspects of the Milford selldown is the gap in sellls between April and now. What is it that has made them decide to throw in the towel now.?

Another big trade has just gone thru so maybe they've chucked in the kitchen sink too..... ;-)

HOPE its not Milford!

[golden city]

Very hard to predict. Milford didn't get it right first time. So this time. Might not be right selling too

[RupertBear]

One of the many troubling aspects of the Milford selldown is the gap in sellls between April and now. What is it that has made them decide to throw in the towel now.?

Another big trade has just gone thru so maybe they've chucked in the kitchen sink too..... ;-)

Perhaps they are just 'rebalancing' their portfolios :confused:

[Ggcc]

Just wait till we get some news. No point throwing good money after bad money. I still have shares in this company, but will not buy anymore until I get better news like break even and a future with profit...

[golden city]

hopefully they hit some big contracts soon.., oct nov normally thye announce their contracts

[blackcap]

Ive gained 5% in my total portfolio from WYN so If I loose <2% its not toooo bad, but will sell if it goes to .19 . I think for this, putting money into capital raising will tie up funds don't have, and would want to exit quickly if it goes to custard.

Did you manage to get out at 19?

[warthog]

The hog is really, really sad to see that WYN has lost approx. 94% of its peak market cap.

[Yoda]

Did you manage to get out at 19?
18
lesson learnt

Is there good news......... No
is there an up trend.......no
was i being greedy.........yes
trying too hard........yes
think i knew better than others...... Yes very silly
in the SP over the 50 MA and is the 50 over the 100 MA .........no
Am i gambling or investing / trading ..........

it is interesting that there were so many buyers on wednesday, almost as if the seller was pumping the price, to boost sales, but I'm just making lame excuses for my lack of sound judgment .

Others will see it differently if they just bought and i hope they prove me wrong , and these are personal rants .

[golden city]

all the confidence are gone for wyn.., so if any one good news coming.., share price will certainly fly up.., but who knows .., might never come.., this is part of the game., some win some lose.., only those afford to lose., always win..

[lche059]

i'm shocked the CEO still has the job. i know the board says he's still the best salesman. that might be the reason for the board to not fire him. that's not the reason for him to not resign. if he doesn't believe he can turn this around, which i don't think he does, the only reason for him to stay is to keep getting paid with shareholder money. really sad.

[warthog]

i'm shocked the CEO still has the job. i know the board says he's still the best salesman. that might be the reason for the board to not fire him. that's not the reason for him to not resign. if he doesn't believe he can turn this around, which i don't think he does, the only reason for him to stay is to keep getting paid with shareholder money. really sad.

Suspect that it isn't just him who is responsible for the current situation WYN finds itself in.

Why don't they all take a $0 salary until WYN is profitable? No? Well, that would tell you everything you need to know.

[moimoi]

i'm shocked the CEO still has the job. i know the board says he's still the best salesman. that might be the reason for the board to not fire him. that's not the reason for him to not resign. if he doesn't believe he can turn this around, which i don't think he does, the only reason for him to stay is to keep getting paid with shareholder money. really sad.

There's probably very good odds that in the entire history of the NZX no CEO has EVER resigned on account of their own non performance.

0.175 on the offer now. Still no floor.

[Baa_Baa]

... if he doesn't believe he can turn this around, which i don't think he does ...

Can you expand on why you "don't think he does"? TIA

[lche059]

Can you expand on why you "don't think he does"? TIA

You know where his money is now if he believes

[whatsup]

Movement at the station , back to .20 whatsup ?

[moimoi]

Movement at the station , back to .20 whatsup ?

On $15k of volume...did you buy a few whatsup....? ;-)

[blackcap]

Interim CFO is leaving.... or was he going to leave anyway?

[golden city]

Looks positive

[carrom74]

I can see consistent demand at the moment.Not sure why as there is no news...It came from 22.5 to 17.5 due to Milford selling its stake but slowly creeping back up.

[golden city]

maybe new contracts comming

[whatsup]

maybe new contracts comming

We hope so but small volume does not signal that !

[golden city]

Backing looks strong

[whatsup]

WYN placed in a T H , very unusal for a NZX share , whatsup ? !!

[Ggcc]

They hired a couple of new people recently, but I get a bad feeling about this. But too late to worry now

[whatsup]

WYN placed in a T H , very unusal for a NZX share , whatsup ? !!

A T H on the NZX is very unusal, why and what is this about,

1/ Cap raising,
2/ Major order ann.
3/ Take over.
4/ Corner shareholder ann.
5/ Death of the company.
6/ Staff reshuffle .
7/ Signifiant co ann,

WHATSUP ?

[golden city]

I think they might found a new investor

[golden city]

Or even takeover

[whatsup]

WYN placed in a T H , very unusal for a NZX share , whatsup ? !!
Todays volume has been reasonable 400K with steady buying but Ive had the feeling that the S P has been managed Fri and again today, so it could be something to do with this , hmmmm !

[golden city]

Yes normally if it is bad news. Sp going down rather than up

[golden city]

So might be something good comming

[blobbles]

Could be bad, could be good. Confirmation of their 27m project would be huge and put a rocket under the SP. Confirmation that they are drawing down their ugly loan facility would possibly see the SP halve given current risks...

Then again, if news is leaking, recent price action would indicate there is good news coming.

[whatsup]

A T H on the NZX is very unusal, why and what is this about,

1/ Cap raising,
2/ Major order ann.
3/ Take over.
4/ Corner shareholder ann.
5/ Death of the company.
6/ Staff reshuffle .
7/ Signifiant co ann,

WHATSUP ?

8/ Additional funding lines ( required ! )

[bonne vie]

Failed 30 September banking covenants. That would be ugly. I am erring average to good news - takeover but not at the price we shareholders would like.

[warthog]

Let's be clear:

Wynyard sell software to governments, army, police or whoever is wasting public money making a career out of spying on their respective populations while at the same time pretending to be protecting law, order and the "national interest" of whichever country they are in.

Everybody who knows something tangible about how governments, police and such organisations work know that first mission is to protect their revenue streams while keeping up the PR spin about how good they are doing, and Wynyard are putting up their hand saying they would like to be a partner in that squandering of public funds and consequent erosion of rights, privacy and civil liberties.

Second mission is to buy as much product and services to demonstrate to immediate superiors that they are not clueless. However, to manage this they need only need to make things one step more complicated than their superiors are capable of understanding, and so it goes on up the ladder, until you get to the top clueless person.

Disc.: no WYN. Morally corrupt business in the Hog's view (like Sky City, Philip Morris, etc.).

[golden city]

Very hard one to guess. Jade take the company back maybe at very cheap price like 30c

[lastmoa]

Very hard one to guess. Jade take the company back maybe at very cheap price like 30c

Agree, hard to pick but I look at it positive no matter what. If its negative its positive as it puts a finality to the downtrend of sp and news and I can nail my 'certs in sockdraw' shut.
They are exhibiting in San Diego right now so can't see a fold really. I do suspect they have been making quiet progress in USA and add that to renewed buyer interest I err on the positive.
Whatever we as holders are locked in for what eventuates. Good luck all ... we're overdue some of that here.

[Crisis]

Yes indeed if it's good news someone leaked Nzx where are you? https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/wynyard-shares-trading-halt-ahead-announcement-b-195554#comments
https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/wynyard-shares-trading-halt-ahead-announcement-b-195554#comments

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Read more:https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/wynyard-shares-trading-halt-ahead-announcement-b-195554
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[Bilbo]

Comment #2 on NBR article is "CEO has deleted his tweets? #speculate"

Richardson's twitter account was https://twitter.com/richardsoncp but it appears to have been taken down.

What does this mean?

[sb9]

My pick is that the news is around "Funding" be it positive or negative. Sure they're in discussions about all details behind closed doors...

[janner]

Comment #2 on NBR article is "CEO has deleted his tweets? #speculate"

Richardson's twitter account was https://twitter.com/richardsoncp but it appears to have been taken down.

What does this mean?

Not willing to front up...

Bad. Bad news.

Disc. Not a holder.

[whatsup]

Should be some sort of Ann before opening tomorrow 10.00am, cheers.

[Baa_Baa]

Comment #2 on NBR article is "CEO has deleted his tweets? #speculate"

Richardson's twitter account was https://twitter.com/richardsoncp but it appears to have been taken down.

What does this mean?

Seems too much of a coincidence, the CEO goes offline, and a trading halt. But the company doesn't need a TH to announce a CEO event, so he might be collateral damage to whatever the actual announce will be, which points to something untoward. Either way it's not looking like a new customer (no TH needed), or an outstanding contract payment (no TH needed), perhaps more likely -unfortunately- another mismanaged financial debacle and high level scalp to appease the beleaguered shareholders? I hope not, but have a bad feeling about this.

[trader_jackson]

They have used up all their high interest credit line and can't secure anymore funding and doing a "great capital raising" rights issue 1 new share for 2 held "to propel them to the next level of growth"?

This is probably worst case scenario (apart from doing a dick smith of course...)... such a far cry from the $1 mark when I 'encouraged' holders to sell (bit like the warning I fired around a month before dick smith collasped...)

Let's all hope this time I am very wrong (wouldn't be the first time!;)) and WYN rebounds tremendously :t_up:

Best of luck to all remaining holders.

[Stranger_Danger]

I'd say it is bad news. Remember early on with Xero, when Drury talked about the importance of a listing when it came to credibility in the market place?

They played that like a fiddle. Competing against much larger incumbents, a few years later they were writing blogs and doing promotions (credibly) showing how they were the safer bet, due to the scrutiny of public listing, the cash in the bank etc etc. And remember, the credibility and trust they were hoping to get was aimed at getting, say, a $50 a month commitment.

Now visualise the *exact opposite* of that.

Wynyard need their customer to believe that the place isn't a mess, isn't a risk, and yes, give Wynyard a crucial, mission critical part of your business, and they'll definitely be around forever to honour that trust. And they're wanting to get a lot more than $50 a month.

Now imagine you're that customer, surveying the landscape today.

What are you thinking?

[mikeybycrikey]

Well, it looks like the CEOs Twitter account is back online. Looks like he's only got one follower so, down from about 2,000 a week ago.

Definitely something going on here. I'm guessing it's more likely bad than good.

[Baa_Baa]

Not to be too pessimistic, another NZ tech company that looked like it 'lost it all' turned into a darling, even despite severe ructions when things were on the up and up, finally being sold for a small(?) fortune return to it's stoic shareholders.

DIL listed in Dec 2007 at $1.00, history would show that was an unfortunate time for a new listing, let alone a tech company in the backwaters of the Antipodes. Four months later it had plunged to $0.05! Then it lumbered along for a couple of years, clawing back to $0.50 then back past IPO at $1.00 in Apr 2011 with a high $1.10. Four years of despair and hope.

Those depressing days though, were when fortunes were cast, even at the IPO price it was above break-even, for those that held. Those that bought the story down into $0.05 made massive coin, truely massive. But it got better, way better!

From there the SP appreciated in 2-3 years to $8.20 in May 2013. Work out the ROI on that one. Porsches were driving around with DIL numberplates. Then they stumbled again, some poor accounting practices plumbed the SP back to $2.76 in Dec 2013 (doh). But still a massive ROI on the IPO and super-massive on the 2007 lows.

After that DIL got its accounting sorted and appreciated to a respectable $7.00 at which time the directors quit the company in a buyout.

Do the maths on all that and you can see DIL looked like a Lotto ticket, quite a few times. But it made a poultice for the believers and incomprehensible gains for those who believed, held and especially for those who bought into the troubled times.

Sadly I haven't been that brave and have saved myself massive losses getting out some time ago, but I still like the story and I hope WYN can turn this around, whatever ails them, or whatever transpires that might be a turn around to the good times.

I'll buy a WYN Lotto ticket if it remains a going concern after the TH, but that still depends on where the SP bottoms out. It might be like DIL March 2008 all over again.

I could be driving Porsche one day with a WYN numberplate.

:)

[golden city]

more likely corner shareholder coming

[blobbles]

Utter speculation: I reckon the CEO has been ousted. And in a hissy fit he decided to delete his twitter account before being told off that it would give too much away and would violate disclosure by proxy.

[levin123]

Wouldn't put it past the inept toad

[bmrm]

Recent employee reviews certainly don't support any change in fortune: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Wynyard-Group-RVW12192817.htm

[bull....]

Well, it looks like the CEOs Twitter account is back online. Looks like he's only got one follower so, down from about 2,000 a week ago.

Definitely something going on here. I'm guessing it's more likely bad than good.

is that follower the IRD?

[trader_jackson]

Utter speculation: I reckon the CEO has been ousted. And in a hissy fit he decided to delete his twitter account before being told off that it would give too much away and would violate disclosure by proxy.

I would have thought I'd see an annoucement before 9 this morning, worst case before market open.. surely they know what they are going to announce? Could be possible blobbles... maybe, if this is the case, the CEO turned up at a leisurely 9:30 this morning to negotiated his severance Package? (would explain the delayed announcement ;))

[whatsup]

Should be some sort of Ann before opening tomorrow 10.00am, cheers.

WRONG and in my view it doesn't look good now, Im picking that they are in talk with their financers and the result doesn't happen in a hurry especially if the underlying issue is not that rosie!

[trackers]

happy to be proven wrong, but this is a no brainer for me - anyone that's taken even a cursory look at their books and extrapolated down the track even a little bit will know they have no money

[blackcap]

happy to be proven wrong, but this is a no brainer for me - anyone that's taken even a cursory look at their books and extrapolated down the track even a little bit will know they have no money

What about that facility at 23% that they could tap into? Or was that only about a few months worth?

[warthog]

Recent employee reviews certainly don't support any change in fortune: https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Wynyard-Group-RVW12192817.htm

Good catch bmrm.

Doesn't look good for WYN, or maybe somebody's out to undermine them.

Interesting comment on GlassDoor: "Does not know limitations of their products - which they got plenty.…Not ethical."

Consistent with the hog's general evaluation.

[trader_jackson]

What about that facility at 23% that they could tap into? Or was that only about a few months worth?

If they are having to tap into this... that would be enough to alarm me! I thought it was a 'worst case' that they would have to go into this...
... we await what is most likely going to be a 'company changing' announcement

[trackers]

What about that facility at 23% that they could tap into? Or was that only about a few months worth?

Its a good point, were they able to meet the conditions for the facility then they wouldn't be tapped out yet

[warthog]

If they are having to tap into this... that would be enough to alarm me! I thought it was a 'worst case' that they would have to go into this...
... we await what is most likely going to be a 'company changing' announcement

Maybe they could apply for a loan at Harmoney?

Disc.: no HBL but maybe should consider :t_up:

[trader_jackson]

Maybe they could apply for a loan at Harmoney?

Disc.: no HBL but maybe should consider :t_up:

They probably wouldn't qualify for a loan ;);)

Disclosure: of course I'm holding HBL!

[Baa_Baa]

A reminder from 11 August, about the $17m cash on hand at the time and the $10m 'standby' facility, at 8% fee and 15% pa interest, expected to cover 12 months "if required" and Director satisfied that "conditions" can be met.

https://www.nzx.com/companies/WYN/announcements/287079

It would be a hell of shock if the TH has anything to do with working capital!!

[warthog]

A reminder from 11 August, about the $17m cash on hand at the time and the $10m 'standby' facility, at 8% fee and 15% pa interest, expected to cover 12 months "if required" and Director satisfied that "conditions" can be met.

https://www.nzx.com/companies/WYN/announcements/287079

It would be a hell of shock if the TH has anything to do with working capital!!

Banks are getting a bit jittery these days (general comment).

[warthog]

They probably wouldn't qualify for a loan ;);)

Disclosure: of course I'm holding HBL!

They probably would, but the rate would be north of 30%.

"Thank you for the opportunity to apply for this loan. This will allow me to consolidate debt and keep my business going."

[Harvey Specter]

The delay obviously means they are still working out a deal, but were concerned about leaks/insider trading. That suggests this is wider than just a head office deal and there are people doing more detailed DD where the info couldn't be contained with a tight circle of senior people.

[winner69]

How much of the company are you guys going to be owning after this announcement

[mikeybycrikey]

The delay obviously means they are still working out a deal, but were concerned about leaks/insider trading. That suggests this is wider than just a head office deal and there are people doing more detailed DD where the info couldn't be contained with a tight circle of senior people.

I would say given the bump up in the SP late last week that news was already starting to leak out and they had to keep a lid on it.

Still not optimistic about this but we just need to keep waiting.

[trackers]

A reminder from 11 August, about the $17m cash on hand at the time and the $10m 'standby' facility, at 8% fee and 15% pa interest, expected to cover 12 months "if required" and Director satisfied that "conditions" can be met.

https://www.nzx.com/companies/WYN/announcements/287079

It would be a hell of shock if the TH has anything to do with working capital!!

That announcement does not say they had $17mil cash...

at end of June they had $23,760,000 less tax owing of $12,587,000 = $11,173,000

Their cash burn rate at the time was $4,800,000 per month.

In late August they released announcements advising their cash burn rate was expected to fall from $4.8mil a month to $2.4mil a month (due to expectations of cost savings and revenue increases).

The question for me is, did this expectation of a reduction in cash burn come to fruition and if so, when? At the end of June or sometime after the end of August? Because if the announcement was in the present tense as I would assume, they lost another $4.8mil in July, another $4.8mil in August, and who knows what from there, but unless it was all of a sudden a profit......

[whatsup]

Nothing, Nada, doesn't look good imho.

[golden city]

Backing depth looks good news

[whatsup]

Backing depth looks good news

That will be cleared before trading resumes when ever that will be .

[sb9]

Backing depth looks good news

I don't think that's of any relevance now, it'll change pretty rapidly once the news is out be it positive or negative.

Longer the delay, one can only assume it isn't looking that flash. Doesn't take this long for good news to be out in my opinion.

[janner]

That " backing " depends on from whom..

We probably all started by backing a sure winner.. It has to go up because it is so low.. If you know what I mean :-))

Mine was Bounty Gold mines.. And Wellington Drive.. :-)))

Wish I had not sold my Wellington Drive at sixpence.. a hundred years ago.. :-))))

[Baa_Baa]

That announcement does not say they had $17mil cash...

at end of June they had $23,760,000 less tax owing of $12,587,000 = $11,173,000


Oops, yes, you're right my bad (post in haste, repent at leisure .. lol), the $17m referred to is "annualised cash savings of around $17 million through a combination of operating efficiencies and capital expenditure reductions"

Thanks for the analysis on working capital and burn rate. It does look like they could be close to dipping into the "standby facility". I wonder if the Directors have the revenue confidence to activate the draw down from the standby facility. Even if they do, by your calc's is only a few months lifeline, perhaps less than the 12 months they projected?

And no update on the trading halt today. :ohmy:

[warthog]

Oops, yes, you're right my bad (post in haste, repent at leisure .. lol), the $17m referred to is "annualised cash savings of around $17 million through a combination of operating efficiencies and capital expenditure reductions"

Thanks for the analysis on working capital and burn rate. It does look like they could be close to dipping into the "standby facility". I wonder if the Directors have the revenue confidence to activate the draw down from the standby facility. Even if they do, by your calc's is only a few months lifeline, perhaps less than the 12 months they projected?

And no update on the trading halt today. :ohmy:

Maybe the directors could be demonstrating their confidence in the company's fortunes by personally participating in the capital-raising?

[Baa_Baa]

That will be cleared before trading resumes when ever that will be .

That's worth repeating. The Bid/Ask queues are cleared out after the Trading Halt and prior to the resumption of trading, so what you see at the moment is wiped out and no indication of buy/sell pressure, it's a clean slate after the TH and the market decides afresh what the new WYN SP will be.

I agree with other comments here, it doesn't take this long to communicate good news.

[blobbles]

I disagree, a takeover offer would require due diligence and some time to sort out. News of the takeover offer being imminent though could easily leak a few days before. Can't see any reason the SP moving upwards the few days before the trading halt was put on. And I think the company realised it was leaking and asked for the TH to be put on to stop it. For me, indicates good news about to happen (well, if you bought in at <20c, not so good if you were in at >$1.50 methinks).

Cast your mind back to the start of the year when some overseas investors were interested in taking a stake in the company for ~$1.80. Well, they can probably now buy the whole company for less than they were going to pay for the stake!

[Stranger_Danger]

I disagree, a takeover offer would require due diligence and some time to sort out. News of the takeover offer being imminent though could easily leak a few days before. Can't see any reason the SP moving upwards the few days before the trading halt was put on. And I think the company realised it was leaking and asked for the TH to be put on to stop it. For me, indicates good news about to happen (well, if you bought in at <20c, not so good if you were in at >$1.50 methinks).

Cast your mind back to the start of the year when some overseas investors were interested in taking a stake in the company for ~$1.80. Well, they can probably now buy the whole company for less than they were going to pay for the stake!

Yeah and I can date all the 40 year old morbidly obese divorcees I wanted to date when they were 20 and hot. Whats your point?

My point is that the attractiveness of Wynyard to an acquirer could well have reduced by more than the price reduction.

[bmrm]

That's worth repeating. The Bid/Ask queues are cleared out after the Trading Halt and prior to the resumption of trading, so what you see at the moment is wiped out and no indication of buy/sell pressure, it's a clean slate after the TH and the market decides afresh what the new WYN SP will be.

I agree with other comments here, it doesn't take this long to communicate good news.

This isn't completely correct. Existing Bid/Asks don't get wiped after a halt, but traders have the opportunity to adjust or add and remove orders in the fifteen minutes post-announcement and pre resumption of trading. Halts come off in much the same way as the pre-open auction runs to reestablish a market price. So yes, current bids aren't particularly relevant for assessing the price, but no they aren't wiped prior to trading.

[Scrunch]

I agree with other comments here, it doesn't take this long to communicate good news.
My guess is that they have secured the $27M contract but it's conditional on some operational covenants that would only be met through raising additional capital.

[whatsup]

My guess is that they have secured the $27M contract but it's conditional on some operational covenants that would only be met through raising additional capital.

Scrunch, that would really be nice = insider info , hmmmm !

[RupertBear]

Few comments on NBR about possible scenarios,the latest being the class action against Wynyard could be going ahead...ugggg...way more turbulence with this share than AirNZ :scared:

[Scrunch]

Scrunch, that would really be nice = insider info , hmmmm !

No insider info, just thinking about what could have caused a small price run-up but would be taking several days to get ready to announce. A breach, clean contract or starting to drawdown against the crappy $10m standby facility could have all been notified more quickly. If they were enquiring about an underwritten rights issue without some good news the possible news leak would have been negative.

[RupertBear]

How long can a TH run?

[BlackPeter]

How long can a TH run?

Google and you shall know ;):

https://nzx.com/files/static/cms-documents/sxdx_trading_halts.pdf

[Bilbo]

Google and you shall know ;):

https://nzx.com/files/static/cms-documents/sxdx_trading_halts.pdf

Thanks for the link. So looks like a TH lasts for up to 48 hours. If the announcement not made within that period NZX can suspend the listing.
"If an announcement has not been made by the agreed time,NZX may suspend the issuer’s securities from quotation. This is to ensure that an issuer makes itsannouncements within the time period it has specified in its application for a trading halt. If more than a48 hour trading halt is needed issuers should approach NZX about a waiver from the disclosure rules orrequest NZX to exercise its power to suspend the issuer’s securities under NZSX and NZDX Listing Rule5.4.2(b) or NZAX Listing Rule A5.3.2(b) (as the case may be) pending the release by the issuer. Whenexercising this power NZX can disclose the grounds for doing so, obviating any negative impression thatmay result from a suspension"

Also interesting that no reason for the TH was released to the market, so the reason must be confidential or commercially sensitive. "The application and the reasons for the trading halt will generally be released to the market together withany other information necessary to keep the market informed. If the reasons for the request areconfidential or commercially sensitive and should not be released to the market, this should be noted inthe issuer’s request to NZX."

[whatsup]

Thanks for the link. So looks like a TH lasts for up to 48 hours. If the announcement not made within that period NZX can suspend the listing.
"If an announcement has not been made by the agreed time,NZX may suspend the issuer’s securities from quotation. This is to ensure that an issuer makes itsannouncements within the time period it has specified in its application for a trading halt. If more than a48 hour trading halt is needed issuers should approach NZX about a waiver from the disclosure rules orrequest NZX to exercise its power to suspend the issuer’s securities under NZSX and NZDX Listing Rule5.4.2(b) or NZAX Listing Rule A5.3.2(b) (as the case may be) pending the release by the issuer. Whenexercising this power NZX can disclose the grounds for doing so, obviating any negative impression thatmay result from a suspension"

Also interesting that no reason for the TH was released to the market, so the reason must be confidential or commercially sensitive. "The application and the reasons for the trading halt will generally be released to the market together withany other information necessary to keep the market informed. If the reasons for the request areconfidential or commercially sensitive and should not be released to the market, this should be noted inthe issuer’s request to NZX."

IMHO if there is contemplation of a corner stone shareholder/ J V partner they WYN are doing that from a very weak position and not in a position to negotiate a very strong deal for all unless a very good trade contract is imminent ( which I doubt ).

[moimoi]

An hour to go before the 48 hours is up...

From the 11th Aug Credit line announcement ""In order to draw down on the facility, certain conditions must be met, including that the Wynyard board must be confident that the company can enter into transactions sufficient to repay any amount drawn down under the facility.""

No significant contract announcements since early March so maybe there is a ? over the confidence level.

You have to wonder if the low volume rise off the 0.17 is a bit of head fake and the more telling signal may have been Milford selling down in volume 3 weeks back....

[RupertBear]

Probably not related but this was in The Herald Monday 10th October, and Sam is a big shareholder in Wynyard...

"Sam Morgan is poised to leave the board of Trade Me, the company he founded and later sold in 2006, with plans to focus on early-stage businesses and his charitable trust."

[golden city]

That is what I think lately as well. Same could be involve this

[RupertBear]

Thanks for the link. So looks like a TH lasts for up to 48 hours. If the announcement not made within that period NZX can suspend the listing.
"If an announcement has not been made by the agreed time,NZX may suspend the issuer’s securities from quotation. This is to ensure that an issuer makes itsannouncements within the time period it has specified in its application for a trading halt. If more than a48 hour trading halt is needed issuers should approach NZX about a waiver from the disclosure rules orrequest NZX to exercise its power to suspend the issuer’s securities under NZSX and NZDX Listing Rule5.4.2(b) or NZAX Listing Rule A5.3.2(b) (as the case may be) pending the release by the issuer. Whenexercising this power NZX can disclose the grounds for doing so, obviating any negative impression thatmay result from a suspension"

Also interesting that no reason for the TH was released to the market, so the reason must be confidential or commercially sensitive. "The application and the reasons for the trading halt will generally be released to the market together withany other information necessary to keep the market informed. If the reasons for the request areconfidential or commercially sensitive and should not be released to the market, this should be noted inthe issuer’s request to NZX."

And the silence continues :confused: hmm the longer this last the harder it is to HOPE the news is positive. I am now thinking the news definitely isnt good :(

[Baa_Baa]

And the silence continues :confused: hmm the longer this last the harder it is to HOPE the news is positive. I am now thinking the news definitely isnt good :(

Ditto. Missed deadline, still in TH, no news. Looks bad.

[biker]

Wynyard GroupMarketUpdate
20 October 2016, Auckland – In August, Wynyard announced that it had secured a stand-
by loan facility to manage the working capital needs of the business.
Due to Wynyard’s current working capital position, the company will need to make an initial partial draw down on this facility in early November. Certain conditions must be met in order
to draw down on this facility. The Board is investigating a number of strategic options so that Wynyard can meet these conditions.
Wynyard has requested that NZX keep its shares in a trading halt until the commencement of trading on Tuesday 25th October 2016 when it will be in a position to update the market.

[blobbles]

Uh ohhhh, they are in trouble... taking 7 days to try and figure out how they can possibly pay back the loan? Not good...

[trackers]

Wynyard GroupMarketUpdate
20 October 2016, Auckland – In August, Wynyard announced that it had secured a stand-
by loan facility to manage the working capital needs of the business.
Due to Wynyard’s current working capital position, the company will need to make an initial partial draw down on this facility in early November. Certain conditions must be met in order
to draw down on this facility. The Board is investigating a number of strategic options so that Wynyard can meet these conditions.
Wynyard has requested that NZX keep its shares in a trading halt until the commencement of trading on Tuesday 25th October 2016 when it will be in a position to update the market.

Wow, I am so surprised! I could save them a few paragraphs:

"We've run out of money, and we don't know how we're going to get any more"

[sb9]

Hmmm...am afraid its devastating news for shareholders, feel sorry for them.

[levin123]

Shareholders, if you haven't signed the class action, no time like the present