Airlines r a great public service, endorsed by Skol.

[Skol]

Good for air, good for this govt backed ........., but us the consumer it suks, we will pay for it, in a poorer service and higher costs.

There is still competiton and AIR has won out. The allusion to poor service at AIR is quite incorrect. AIR is well run, profitable and nothing like what it was 10 years ago. Service is good too compared with other carriers.
How long since you travelled on AIR anyway tricha, or are you hunkering down at Mapua getting ready for the peak oil cataclysm, which, like hyperinflation, never seems to arrive.

[macduffy]

I agree, Skol. AIR is a very well run airline as far as I can tell from my fairly frequent use of their domestic services.

It's just that I don't rate them, or any other airline for that matter, as a suitable investment - for me.

[Oiler]

There is still competiton and AIR has won out. The allusion to poor service at AIR is quite incorrect. AIR is well run, profitable and nothing like what it was 10 years ago. Service is good too compared with other carriers.
How long since you travelled on AIR anyway tricha, or are you hunkering down at Mapua getting ready for the peak oil cataclysm, which, like hyperinflation, never seems to arrive.

Tricha ...while I dont like govt involvement with any private business activities, I suspect the NZG is quite happy to coin in there divies and see there investment in AIR skyrocket. As a very frequent traveller from a regional airport I do not feel like I am being screwed or that the service sucks, quite the opposite. I recently flew AIR to the US and we had the CEO on board who was mingling with the staff and passengers in a very non intrusive way and chatting with passengers.

NOTE... I do not own any AIR shares but hold them in them in very high regard as a passenger. Go fly some of the US domestic/International carriers and you will know "how it suks for the consumer"

[upside_umop]

This isn't really to do with investment, more of a read and laugh. It does have some interesting points in it however....

http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aeFzqJRpOHIM&pos=14

[Skol]

I would say there's a broad recovery underway in the airline industry, insiders have told me that there is huge demand for air freight, the first taxi off the rank in a recovery, something I've noticed myself, and that forward seat bookings are looking very good indeed.

[upside_umop]

Yeah prices certainly seem to be up. Girlfriend booked her flights home to Ireland the other day and was twice as expensive as it would have been two years back in the midst of the GFC. Have you seen these nifty wee (http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1283808402551&chddm=949739&q=GOOGLEINDEX_US:AIRTVL&)things by google? It is only representative of the US, however. Still interesting though.

[Skol]

tricha,
The VBA train has left the station, hope you're on board. LOL
Crossed 200 day MA, check out the volume for the last week or so.

[tricha]

tricha,
The VBA train has left the station, hope you're on board. LOL
Crossed 200 day MA, check out the volume for the last week or so.

WELL done Skol, u have picked it right.

21 September 2010 Last updated at 11:01 GMT

World's airlines to make $8.9bn profit, Iata says


The world's airlines are expected to post a profit of $8.9bn (£5.7bn) this year, an industry body has said, in a sharp upgrade of its previous forecast.
The International Air Transport Association (Iata) said the industry recovery had been "stronger and faster than anyone predicted".
In June, it had predicted a much smaller profit of $2.5bn. In March, it had expected a loss of $2.8bn.
Iata said increasing demand and stable costs were driving the recovery.
However, Iata chief executive Giovanni Bisignani warned that there was still uncertainty surrounding the strength of the recovery.
"The $8.9bn profit that we are projecting will start to recoup the nearly $50bn lost over the previous decade. But a reality check is in order," he said.
"There are lingering doubts about how long this cyclical upturn will last."
But Iata also said that Europe still "lags in the red".
Europe is the only region the organisation still expects to make a loss this year.
However, it now expects a smaller loss of $1.3bn, compared with June's forecast of $2.8bn.

[elZorro]

Here's that nett airline $50 billion loss figure again: and some of the reasons behind it.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10707657

[Skol]

I've already read that today EZ. Don't worry yourself about the airline industry, it's in good health, I've been in it since 1969 and never seen it better.

Long may it last.

The joke in the link is wrong, it goes like this;
You know how to make a small fortune in aviation? Start off with a big one.

[tricha]

I've already read that today EZ. Don't worry yourself about the airline industry, it's in good health, I've been in it since 1969 and never seen it better.

Long may it last.

The joke in the link is wrong, it goes like this;
You know how to make a small fortune in aviation? Start off with a big one.

I'd say the Joke is on u Skol if u still hold this kind of stuff.

The worst six months in Virgin Blue's 10-year history will send the airline well into the red this year as it battles soaring oil prices.:scared:

[Skol]

Don't worry about the airline industry, the POO a minor setback, like Christchurch and Japan, s*** happens, we just manage it.

Loads and cargo are good.

Hows the Transition Towns going, all quiet there, still in touch with Fidel?

[tricha]

Don't worry about the airline industry, the POO a minor setback, like Christchurch and Japan, s*** happens, we just manage it.

Loads and cargo are good.

Hows the Transition Towns going, all quiet there, still in touch with Fidel?

Transition is going WELL thanks Skol, 500 kg of grapes produced.

U did not answer as usual Skol, are u still invested, seems a repeat of the last oil spike, so does that mean we are all about to get our arses kicked again :confused:

30 March 2011 Last updated at 04:16 GMT



Qantas says natural disasters will dent profits

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51916000/jpg/_51916544_001255693-1.jpg Reduced travel demand to Japan and New Zealand is forcing Qantas to suspend some flights.


Qantas Airways has warned that profits at the company will be hurt by the recent natural disasters in Japan, New Zealand and Australia.
The company has announced that it is suspending some flights and downsizing capacity on others from Australia to Japan and New Zealand.
Demand for travel to Japan has fallen following the earthquake on 11 March and amid fears of radiation leaks.
Qantas said the natural disasters will cost the company $140m (£87m).
"There has never been a time when the world faced so many natural disasters, all of which have come at a significant financial cost to the Qantas Group," said Alan Joyce, chief executive officer of Qantas.
The carrier said that the grounding of its A380 jets last year will also affect profits.
One of Qantas' superjumbos made an emergency landing after experiencing engine trouble shortly after taking off from Singapore on its way to Sydney last November.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12902870#story_continues_2) “Start Quote

We need to act decisively to respond to rising fuel costs and natural disasters, just like we did during the global financial crisis”
End Quote Alan Joyce Chief Executive Officer, Qantas
The airline grounded all six of its fleet of Airbus A380 airliners to carry out safety inspections.
The company has put the cost of grounding the jets at $80m.
'Serious challenge'
Apart from natural disasters, airlines worldwide have also had to deal with rising fuel costs in the wake of the unrest in Libya and the Middle East.
Mr Joyce said this posed a serious threat to the company's profits.
"The significant and sustained increases in the price of fuel is the most serious challenge Qantas has faced since the global financial crisis," he said.
Qantas has already increased domestic airfares and international fuel surcharges this year in response to rising fuel prices.
Its subsidiary, budget airline Jetstar, also put up fares and increased ancillary revenue, including baggage charges on some domestic and international routes.
However, Qantas said the increase was not enough to offset the rise in the fuel prices and it needed to take further measures to ensure long term profitability.
"We need to act decisively to respond to rising fuel costs and natural disasters, just like we did during the global financial crisis, to ensure the ongoing sustainability of our business," Mr Joyce said.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51916000/jpg/_51916972_jex_1002987_de32-1.jpg Please turn on JavaScript. Media requires JavaScript to play.







Advertisement (http://faq.external.bbc.co.uk/questions/bbc_online/adverts_general)

Watch Siva Govindasamy from Flightglobal talk about the challenges Qantas faces.

[Skol]

Transition is going WELL thanks Skol, 500 kg of grapes produced.

U did not answer as usual Skol, are u still invested, seems a repeat of the last oil spike, so does that mean we are all about to get our arses kicked again :confused:

Yep, still invested, had my whole life invested in aviation since 1969.
Was on a long-haul flight 2 days ago to the UK, full, and 15 tonnes of perishables and other cargo as well.

500kg of grapes, what do ya do with those, feed them to the cows. LOL

[tricha]

Yep, still invested, had my whole life invested in aviation since 1969.
Was on a long-haul flight 2 days ago to the UK, full, and 15 tonnes of perishables and other cargo as well.

500kg of grapes, what do ya do with those, feed them to the cows. LOL

WELL looks like airlines are back to "Crash and Burn" a dam shame u could not get these fuel prices down eh Skol, we would all be better off.
They all look the same as the picture below, when the Nato forces ( oil thieves) take over Libya, we might see some short term relief.


QANQantas Airways Limited FPOhttp://www.stocknessmonster.com/images/australia.gif http://www.stocknessmonster.com/chart/stockness/hist2/ASX/QAN/1y/line/30/0/

[Crypto Crude]

Things must be getting tight... With the Chilean Ash cloud most airlines are still flying... But Qantas is choosing not to fly because flying above or below the cloud fuel costs are 1o% higher...

skol,
dont be a weasel..

:cool:
.^sc

[drillfix]

Hi Shrewdy,

I would say that Qantas have 1st hand experience from not so long ago with one of their flights got got caught over Indo somewhere and had to make an emergency landing due to Volcanic Ash so therefore, IMO, Qantas themselves would probably adopted a new policy or protocol to stick to regardless of what other airlines would do.

Seems only logical since they had a near disaster on plate not so long ago, and again, only IMO.

[Skol]

Volcanic ash a problem for domestic flights but most international flights probably OK, fly underneath ift for a while and then it's all back to normal.

I see the USD's well up and oil is $95, on its way south once again. Looking forward to some good profits from the airlines, AIR should do particularly well.

[Skol]

$25 billion in orders for the first day of the Paris Airshow. Not bad, 17 orders for the new 747-8 Intercontinental, the airline industry has its setbacks but I see bermuda 's been in Portugal, so you can bet he hasn't sailed there.

[tricha]

$25 billion in orders for the first day of the Paris Airshow. Not bad, 17 orders for the new 747-8 Intercontinental, the airline industry has its setbacks but I see bermuda 's been in Portugal, so you can bet he hasn't sailed there.

Air is a dog of a company, state owned and they screwed Origin Pacific, now we, that fly from provinical centres are screwed,
There is no competion, I used to be able to rock up at Nelson airport on the day and fly to Ch Ch for $100, try it now.:confused:
The sad thing is if u have a family emergency, u r well and truely screwed.:t_down: Shame on them.

[Skol]

Air is a dog of a company, state owned and they screwed Origin Pacific, now we, that fly from provinical centres are screwed,
There is no competion, I used to be able to rock up at Nelson airport on the day and fly to Ch Ch for $100, try it now.:confused:
The sad thing is if u have a family emergency, u r well and truely screwed.:t_down: Shame on them.

I wouldn't mind betting that you're a troublesome passenger, one that AIR would rather do without.
Had any written warnings lately?

[macduffy]

AIR is just taking full advantage of its virtually monopoly position as an air carrier on regional routes.

Strange though that the Commerce Commission doesn't take a closer look at times - as it does with its heavy hand on TEL. But I guess you need some other competitor(s) before you can declare an anti-competitive practice!

[Skol]

Air NZ has heaps of competition, Qantas, Air National, Ansett until their incompetent management sent them bust, anyone can set up in competition.

[macduffy]

Qantas on regional routes?

Air National, a charter operator.

If Air New Zealand was treated in the same way as TEL they would have to make their aircraft available to every newcomer who wanted to enter the market!

[Skol]

Qantas on regional routes?

Qantas can fly regional if they want too. Another operator using Air NZ's aircraft is not the way it works in aviation. You can dry lease or wet lease.

[CJ]

If Air New Zealand was treated in the same way as TEL they would have to make their aircraft available to every newcomer who wanted to enter the market!Fonterra would be another example - dont they have to provide their product to competitors at effectively cost??

[macduffy]

Qantas can fly regional if they want too. Another operator using Air NZ's aircraft is not the way it works in aviation. You can dry lease or wet lease.

Sorry, Skol.

I should have used a "joke" symbol! Just trying to make the point of the iniquity of selling an asset to the NZ public (TEL) and then requiring the owners to make that asset available to competitors.

I should add that I think AIR is a fine airline as far as that goes - I wouldn't fly on any other by choice - but that doesn't make it a good investment IMO.

[Skol]

Sorry, Skol.

I should have used a "joke" symbol! Just trying to make the point of the iniquity of selling an asset to the NZ public (TEL) and then requiring the owners to make that asset available to competitors.

I should add that I think AIR is a fine airline as far as that goes - I wouldn't fly on any other by choice - but that doesn't make it a good investment IMO.

No worries, airlines a hard business to make money in, huge capital required, skilled people, lots of safety regulations, natural disasters to cope with. Mind you they always seem to have money for touchy feely courses which they spend millions on, hand-holding exercises where they play with plasticine and nonsense like that.

[BIRMANBOY]

I agree that "touch feely" seems excessive to a lot of people (me included), but if it keeps the pilots, staff, engineers, groundcrew and all the workers happy and focussed on providing a good, safe experience i for one am happy to let them do it. After travelling on some south american airlines a number of years ago, i needed some extensive handholding myself :-)
No worries, airlines a hard business to make money in, huge capital required, skilled people, lots of safety regulations, natural disasters to cope with. Mind you they always seem to have money for touchy feely courses which they spend millions on, hand-holding exercises where they play with plasticine and nonsense like that.

[modandm]

AIR is just taking full advantage of its virtually monopoly position as an air carrier on regional routes.

Strange though that the Commerce Commission doesn't take a closer look at times - as it does with its heavy hand on TEL. But I guess you need some other competitor(s) before you can declare an anti-competitive practice!

Based on AIR's last profit guidance of $0 for the 6 months to June - it is hardly gauging customers. Any arguments to the contrary are communist crap and unfair against AIR when they are one of few large companies in NZ not earning their cost of capital.

The problem is everyone wants to fly for $50 anywhere in NZ or $150 each way across the tasman - while taking no account of millions of dollars of costs incurred by airlines in providing this essential service... Planes, pilots, cabin crew head office fuel etc etc.

Rational pricing means you will have to pay $100 on average to fly Auckland to Wellington ($300 if late subsidising cheaper pax). And on smaller turbojets where the cost per seat is higher you might pay $150 one way ($400 if late subsidising cheaper pax). Just cos you got a cheap seat once doesn't mean you should expect it.

Someone complained Christchurch to wellington has gone for $49 to $59 for the lead in fares... obviously a plane full of $59 fare payers makes a loss so you are actually being subsidised by higher yielding pax. And if you consider the cook straight ferry is $69 one way pax only - Air Travel is very competitively priced.

Its amazing on a sharetrader website we have people complaining companies are rip-offs and making too much money - if you want to bitch and moan go to the consumer forums

[Skol]

They can always go on Grabaseat for example and buy $1 fares which turn up from time-to-time. Being in the industry I get a pretty good deal, but not that good. Flying's never been cheaper, but you almost always get what you pay for. Try Jetstar, see how that one turns out.

tricha complains that if you have a family emergency, you're screwed. Welcome to the real world, should the airlines subsidise those with family problems? Hard to believe a comment like that on a capitalist website, you just have to pay the money. tricha probably thinks AIR should subsidise the provinces and main trunk pax pay more.

[BIRMANBOY]

Totally agree. Every business (even Air NZ ) is entitled to make a profit...if they dont and still exist year after year then obviously some entity is propping them up for political or other reasons. Its a free market economy..if people dont like the prices or service they get then they can stop using the product or service. If the regional service is less than generous its because its probably a loser in the profit dept and has to be trimmed to maximize efficiency. People choosing to live in areas that dont get served well by infrastructure or services need to accomodate to whats available and be thankful they have some service as opposed to none.
Based on AIR's last profit guidance of $0 for the 6 months to June - it is hardly gauging customers. Any arguments to the contrary are communist crap and unfair against AIR when they are one of few large companies in NZ not earning their cost of capital.

The problem is everyone wants to fly for $50 anywhere in NZ or $150 each way across the tasman - while taking no account of millions of dollars of costs incurred by airlines in providing this essential service... Planes, pilots, cabin crew head office fuel etc etc.

Rational pricing means you will have to pay $100 on average to fly Auckland to Wellington ($300 if late subsidising cheaper pax). And on smaller turbojets where the cost per seat is higher you might pay $150 one way ($400 if late subsidising cheaper pax). Just cos you got a cheap seat once doesn't mean you should expect it.

Someone complained Christchurch to wellington has gone for $49 to $59 for the lead in fares... obviously a plane full of $59 fare payers makes a loss so you are actually being subsidised by higher yielding pax. And if you consider the cook straight ferry is $69 one way pax only - Air Travel is very competitively priced.

Its amazing on a sharetrader website we have people complaining companies are rip-offs and making too much money - if you want to bitch and moan go to the consumer forums

[macduffy]

I'm a bit surprised that modandm quoted my post in his/her reply above.

Just for the record, I wasn't "bitching and moaning" about AIR, merely pointing out that their servicing of regional routes - not the main trunk - is a virtual monopoly and that they will naturally take advantage of that in setting fare levels. There's probably a bit of cross-subsidisation from regionals to main trunk, but that's beside the point as far as this discussion is concerned.

[modandm]

Air is a dog of a company, state owned and they screwed Origin Pacific, now we, that fly from provinical centres are screwed,
There is no competion, I used to be able to rock up at Nelson airport on the day and fly to Ch Ch for $100, try it now.:confused:
The sad thing is if u have a family emergency, u r well and truely screwed.:t_down: Shame on them.

apologies McDuff - probabally because this gem of an opinion was on the prior page.

Nonetheless calling for domestic air travel to be regulated is equally to be condemned. However perhaps you were being ironic with regard to TEL.

No hard feelings

[Skol]

Even though I've been in the airline industry for 42 years if I want to go somewhere, I have connections and I need to get there for vacation I pay just what you guys do. Normally I buy business class fares on Emirates or Thai or whoever has the best deal going.

I can get some pretty cheap fares, but they don't guarantee I'll get there when I want to.

[Skol]

AIR are quite innovative, they've got spare time on their 747's at the moment so Grabaseat are doing a couple of flights direct from AKL to Las Vegas including accomodation.
They did one last year.

[tricha]

They can always go on Grabaseat for example and buy $1 fares which turn up from time-to-time. Being in the industry I get a pretty good deal, but not that good. Flying's never been cheaper, but you almost always get what you pay for. Try Jetstar, see how that one turns out.

tricha complains that if you have a family emergency, you're screwed. Welcome to the real world, should the airlines subsidise those with family problems? Hard to believe a comment like that on a capitalist website, you just have to pay the money. tricha probably thinks AIR should subsidise the provinces and main trunk pax pay more.

Like I said we had competion here with Origin Pacific, u could turn up on the day and if there was a spare seat, u could get a flight for $100

Air New Zealand which was bailed out by the govt screwed Origin by reducing fares on their flight paths, so low, they could not compete.

So this communist bailed Airline shoud have been left to rot.

Bailed out by us tax payers and we get screwed twice. From memory they took over Ansett and screwed them to the wall as well.

Air New Zealnd is a bit of joke. They will probably go broke again and the govt will then give them more money.:t_down:

[Skol]

Like I said we had competion here with Origin Pacific, u could turn up on the day and if there was a spare seat, u could get a flight for $100

Air New Zealand which was bailed out by the govt screwed Origin by reducing fares on their flight paths, so low, they could not compete.

So this communist bailed Airline shoud have been left to rot.

Bailed out by us tax payers and we get screwed twice. From memory they took over Ansett and screwed them to the wall as well.

Air New Zealnd is a bit of joke. They will probably go broke again and the govt will then give them more money.:t_down:



You've been hanging out with your Cuban mates again tricha, I suppose you think AIR should run subsidised flights to the boondocks and have spare seats just waiting for you.
You've got a bee in your bonnet about AIR and I really think you're a closet commy.

You should think yourself lucky, you could be flying Cubana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cubana_de_Aviaci%C3%B3n_accidents_and_inci dents

You're a curmudgeon tricha, give the missus a treat and buy a couple of those seats to Vegas. You could even have some fun, maybe.

[Skol]

Should've bought yourself a few VBA tricha. Up 16% today, not bad. Looks as if Tiger might be grounded for longer than initially thought, maybe out of the market altogether.

[Skol]

Hey tricha, got your VBA's yet?

Up 23% in 4 days, hard to beat at the moment.

[Skol]

Now Jetstar's in strife for some improper maintenance with 4 aircraft on the ground, all this could be very profitable for VB.

Tiger on the ground until at least August 1st.

[Crypto Crude]

Im flying jetstar...
VBA for wombats...
:eek2:->sc

[Skol]

Im flying jetstar...
VBA for wombats...
:eek2:->sc

Don't be surprised if you look out the window and see a bit of 600mph tape keeping things together.

[CAM]

How is the proposed Aussie carbon tax going to effect these guys or Aussie airlines in general.
I think I heard Qantas talking about a cost in the tens of millions...can't quite remember.
Will they be able to pass these costs on?

[Skol]

They probably won't have to worry about it because Julia Gillard will lose the next election.

[CAM]

Haha...yeah true. But I guess it does create a bit of uncertainty for the time being...or a buying opportunity

[tricha]

Hey tricha, got your VBA's yet?

Up 23% in 4 days, hard to beat at the moment.

Looks they ran out of gas.

[macduffy]

Qantas to "slash 1,000 jobs."

http://www.smh.com.au/business/new-qantas-to-slash-about-1000-jobs-20110816-1ivcn.html

[Skol]

Qantas is self-destructing, too bad a great airline going down the toilet, otherwise business is booming. Thousands of aircraft on order and over the next 20 years 466,000 pilots are required.


There's going to be a lot of newbies at the controls so think about that next time you book your low cost airline seat. It's true; you get what you pay for, that's why Tiger was grounded.

[Oiler]

Qantas is self-destructing, too bad a great airline going down the toilet, otherwise business is booming. Thousands of aircraft on order and over the next 20 years 466,000 pilots are required.


There's going to be a lot of newbies at the controls so think about that next time you book your low cost airline seat. It's true; you get what you pay for, that's why Tiger was grounded.

:t_up: all the more reason to book with trusted established full service airlines. Disclaimer: I don't work for Air NZ (did years ago) :D

SKOL I think QA has been self destructing for a few years. On a QA flight from LAX to AKL we almost landed on a closed runway at AKL airport, did a fly around and landed only to have an overhead panel fall out on my head at touchdown........ for me, no more flying QA. :scared:

They need a major overhaul to stay competitive.

[drillfix]

Qantas to "slash 1,000 jobs."

http://www.smh.com.au/business/new-qantas-to-slash-about-1000-jobs-20110816-1ivcn.html


Very Sad really.

Money Money, and BS excuses to make it, when not matter what you do, (even if you call it re-branding) to cut to the chase, all they are doing is hiring Cheap Labour to create this profit.

I dont fly heaps but tell ya what, fk it, I wont be flying Qantas.

[Huang Chung]

Very Sad really.

Money Money, and BS excuses to make it, when not matter what you do, (even if you call it re-branding) to cut to the chase, all they are doing is hiring Cheap Labour to create this profit.

I dont fly heaps but tell ya what, fk it, I wont be flying Qantas.

I think there is a good chance they could balls things up completely here......

[drillfix]

I think there is a good chance they could balls things up completely here......


Agree HC, the F' up time bomb has been built.

What I dont understand is what exactly and how are they going to be different?

Its just different coloured airplanes flying around with the same Under Paid people flying them and servicing them.

A complete Joke really being run by a greedy front cutting Irishman whom has NO CARE or concern for the past, only the future love of greed.

Everything about whatever is Australian seems to end up cashed up and sold off like some Pawn Shop, which is completely pathetic.

[macduffy]

From a recent interview with Alan Joyce, CEO of Qantas:

"Through the cycle, the Qantas flying businesses don’t return the cost of capital. In peak times, they do and we need to make sure that those businesses are sustainable through the cycle. "

That, in essence, is why airlines don't make good investments, IMO.

[Skol]

Bad industrial problems at Qantas, maybe that's why VBA shares are tearing away.

Up 56% in the last few weeks.

[Skol]

All QAN aircraft effectively grounded, they've locked them out, could be very good for VBA.

[lissica]

I just about fell out of my chair. They're not just grounding a few planes, they're grounding all flights. Where I work, we have people that flyin/out on a daily basis. Think of the mines- they have thousands of fly in/fly out workers, mostly on Qantas.

I'm thinking Regional Express (REX) would do well too. Airports- not so sure...disruptions might be good for these glorified shopping malls- more people stuck in airports, more people spending.

http://tinyurl.com/3cloc8f

"The airline said at 5pm AEDT today there were 64 aircraft in the air - 36 domestic and 28 international - carrying more than 7000 passengers.
These aircraft will complete the sectors they are operating and will then be grounded.
In total 108 aircraft will be grounded in 22 airports around the world.
The airline said 13,305 passengers were booked to travel on Qantas planes from overseas ports to Australia in the next 24 hours."

[Skol]

Yeah, the CEO's just had a 71% pay increase. Nice.

[Huang Chung]

Wall to wall coverage on Sky Business News over here. This is huge.

108 aircraft grounded at 22 airports across the globe. Government is scrambling and shocked. VBA looking to source spare aircraft from Singapore Airlines, Ethiad, Delta and Air New Zealand. VBA also offering cheap fares for dislocated QFA passengers.

[Skol]

I believe Air NZ has a couple of 747's available, could make a few bucks out of this one.

[Huang Chung]

It appears that Joyce is trying to fore the Government to intervene and force a resolution.

Probably all over by Monday.

[percy]

It appears that Joyce is trying to fore the Government to intervene and force a resolution.

Probably all over by Monday.

Has been brewing for years. No middle ground left.

[Skol]

I don't agree with the Occupy Wall Street protestors but when Joyce earns $5 million and the TWU is asking for $1/hr pay increase to $21, something's wrong. It's the kind of corporate greed (along with all the other problems at QF) that could get Joyce the sack.

[Huang Chung]

VBA organizing additional flights, including getting Air !New Zealand to fly some of Pacific Blue's trans Tasman flights, freeing up Pacific Blue planes to fly domestically. Also extra capacity from Singapore and Ethiad coming on board.

[Skol]

QAN shares will probably be massacred tomorrow, could be a bargain.

[drillfix]

A good possibility there Skol.

Bit of a a bounce trade though one must make sure there will be some support in place which I am sure there will at some stage.

[Skol]

This is going to go on for some time yet so I won't be jumping in, the share price will probably decline until there's some light at the end of the tunnel.

I'll be watching VBA today.

[CAM]

over???

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10762827

but I would be reluctant to book a flight on a Qantas plane!!

[Skol]

over???

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10762827

but I would be reluctant to book a flight on a Qantas plane!!

Yep, Julia Gillard has just come out criticizing QAN's 'extreme' measures. While I'm a capitalist at heart,Joyce taking a $2,000,000 bonus and then sticking the knife into the staff won't have made him any friends, especially with a Labour Gummint.

Then there's also the matter of the damage to QAN's reputation and the ongoing cost.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Skol IMHO he is trying to wreck Quantas so that he gets a low cost airline. But after two episodes with Jet Star he would need to give me a free ticket & pay me $100.00 per hour from normal check in time to 30 minutes after disembarking from the Flight
Over 6 hours late on one flight.

[Skol]

Correct, my daughter went to Singapore and back on Jetstar a few months ago and said it was one of the worst experiences of her life. Rude, ignorant staff and cabin crew, worn out aircraft, inedible food, poor on-time performance.

You always get what you pay for.

www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/5883279/The-battle-Qantas-can-t-afford to lose

Notice the part about angry staff, they can ruin your business. Sometimes I wonder if the QF management have thought this through.

[tricha]

I don't agree with the Occupy Wall Street protestors but when Joyce earns $5 million and the TWU is asking for $1/hr pay increase to $21, something's wrong. It's the kind of corporate greed (along with all the other problems at QF) that could get Joyce the sack.

WELL I would have to agree with you on this one Skol, looks like we must both be watching Max and Stacy.:)

[Skol]

A glowing review of VBA's John Borghetti in today's AFR. He missed out on the top job at QF that Joyce got, so no doubt his company's cashed in on the chaos and he's enjoying the $10m bonus VBA got out of Joyce's tantrum.

Borghetti's turning VBA from a budget carrier to a budget carrier with lounges and business class. Not bad for a guy that started in the QF mailroom 40 years ago. The article says there's no one in Australia that understands the domestic market better than him.

VBA up 67% in the last few weeks, nice one.

[tricha]

A glowing review of VBA's John Borghetti in today's AFR. He missed out on the top job at QF that Joyce got, so no doubt his company's cashed in on the chaos and he's enjoying the $10m bonus VBA got out of Joyce's tantrum.

Borghetti's turning VBA from a budget carrier to a budget carrier with lounges and business class. Not bad for a guy that started in the QF mailroom 40 years ago. The article says there's no one in Australia that understands the domestic market better than him.

VBA up 67% in the last few weeks, nice one.

Dear me Skol, u seem to have a time line of a cat, about 5 seconds.

Airlines has a close relation, dinosaurs:t_up:


29 November 2011 Last updated at 12:37 GMT American Airlines file for Chapter 11 protection
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49105000/gif/_49105732_bn-304x171.gif
American Airlines' parent company AMR Corporation has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

[Skol]

They must be doing something wrong tricha because the airline business is going pretty well. There are other implications for bankruptcies in the USA, the Court can change employee contracts.

If you want to check on the airline industry check how many orders Boeing and Airbus have under their belts. - thousands.

[Skol]

Yes tricha, I thought so, I've just been reading an article on AMR, they're not actually broke, but they're losing money, going into Chapter 11 will allow them to renegotiate the labour contracts, they've got $4 billion in the bank.

The airline will keep operating quite normally.

[Skol]

One of the main reasons airlines don't make a lot of money is the extortionate price of oil. Once oil reaches a reasonable price then airlines will be like any other investment.

We've been ripped off for years by the Arabs, they've got it coming to them. I bristle when I see their wives and children in Harrods spending tens of thousands. They book out hotels in London for months over their summer.

Better not ever come to my place asking for donations for the starving arabs.

[Crypto Crude]

skol, get with this oil biz...

airplanes are toys for kids...
grow up
:cool:
.^sc

[Skol]

skol, get with this oil biz...

airplanes are toys for kids...
grow up
:cool:
.^sc

Well I like them, try doing your next overseas holiday without aircraft.

[Crypto Crude]

all I see is negatives,

all you see is, a toy that you like...

dont invest in something cos you like it... sounds like this is a hobby for you...


airlines,
huge costs->oil...
strong unions...
fierce competition..
airplanes are a huge depreciating asset... aging airline fleets...


:cool:
.^sc

[Huang Chung]

Well I like them, try doing your next overseas holiday without aircraft.

I like them also, but, besides a small dabble with REX several years ago, I don't invest in them.

[Skol]

all I see is negatives,

all you see is, a toy that you like...

dont invest in something cos you like it... sounds like this is a hobby for you...


airlines,
huge costs->oil...
strong unions...
fierce competition..
airplanes are a huge depreciating asset... aging airline fleets...


:cool:
.^sc

Huge costs, oil. That's because we've been ripped off for years by greedy Arabs, starting about 1973, I'll welcome the day the Arabs come begging for help because the POO is $4.

Strong unions. Not necessarily so. The thing is that mostly the airline business is very specialised and requires competent, skilled labour that airlines can't do without like engineers and pilots. Would you fly on an airline that imported cheap, inexperienced Asian or Russian pilots? You can outsource to China but the quality control is very poor as many airlines know. Air France sent an A340 to Xiamen recently and after flying it for a month found 30 screws missing. They've torn up their contract with them.

Fierce competition, correct.

Airplanes do depreciate but most airlines lease these days so all the costs would be deductible. You can buy older aircraft for a song so it's a trade-off, POO or expensive leases/debt. Air NZ bought a 747 recently for around $12m, a new 777 (very fuel efficient) costs $300m. Boeing and Airbus have record orders on their books.

When it's going well you can make a fortune in aviation.

[Corporate]

Skol, $4 oil. Are you serious!

[Skol]

Skol, $4 oil. Are you serious!

You never know, if Mitt Romney gets to be President he's going to unleash a wave of drilling and exploration. Someone said it, "drill, baby, drill!"

[Crypto Crude]

4 dollar oil... lol...
Skol,
sell me your house for 100 bucka...
:t_up:
.^sc

[Skol]

4 dollar oil... lol...
Skol,
sell me your house for 100 bucka...
:t_up:
.^sc

Here's something an 'expert' like you might not know. If cars keep getting as efficient as they have been over the last few years the Iranian economy, which relies entirely on oil exports could get wiped out in about 20 years time.

[Skol]

VAH up 7% today after a 118% increase in profit.

Told you to buy some tricha.

[STRAT]

Skol, $4 oil. Are you serious!Hes a serious Fisherman :D

No shortage of nibbles around here, either

[JBmurc]

"Air NZ earnings plummet" ...........And AIRNZ is one of the best in the world ....

[Skol]

"Air NZ earnings plummet" ...........And AIRNZ is one of the best in the world ....



Yes, a very good company, but I own VAH, check it out.

[JBmurc]

Yes, a very good company, but I own VAH, check it out.

Don't you work in the Airline sector Skol not one of the jobs going from AIR ??

[Skol]

Yes I work in the airline sector, redundancies occur all the time, no big deal. I started in the airline world in 1969, worked for several airlines and never been made redundant, I'm obviously indispensable.

[digger]

Yes I work in the airline sector, redundancies occur all the time, no big deal. I started in the airline world in 1969, worked for several airlines and never been made redundant, I'm obviously indispensable.



Just for a laugh Skol and from your comments one can assume that as you know yourself better than anyone else could possibly understand that on many occasions you wisely dispensed yourself

[trackers]

Yes I work in the airline sector, redundancies occur all the time, no big deal. I started in the airline world in 1969, worked for several airlines and never been made redundant, I'm obviously indispensable.

Good thing you decided to get a job in the airline industry... If you'd gone after a career requiring economic expertise (sharemarket/oil/precious metal investments) you would have been fired many times over by now I suspect

[Skol]

Good thing you decided to get a job in the airline industry... If you'd gone after a career requiring economic expertise (sharemarket/oil/precious metal investments) you would have been fired many times over by now I suspect

Probably, but you don't need to be a university graduate to get ahead, they're the ones that have got us in the sht we're in now, but I'm more than likely the '1%'.



Not too bad for a guy who left NZ in 1969 with $50 my father gave me to see me through a week or two.

Still think I'd do a lot better than most of the gold 'analysts' though.

[trackers]

^ can't argue with that :)

[Skol]

VAH up 3.4% today on an upgrade from MacQuarie.

[winner69]

VAH up 3.4% today on an upgrade from MacQuarie.

A funny world we live in .... on the day Macquarie get downgraded by the ratings agency they upgrade an airline

[Skol]

Dunno about Maquarie but the airline business is going OK.

I started in it in 1969, and it's going better than I ever expected, what with the goldbugs predicting the end of time, but it's 2012, the Illuminati, the New World Order and all that.

There's a backlog of 4000 aircraft to build.

[macduffy]

There's a backlog of 4000 aircraft to build.

OK, so it's a good business for Boeing and Airbus.

Doesn't alter the fact that most airlines struggle to make profits, most of the time.

[Skol]

Yes it's a cuthroat business, but it's a lot cheaper to fly now taking inflation into account than it was 20 years ago.

[macduffy]

Yes, there's plenty of competition in most instances. Great for consumers, but............

[biker]

All Good.





Despite Qantas’ protestations Virgin Australia is pushing ahead with its planned restructuring and the separation of its domestic and international operations via a new corporate structure.

As is the case with all airlines with international operations, Virgin has a 49 per cent cap on foreign ownership of its shares to protect the bilateral rights it has been granted after government-to-government negotiations.



Last month John Borghetti announced plans for a new corporate structure that would place Virgin’s international business within a new unlisted structure with a continuing 49 per cent cap on foreign ownership. Shares in the new entity, which would have only nominal value, would be distributed to existing shareholders via an in specie distribution.

Today Virgin announced that all pre-conditions for the proposal had been satisfied or waived and set out a timeline for execution of the restructuring, which will be completed on March 30. That presumably means that it has obtained approval for the restructuring from the Department of Transport, or at least that the department hasn’t objected to it.

Qantas has protested the restructuring, claiming it would put Virgin in breach of the air service agreements with other countries and enable foreigners to control the airlines’ international operations.

It has made a submission to the International Air Services Commission to that effect, although it would appear self-evident that Virgin’s announcement today says that it is satisfied it will comply with the Air Navigation Act and hasn’t heard anything to the contrary from Canberra.

There are two reasons why Qantas might be displeased with the Virgin restructuring.

Virgin already has Richard Branson (with a 26 per cent stake) and Air New Zealand (20 per cent) on its register, leaving little scope for any further foreign investors within the 49 per cent foreign ownership limit. Etihad’s James Hogan has made no secret of his desire to also own a slice of the group.

By freeing up the holding company from the restrictions on foreign ownership Virgin will create space for Etihad, and other foreign airlines and investors, to buy in. That will help secure and cement the raft of alliances Borghetti has negotiated since becoming chief executive but should also bring about a re-rating of Virgin’s shares once it can tap into a new source of demand.

Qantas’ frustration is that it can’t emulate Virgin because it is subject to the particular legislation of the Qantas Sales Act.

Qantas has tried on several occasions to have the restrictions on foreign ownership relaxed, arguing that because foreign ownership of its shares has generally been close to the ceiling its share price has been artificially depressed – it has said in the past by between 10 per cent and 20 per cent – and therefore its cost of capital artificially elevated.

During the ill-fated private equity bid for Qantas one of the factors that led to the offer was a view that Qantas was undervalued by the sharemarket precisely because of that distorted supply and demand equation.

While the national interest in the national flag carrier could, if Qantas were allowed to emulate Virgin’s structure, be satisfied via the creation of a ‘golden share’ or other measures, after last year’s confrontation with its unions the relations between Qantas and the current federal government are poisonous.

There is no prospect of any relaxation of the Qantas Sales Act and, indeed, there have been mutterings in Canberra about toughening the Act to impose even more restrictions on Qantas’ ability to develop new flying operations outside the Qantas brand or to conduct maintenance offshore.

Qantas’ chagrin at the prospect of its main domestic competitor being able to do what it cannot is understandable, but there’s little it can do about it other than watch as Borghetti’s frenzied remaking of Virgin continues apace.

[macduffy]

QAN issues 90% profit slump warning.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-nosedives-on-profit-warning-20120605-1zsxk.html

[drillfix]

QAN issues 90% profit slump warning.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-nosedives-on-profit-warning-20120605-1zsxk.html

Thats because the Qantas CEO has a nice chunk of a pay rise, the prick.

Getting paid to F' up one of Australia's greatest icons.

[Skol]

Thats because the Qantas CEO has a nice chunk of a pay rise, the prick.

Getting paid to F' up one of Australia's greatest icons.

You're right there!

[macduffy]

Thanks to Nathan Field for this reminder!

http://www.gmi.co.nz/news/1375/turbulent-journey-for-airline-investors.aspx?utm_source=morgan%2Bonline%2Bjune%2 B12&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=airlines

[Skol]

Thanks to Nathan Field for this reminder!

http://www.gmi.co.nz/news/1375/turbulent-journey-for-airline-investors.aspx?utm_source=morgan%2Bonline%2Bjune%2 B12&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=airlines


I own VAH not QAN, run by the gay irish dwarf.

[skid]

Getting a bit carried away there skol-lets keep it civil

[Skol]

Getting a bit carried away there skol-lets keep it civil

There's nothing untruthful or abusive about it.

[skid]

Is he really a dwarf and is there any reason to state he is gay?--disc.-i know nothing about him.
I have a paradoxical approach to airlines--I wouldnt go near any of them in terms of investment-but I would hate to see to many go against the wall as i like to travel.

[Skol]

Is he really a dwarf and is there any reason to state he is gay?--disc.-i know nothing about him.
I have a paradoxical approach to airlines--I wouldnt go near any of them in terms of investment-but I would hate to see to many go against the wall as i like to travel.

There's plenty of airlines, some with much better service than QAN.

[macduffy]

There's plenty of airlines, some with much better service than QAN.

True, but it would be a little easier for some of them to lower those standards if they didn't have QAN to compete with.

[tricha]

Its not looking particually good, is it Skol.

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-08-18/running-empty-big-airlines-big-trouble

Running on empty: big airlines in big trouble by Andrew McKay
I have a joke with a friend of mine that airline pilots are nothing but glorified bus drivers. As cynical as this may be, for the majority of us with regular jobs who fly economy air travel is increasingly becoming like its land-based cousin: cramped, overcrowded and at times downright unpleasant.
Most people living in our modern industrial society take air travel for granted. We think very little about hopping on a plane and travelling around the world for little more than a couple of weeks wages. As jet fuel prices bounce along with the price of crude however many airlines are increasingly struggling to break even. Fuel prices now account for 35 percent of operating costs (http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20110605/PC05/306059966) compared to 15 percent a decade ago. Air travel has always been a fickle business, earning an average net profit of one to two percent (http://www.avjobs.com/history/airline-economics.asp#.UCmPJqHiaf4), compared with an average of over five percent for U.S. industry as a whole. Research from the 1980s (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/article/Academy-Strategic-Management-Journal/166751812.html) found that some carriers would have zero profitability if they had lost just one out of ten business passengers.
So how does the future look for the airline industry? If recent trends are anything to go by, not good. Not good at all.

Plane Trends

[Skol]

Been great for me tricha, motoring along pretty well. There's an 8000 jet backlog that Airbus and Boeing have to clear and Boeing estimate demand for 34,000 airliners by 2029.

There's a requirement for 466,000 pilots and 565,000 engineers over the next 20 years, and that's just to cover retirements, not the larger global fleet.

You should have bought some VAH shares, up 100% in the last year

[skid]

Well,lets hope it keeps bouncing along.
If it doesnt ,the inevitable outcome will be astronomical priced air travel as companys pack it in and competition evaporates.
I was able to find enough seats to lie down coming back from Southeast asia with Thai air--It was geat,but a worry[it sure was luxury,even in economy compared to Jetstar,the trip before]
As a sidebar-I met a number of people who have given up the western life and gotten a retirement visa and where living ,what they considered the good life ,on the cheap in Thailand[good to know in case you lose all your money investing in airline shares]

[macduffy]

Qantas' news doesn't improve.

Thumping great loss and cancels order for 35 Dreamliners. Oh well, at least that shortens the 8,000 jet backlog a fraction!

http://www.smh.com.au/business/earnings-season/qantas-cancels-jet-orders-as-it-posts-first-loss-20120823-24ngx.html

[Skol]

The 787 isn't doing what is was originally designed to do. The range is less and the delays never-ending, they're probably looking for an excuse to cancel it.

There's also been a recall for delamination.

[modandm]

The 787 isn't doing what is was originally designed to do. The range is less and the delays never-ending, they're probably looking for an excuse to cancel it.

There's also been a recall for delamination.

what garbage. The 787-9 (the one they cancelled) is shaping up very very well. By the time AIR get them it will have package C on spec engines too!
Even the -8 has been delivering on target fuel burn savings for japanese customers.

Recall delamination....? Since when - it's not in the media nor out among boeing stock analysts so I say please provide evidence.

[Skol]

what garbage. The 787-9 (the one they cancelled) is shaping up very very well. By the time AIR get them it will have package C on spec engines too!
Even the -8 has been delivering on target fuel burn savings for japanese customers.

Recall delamination....? Since when - it's not in the media nor out among boeing stock analysts so I say please provide evidence.

The 787-9 won't be available until 2016. The ones that Air NZ have on order won't have the new wing, they won't go as far as the 747-400 does now.
The 787 is a very flash, very expensive 767.


'Boeing again faces a manufacturing quality issue, requiring inspections and repairs of its 787 fleet.

Structural stiffeners were found to be improperly joined to the composite skin in the aft sections of the aircraft, causing parts of the aircraft's carbon fibre structure to delaminate, confirms the airframer.

"Boeing has found that incorrect shimming was performed on support structure on the aft fuselage on certain airplanes in our facility in Everett, [Washington]," said the airframer.

Flightglobal has confirmed there are at least three affected airframes, Airplanes 56, for All Nippon Airways, where the problem was first discovered, and Airplanes 57 and 58, the first two aircraft for Qatar Airways.

Boeing declined to say how many 787s have this issue, though sources indicated that there are "significantly more" than the three initially identified in the factory.'

Will that do Biggles?

[macduffy]

So QAN are really quite well placed with their old aircraft?

:D

[Skol]

So QAN are really quite well placed with their old aircraft?

:D

Quite probably, an airline I'm familiar with ostensibly paid $US10,000,000 for a very good used 747-400 not so long ago.

A new 787 will cost $US206,000,000.

You don't need to be Milton Friedman to start crunching numbers, passengers love the 747 and it comes with the added bonus of 4 engines.

I heard word of mouth that there's 46 787s lined up that need repairs for delamination.

[Skol]

tricha,

Can you give us an update on VAH and AIR profits, if you have a few minutes please.

[Skol]

tricha,

VAH looking pretty good, wanna take a punt on airlines? Many reporting good profits and load factors.

All is well.

[tricha]

tricha,

VAH looking pretty good, wanna take a punt on airlines? Many reporting good profits and load factors.

All is well.

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/icons/icon1.png
"I expect the US stock market to drop 20% from here, if the same applied to gold that would make it $1360.

Sounds about right."

That was a quick turn around ?

[Skol]

http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/images/icons/icon1.png
"I expect the US stock market to drop 20% from here, if the same applied to gold that would make it $1360.

Sounds about right."

That was a quick turn around ?

Gold's all over tricha, throw a bit of cash the airline way.

[Skol]

Dubai's Emirates airline says it posted a 104 per cent surge in net profits in the first six months of the current financial year thanks to rising passenger numbers.

"In the first half of the 2012-13 fiscal year, Emirates net profit is 1.7 billion dirhams ($USA448 million), up 104 per cent from 836 million dirhams," the carrier said in a statement


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/world-business/emirates-firsthalf-profit-up-104-20121113-298yo.html#ixzz2C2MlVrCe

[macduffy]

Qantas cuts ties with Tourism Australia.

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2012/11/28/Qantas_cuts_ties_with_Tourism_Australia_820896.htm l?cid=ZBP_NEWS_L_L1_Qantas_cuts_ties_with_Tourism_ Australia_281112

:ohmy:

[macduffy]

Singapore Airlines pilots asked to take unpaid leave.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10857590

[Skol]

Yeah, I saw that. The company I work for is hiring pilots, by the dozen. There's a worldwide shortage and it's getting worse by the month.

In addition the fleet is being shunted around to take advantage of huge demand to and from the USA.
-------------------------------

Industry Urges Study To Highlight Pilot Shortage

By Kerry Lynch kerry_lynch@aviationweek.com

December 18, 2012


As the first wave of age 65 pilot retirements begins this month, a coalition of industry, academic and government officials are pushing for an in-depth study to highlight what they fear is a looming pilot shortage.

The coalition – an informal group that has met periodically over the past 18 months – asked the Government Accountability Office (GAO) to conduct the study, saying, “The aviation industry is entering an era of unprecedented pilot staffing challenges as a result of a struggling economy, bankruptcies, mergers, increasing flight training costs, manufacturing declines and numerous new public laws and regulations.”

The organizations met with GAO late last month to discuss the need to look at the potential for a pilot shortage and ramifications to the industry. The organizations then followed with a formal pilot study proposal outlining all the factors that such a study should entail. Typically such study requests come directly from Congress, but GAO has the authority to initiate a study without such a request.

The coalition comprises a range of airline, general aviation, business aviation and academic representatives. But it also includes Flight Standards Director John Allen, who has made the potential pilot shortage one of his personal priorities.

Allen told Aviation Week last summer he believed that first they must determine that there is a potential crisis and that the issue should be studied. “We have to understand whether it will be a problem,” Allen had said, noting that the agency was sensitive to past claims of shortages that haven’t surfaced.

However, a number of factors are combining to suggest that the problem is looming this time, he said. Airlines are bracing for substantial retirements as the first wave of age 65 retirements begin. The military supply of trained pilots has slowed substantially. And new rules mandated by Congress for all Part 121 pilots to obtain a air transport pilot certificate are further exacerbating the potential shortage, industry officials believe. Boeing, a member of the coalition, has suggested that the industry will need about 4,000 new pilots each year.

In its proposal to GAO, the coalition notes that the industry is facing “unprecedented pilot attrition rates coupled with diminished pilot availability caused by a decline of new entrants into the profession and a dramatic reduction in the availability of military trained pilots that have been a primary source of airline pilots since World War II.”

Metrics are showing declines in nearly all sectors, from the number of commercial pilots, general aviation active pilots and new pilot starts. The number of new private pilots has dropped by 10,000 each in the past couple of years, the coalition says

. “As the airlines hire the few qualified pilots available, a lack of pilots would severely impact corporate and charter operations of general aviation,” the coalition says, adding, “With few pilots choosing to enter the field of aviation as a career, universities and flight training providers will see a continued drop in enrollment.” A University of North Dakota study has tracked the flight training declines, the groups say.

[Skol]

Might be some money to be made in VAH.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/no-shortage-of-suitors-jostling-for-virgins-attention-20130722-2qerm.html

[macduffy]

Might be some money to be made in VAH.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/no-shortage-of-suitors-jostling-for-virgins-attention-20130722-2qerm.html

Or maybe not.

http://www.sharecafe.com.au/sharecafe.asp?a=AV&ai=27144

[Skol]

A temporary aberration, look at the chart, good for trading.

[tricha]

A temporary aberration, look at the chart, good for trading.

With fuel going up, they will go down.


29 July 2013 Last updated at 07:30 GMT Share this pageEmailPrint
ShareFacebookTwitter
Ryanair profit hit by rising fuel costs


Ryanair said it still expected to meet expectations for full year profit
Continue reading the main story
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No-frills airline Ryanair has seen profits drop sharply due to the timing of Easter and rising fuel costs.


Profits after tax fell 21% to 78m euros ($103.5m; £67.3m) in the first quarter of the financial year, despite a 5% rise in revenues.


Ryanair said the drop was expected, and it still expected to meet expectations for full year profit.


Fuel costs grew by 6% in the period, the company said, and now account for 47% of total costs.


In addition, Easter fell earlier than usual this year, meaning profit from the period was included in Ryanair's fourth quarter results rather than the first quarter.


Conditions 'tough'
Chief executive Michael O'Leary said its outlook remained "cautious" for the full year.


"Market conditions are tough with recession, austerity, high fuel costs, and excessive government taxes (most recently in Belgium) impacting air travel demand and yields," he said.


Mr O'Leary added that yields on summer bookings had been "slightly weaker" recently due to the heatwave in Northern Europe, but said he still expected full year traffic to grow 3% to 81.5 million passengers.


In the first quarter, passenger traffic rose 3% to 23.2 million.


However, the sharpest growth area was in so-called ancillary revenues - derived from fees for reserved seating, priority boarding and credit card transactions - which jumped 25% in the period to 357m euros.


The company is forecasting net profits in the range of 570m to 600m euros for the full year.


In March, Ryanair placed an order with Boeing for 175 planes worth £10.3bn ($15.6bn) to be delivered between 2014 and 2018.


The deal will increase its fleet by a third to 400 planes.


In February, the European Commission blocked Ryanair's third attempt to take over rival Aer Lingus, in which Ryanair already has a 30% stake.


Mr O'Leary has now offered to sell the stake to any rival airline which manages to secure a greater than 50% stake in Aer Lingus.


The Commission fears a takeover would reduce competition to the detriment of consumers.

[Skol]

More BS from you tricha.
Airbus and Boeing combined have a 9000+ jet backlog. Let the good times roll!


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324564704578627551184539858.html

[tricha]

More BS from you tricha.
Airbus and Boeing combined have a 9000+ jet backlog. Let the good times roll!


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324564704578627551184539858.htmlft

probably because the old dinosaurs cos t to much to fly, unfortunately the new ones will soon follow in their footsteps as, the WELLs dry up.

[biker]

Have bought QAN at 121.5. At these levels I think they are a getting a bit under done.
Holding VAH for an eventual turn around, and AIR for a great annual result.
Trying hard to time the cycle

[Skol]

There's a rumour that AIRs future bookings are looking very good.

[biker]

Out of QAN some time ago at around 1.38 when the writing was on the wall.

Anyone else see value in VAH at these levels? May take a while but some risk/reward upside from here IMO. Could be a slow process but some committed major shareholders who have the long game in mind no doubt and always the possibility of a take out by one or all of the big 3.

Disc hold and adding at these levels around 37.5

[Skol]

I'm looking at picking up a few, sold for .45 a few months back, check out the chart, tends to move between .37/.45

[tricha]

Out of QAN some time ago at around 1.38 when the writing was on the wall.

Anyone else see value in VAH at these levels? May take a while but some risk/reward upside from here IMO. Could be a slow process but some committed major shareholders who have the long game in mind no doubt and always the possibility of a take out by one or all of the big 3.

Disc hold and adding at these levels around 37.5

A piece of history

Air New Zealand

State backed

Origin Pacific was competing out of Nelson. We got reasonable priced flights, Air New Zealand undercut them and drove them out of the market. Now we are getting screwed again thanks to Air New Zealand( State Backed)

Qantas is an Australian Icon, backed by the Australian govt.

A fair playing field? That's the million dollar question

[Huang Chung]

Enjoying a bit of Skol's jet setting lifestyle.

In Key West, Florida.

You're right about the planes being full Skol....LAX and MIA buzzing.

Saw on CNBC the other day that one of the US firms with a good track record of picks for the year ahead (and unfortunately I can't remember who it was!!) chose Copa Airlines from Panama as one of their stocks for 2014....so maybe one to research if you want to think outside the Qantas / Virgin box....

Hey Skol.....got to Maho Beach, at the end of the runway at St Martin. 'Rode the fence' as a United 737 took off. What a rush!! Had a drink at the Sunset Bar, and watched the arrivals slink in over the beach for a while. Only there for a short while whilst the cruise ship was in port, but would love to go back there for a week (or three).

[Skol]

HC,

A cruise, I'm jealous - enjoy.
This what you're talking about?

[Huang Chung]

Oh yeah mate. That's the view from the Sunset Bar & Grill. Beach was a bit more crowded when we were there. Biggest plane we saw land was an Air France A340.

A great day for a plane buff from Oz :-)

[Skol]

HC,
If you get to LA visit the Proud Bird, adjacent to RWY 25L at LAX.

http://www.theproudbird.com/proudbird/default.aspx

[Huang Chung]

Damn!

Wish I'd known about it on the way across. We stayed in the LA Hilton Airport hotel (with some limited airport views from our window), but the Proud Bird would have been good to see.

[Huang Chung]

Hey Skol.

Flew Virgin America from LA to Ft Lauderdale.

I kid you not, this was the inflight safety video!!!

http://www.virginamerica.com/safetyvideo

[skid]

Just goes to show--entertainment trumps everything in Disneyland...I mean USA

If in the unlikely event the plane should crash and burst into flames --those who can not dance will be shifted to the end of the cue!!:(

[Skol]

Damn!

Wish I'd known about it on the way across. We stayed in the LA Hilton Airport hotel (with some limited airport views from our window), but the Proud Bird would have been good to see.

A shame, 5 minute cab ride from the airport, you can watch them approach and touch down, while having a few beers. Great fun when there's lots of crosswind.

[Huang Chung]

An interesting article (and embedded links to other articles) on how bad conditions are for US airport workers.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/airport-worker-killed-job-children-left-family-article-1.1591586

[Huang Chung]

Some pretty blunt commentary from the Chief Operating Officer of REX on the current state of the Australian Aviation industry....

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/displayAnnouncement.do?display=pdf&idsId=01489783

[biker]

Some pretty blunt commentary from the Chief Operating Officer of REX on the current state of the Australian Aviation industry....

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/displayAnnouncement.do?display=pdf&idsId=01489783

Yes, and Australian aviation approaching the bottom of the cycle IMO

[biker]

Some very interesting articles and commentary in The Australian this weekend on Qantas and Virgin. Nothing I read indicates I should sell my Virgin shares. Given another year to 18 months sub 35 cents could be seen to have been a bit cheap.

Disc. Hold quite a few VAH so I'm biased.

[Skol]

I've still got a few VAH shares, looks like a bloodbath is on the cards at QF.

[tricha]

I've still got a few VAH shares, looks like a bloodbath is on the cards at QF.

I will get in 1st, air NZ is a state run monopoly. A cartel, where completion is wiped out. I saw it with origin pacific, wiped out by deceitful completion, backed by none other than the govt.
Now we the public is getting screwed.


The end of airlines predicted by no other than former Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon in July 2008

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-03-06/the-end-of-airlines-predicted-by-no-other-than-former-qantas-ceo-geoff-dixon-in-july-2008

[skid]

Must be nervous times for Boeing

[stoploss]

Must be nervous times for Boeing

a couple of issues here , how can a massive plane disappear and they don't know where to look. If I go cycling my free APP pings a GPS location every 5 seconds. Surely these planes could be doing the same to a satellite, therefore reducing the search area by thousands of kilometres. As for the passports being used, cancelled 2 years previously ...the mind boggles that all the computers customs etc use aren't linked to a central database to raise a flag ....

[Skol]

If it's terrorism it's strange that no one has claimed responsibility for it, but the Flight Data Recorder has a sonar transmitter which means it will be easily located provided someone can get within range of it.

[stoploss]

If it's terrorism it's strange that no one has claimed responsibility for it, but the Flight Data Recorder has a sonar transmitter which means it will be easily located provided someone can get within range of it.


Not so strange , If it is terrorism this could have been a dummy run ..... They don't claim it , as they are planning something bigger ...... If the passports are key best every airline start checking the lost and stolen database ahead. Until they find the wreckage and recorders I wouldn't be taking any risks .

[skid]

They are on an island in Hawaii right now, building shelter and watching for smoke monsters.

Boy,do they have a complicated life ahead of them

[skid]

a couple of issues here , how can a massive plane disappear and they don't know where to look. If I go cycling my free APP pings a GPS location every 5 seconds. Surely these planes could be doing the same to a satellite, therefore reducing the search area by thousands of kilometres. As for the passports being used, cancelled 2 years previously ...the mind boggles that all the computers customs etc use aren't linked to a central database to raise a flag ....

Yes,I thought they also had something similar that kept in almost constant contact(??)

[skid]

a couple of issues here , how can a massive plane disappear and they don't know where to look. If I go cycling my free APP pings a GPS location every 5 seconds. Surely these planes could be doing the same to a satellite, therefore reducing the search area by thousands of kilometres. As for the passports being used, cancelled 2 years previously ...the mind boggles that all the computers customs etc use aren't linked to a central database to raise a flag ....

Yes,I thought they also had something similar that kept in almost constant contact(??)

[skid]

I read some article saying that some of the passengers cell phones are still logged on to the net (it was a pretty ''out there'' article---but still...).................................Well,tha ts what I read...:eek2:

[Skol]

Yes,I thought they also had something similar that kept in almost constant contact(??)

Very strange the whole business, modern aircraft have datalink (ATC satellite comms)and ACARS, a system between its company and the aircraft, engine monitoring, a transponder to identify it, in the event anything untoward happens the aircraft automatically notifies the company. In the event of a colossal electrical failure there is still battery power for a short period.

[Daytr]

The latest I saw was that the aircraft had altered direction of course & was flying at very low altitude, as if they were trying to avoid radar? Not sure if that's possible in a passenger jet & maybe that's what they found at, i.e. that it couldn't be flown that low without a mishap.

[skid]

Apparently they had the type of transponder that is automatic which rules out pilot error in terms of the manual type

[Skol]

Apparently they had the type of transponder that is automatic which rules out pilot error in terms of the manual type

You can switch them off but to disable ACARS, generally you'd have to pull the circuit breaker.

[skid]

The latest I saw was that the aircraft had altered direction of course & was flying at very low altitude, as if they were trying to avoid radar? Not sure if that's possible in a passenger jet & maybe that's what they found at, i.e. that it couldn't be flown that low without a mishap.
I think that would point more to the pilots responding to something(like a system alert[that could have been faulty]) and getting so involved that they lose track of whats really happening-which is what happened on one of the other crashes

[skid]

The latest I saw was that the aircraft had altered direction of course & was flying at very low altitude, as if they were trying to avoid radar? Not sure if that's possible in a passenger jet & maybe that's what they found at, i.e. that it couldn't be flown that low without a mishap.
I think that would point more to the pilots responding to something(like a system alert[that could have been faulty]) and getting so involved that they lose track of whats really happening-which is what happened on one of the other crashes

[Skol]

A crash that is high impact leaves a trail of (floating) wreckage, probably a satellite/VHF beacon transmitting as well. Interesting though, the conspiracy theorists will be out in force, but the aircraft will be found.

[Daytr]

Yeah quite likely Skid, they could have been trying to return to Malaysia. Seems their positioning system was off an hour before the plane disappeared. Its just strange they couldn't communicate in some way to alert that there was a problem.


I think that would point more to the pilots responding to something(like a system alert[that could have been faulty]) and getting so involved that they lose track of whats really happening-which is what happened on one of the other crashes

[skid]

A crash that is high impact leaves a trail of (floating) wreckage, probably a satellite/VHF beacon transmitting as well. Interesting though, the conspiracy theorists will be out in force, but the aircraft will be found.

What sort of crash leaves little or nothing--mid air explosion or structural failure?
They say the gulf of Thailand is only something like 85mtrs deep so hopefully it will be found sooner rather than later.

[biker]

What sort of crash leaves little or nothing--mid air explosion or structural failure?
They say the gulf of Thailand is only something like 85mtrs deep so hopefully it will be found sooner rather than later.

Any sort of crash of a 777 anywhere, in any manner, must leave something. It will be there and it will be found.

[skid]

So now it looks like a political cock up is also injected into the mix--Apparently the military radar tracked it turning left and back tracking back over Malaysia and into a completely different body of water.
Rumor has it that the military was embarrassed by the fact that their security was so slack as to have not been alerted.
So they may have been searching in the wrong sea!

[biker]

Good to see VAH just firming a little bit and QAN showing further weakness. Would be nice to think investors are cycling out of QAN and into VAH (wishful thinking) and it would be even better if the traveling public we're doing the same!
Time will tell.

[Skol]

VAH up 4% today, increase in volume in the last couple of days as well. Air NZ seem pleased with their investment.

[biker]

Qantas has finally blinked in a vicious capacity battle with Virgin Australia that could result in the larger carrier reporting a record loss approaching $1 billion.
Qantas will freeze domestic capacity in the first three months of the financial year because of weak consumer confidence and a slowdown in the mining sector that have hit at a time when capacity has outstripped demand.
It marks the formal abandonment of a strategy of maintaining a line in the sand at 65 per cent domestic market share, which was meant to maximise profitability.

Alan Joyce: happy with 63 per cent.
In January, Qantas chief financial officer Gareth Evans said ''stepping back from the 65 per cent would effectively be waving the white flag''.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce had led a campaign seeking a debt guarantee from the federal government to level the playing field against foreign-backed Virgin, in a move that might have prolonged the capacity battle.
But Prime Minister Tony Abbott in February turned down the request, offering instead to push for foreign ownership restrictions on Qantas to be lifted, in a move that has yet to be approved by the Senate.
In a presentation to investors at the Macquarie conference in Sydney this month, Mr Joyce indicated the carrier's market share stance was softening.
He said the airline was comfortable with its current position of about 63 per cent and was more focused on maintaining frequency and network advantages that help attract and retain customers.
The airline on Wednesday told investors total domestic capacity growth, including Qantas, QantasLink and Jetstar, would be ''zero in each of the first three months of financial year 2015 compared with the prior corresponding period''.
But the statement left room for Qantas to cut capacity in the mainline division while adding it in Jetstar, if it chooses, in line with long-running trends.
Qantas provided the update to the market alongside weak April traffic statistics, with the timing linked to it pulling some flights and placing smaller aircraft on others for the July-to-September period.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-blinks-first-in-virgin-battle-with-domestic-capacity-freeze-20140521-38p18.html#ixzz32OJfh23c

[Skol]

VAH up 16% in the last couple of weeks.

[biker]

Over 30 million shares crossed today and the VWAP up almost 7%. That's quite large on both counts for VAH. One of the big 3 grabbing more?
Air NZ ( and notably Luxon), Singapore and Etihad all now on the board. Good things should come of this.
Disc. Hold quite a few so I'm biased

[Skol]

Yeah, I sold some today, but have plenty more.

[Huang Chung]

Oil price heading in the wrong direction for airlines.

[Skol]

Oil price heading in the wrong direction for airlines.

XAL, the NYSE Airline Index is up 50% in the last year. Pity poor tricha who's fixated on losing gold and oil.

[biker]

Off loaded some of my VAH over the last few days. Had far too many and actually taking some profits.
Not sure yet where from here. Have the feeling that the Tiger losses beat up by the media may be a bit over done. Time will tell.

[Skol]

Airline business on a roll.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11300878

[tricha]

Airline business on a roll.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11300878

on a roll all right, licenced to steal. Licenced by the govt, propped up by the govt to steal from the average Kiwi.
It's a sad situation. Profit goring! Completion elimination. Just like Dorkland airport.

a disgraceful monolopy!



unlike Oz who have completion,

29 August 2014 Last updated at 01:41 Share this pagePrint
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Virgin Australia trebles its full year losses


Last year, Singapore Airlines increased its stake in Virgin Australia to tap into the Australian market
Continue reading the main story
Aerospace and Defence


Malaysia Airlines expects more losses
Germanwings pilots set to strike
Qantas reports record annual loss
Ryanair to bid for Cyprus Airways
Virgin Australia Holdings has posted an after-tax loss of A$355.6m ($332.6m; £200.5m) for the full year ending in June.


The result is more than triple the firm's previous year's loss of A$98.1m.


The carrier blamed weak consumer sentiment, overcapacity in the market and carbon tax costs for the loss.


Virgin also said on Friday that it would sell a 35% stake of its frequent flyer program to a private equity firm, valuing the program at A$960m.


The carrier, which is Australia's second largest behind Qantas, said ongoing uncertainty around the economy had also contributed to its full year loss and that it would not provide a forecast for the following financial year.


Virgin's underlying loss for the year of A$211.7m was in line with market expectations.


Difficult environment
"The 2014 financial year has seen one of the most difficult operating environments in the history of Australian aviation," said Chief Executive Officer John Borghetti.


Virgin competes head to head with Qantas in Australia, which reported a net loss of A$2.8bn for the same period on Thursday.


It was the national flag carrier's biggest ever annual loss.


Like Qantas, Virgin also blamed its full-year losses on restructuring and redundancy costs, together with write-downs on the value of its international fleet.


Virgin's sale of its Velocity frequent flyer program would be used to help lower the firm's debt, but is subject to regulatory approval from the country's foreign investment review board.


The partial sale of the program, which has some four and a half million members, would also be used to help improve Virgin's cash position, the firm said.


"The timing of the sale is perfect for us," Mr Borghetti said at a news conference on Friday.


Virgin Australia shares rose slightly in morning trade in Australia on the news.


Air New Zealand, Etihad Airways and Singapore Airlines own stakes in Virgin Australia, which in turn has a 60% stake in Tiger Airways Australia.

[Skol]

The NYSE ARCA Airline Index is up 142% in the last 2 years tricha.

Beats the crap out of gold and oil as you wait for the great oil armagdedon along with Russell Norman and all the other green looneys.. lol

[tricha]

The NYSE ARCA Airline Index is up 142% in the last 2 years tricha.

Beats the crap out of gold and oil as you wait for the great oil armagdedon along with Russell Norman and all the other green looneys.. lol

Air NZ is a low life thief backed by the govt. shame on you.

[tricha]

Air NZ is a low life thief backed by the govt. shame on you.

The govt should be charged for running a cartel.

Fares fair? How flight costs compare

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315812

[Skol]

The govt should be charged for running a cartel.

Fares fair? How flight costs compare

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11315812

You don't like cartels but the totalitarian despotic dictatorship in Cuba's OK? Right?

[JBmurc]

VAH talking of cash-flow positive 17fy SP bumping on lows ....AUS free trade with HK ...VAH to capitalise>>>>

And with only a free float of 7% with the rest held by majors investors the sector(other airlines etc) and major buying will push it higher much easier >>>

in for 200k

skol would be laughing....

[Joshuatree]

Jeepers JB you're breaking new ground all over the place(inserts tractor and plough symbol:). Don't know nutting about VAH but it flashes me back to the 80's when i arrived at the Virgin Mega Record Store in London for the first time:t_up:. Curious at the change with your investment style and the source of this idea?. Im exposed enough in the sector with AIR, and in Australia PTB and AQZ as investments not short trades. I guess you're having fun with your property gain proceeds?

[JBmurc]

Yes I know nothing of the airline sector ...but the basics of business are all the same ....Cash-flows profits debt etc.... and after reading a few articles ..watching interview on CNBC with VAH CEO.and the current marco's on the sector just look at QAN AIR NZ etc ...I think is worth a trade looking for a few pips



8973

[Crypto Crude]

lol this brings back some good old memories with me old mate skol.......

where is mackdunk?

[percy]

I turned VAH's chart upside down.
Made no difference.?????????????

AQZ and PTB's look great.

[JBmurc]

I turned VAH's chart upside down.
Made no difference.?????????????

AQZ and PTB's look great.

Yeah ,,,,I should had included QAN chart alongside VAH ... then we would have seen both chart started much the same but unlike QAN back at 2007 highs VAH has gone even lower really the dog of the sector >>>> now I think this dog might just break off the leash >> and you would think some positive cash-flow and a good ann maybe joining the Star Alliance etc

[percy]

Yeah ,,,,I should had included QAN chart alongside VAH ... then we would have seen both chart started much the same but unlike QAN back at 2007 highs VAH has gone even lower really the dog of the sector >>>> now I think this dog might just break off the leash >> and you would think some positive cash-flow and a good ann maybe joining the Star Alliance etc

I can only hope you are right.

[Joshuatree]

Double bagger on AQZ today, PTB going well too and taking off too atm.
Other Aus airline stocks REX tracking up too and QAN crabbing up on a lower slope and VAH down since A/R.

[percy]

Article on AQZ in this week's "The Bull".Positive outlook.

[percy]

More for AQZ.
Google;
Dutch royal jet finds a new home in Brisbane.

[Joshuatree]

This is great too, much higher yields too with Tauck.
AQZ at a new high.
Tauck Australian Tourism Charter Contract Extension (https://hotcopper.com.au/threads/4459898/)

Also Fly My Skies are coming to Whangarei with much cheaper airfares then rip off artist AIR offers, may it spread through out the regions.

[percy]

AQZ's chart looks very positive with AQZ hitting $2.50 today.

[Joshuatree]

PTB a great upgrade today and still a sub $40 mill mkt cap!!
Download Document 131.58KB (https://hotcopper.com.au/documentembed?id=uOMxKKzFkiWRTLKhOROKAxjvSDYL4g%2B 7wRf%2Fv%2Bdt%2FbFiGug%3D)

[percy]

PTB a great upgrade today and still a sub $40 mill mkt cap!!
Download Document 131.58KB (https://hotcopper.com.au/documentembed?id=uOMxKKzFkiWRTLKhOROKAxjvSDYL4g%2B 7wRf%2Fv%2Bdt%2FbFiGug%3D)

Now that is a very pleasant surprise for you.

[percy]

19.9% of AQZ shares changed hands at $2.40 this morning/
Pause in trading at present.
On HC it is thought Qantas is the buyer.

[Joshuatree]

Back trading @ $2.53 a new high,and its official Qantas have bought 19.9% of AQZ. No approach has been made from Qantas atp. Results out next week

[Joshuatree]

Qantas want a bigger stake
Read more » (https://sendy.tarawera.co.nz/l/QQMrKma8h6MjbHw96gBRew/y1XrZehflgBn763Zeoos8928SQ/sKUzDdlHNTn892PsO892k0T5cQ)

[percy]

AQZ.
An incredible interim result out today.

[Joshuatree]

Busy day of announcements and results, some good things happening in my portfolio.I missed this , thanks .
Outlook is also very positive. I expect to see AQZ 's EBITDA multiples to start trading more in line with average market indicators from here on with the s/p increasing even more..

[Joshuatree]

PTB great result at upper end and great outlook and future for this company imo, rerating , enhanced by liquidity squeeze.
Download Document 199.59KB (https://hotcopper.com.au/documentembed?id=uOMxKKzFkiWRTLKhOROKAxjvSDYL4g25z BDyv%2Bdt%2FbFiGug%3D)

[Crypto Crude]

Most or the Worlds airlines bankrupt by May??
https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Most-Of-The-Worlds-Airlines-Could-Be-Bankrupt-By-May.html
:cool:
.^sc

[Crypto Crude]

65 million people employed by airlines directly or indirectly...
25million of those jobs about to go....
:cool:cc