Nat/act/nzf 2023

[Panda-NZ-]

It’ll drop faster over the coming year, you watch. (Under the single mandate no less).
Person A and Person B will be crediting the new government with the drop in inflation, Person Lefty will be hopping mad.

Unless unemployment goes up & wages (real terms) go down.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Unless unemployment goes up & wages (real terms) go down.

Labour have screwed the country (they are economic vandals) so that is a high possibility. You can be a great racing car driver but it’s a monumental task to keep the car on the track when Labour have cut the brakes and removed the steering wheel; the country won’t forgive them for what they have done.

[dobby41]

It’ll drop faster over the coming year, you watch. (Under the single mandate no less).
Person A and Person B will be crediting the new government with the drop in inflation, Person Lefty will be hopping mad.

You think like National - the illusion is what it is all about.
Forget about 'evidence-based' decisions!

[Balance]

You think like National - the illusion is what it is all about.
Forget about 'evidence-based' decisions!

Try 100,000 Kiwibuild homes.

Try ‘most transparent’ government ever.

Try light rail to start to Auckland airport within 3 years from 2017.

Try hundreds of millions of taxpayers’ monies wasted on frivolous projects (income insurance) and proposals (bike bridge to nowhere).

Evidence based?

You got it with Ardern, Hipkins and the Labour government in spades! 6 years of unadulterated ‘evidence based decision’ crap from them!

Cat got your tongue and your fingers, dobby41?

[Logen Ninefingers]

You think like National - the illusion is what it is all about.
Forget about 'evidence-based' decisions!

Nothing about 'an illusion' at all, it's 'an easy win'. Keep whingeing, it's what you do best.

[iceman]

Three cheers for taxpayer funded centralised socialist control of Sports organisations.

Haha. Quite to the contrary. The Government is going to withhold funding for them 😀

[Bjauck]

Haha. Quite to the contrary. The Government is going to withhold funding for them 
Tow the government line and the government gives you the taxpayers’ funds. Just like the last lot. Otherwise, struggle to survive.

I am not bashing the Bishop (Chris) as he has to sell what is a NZ First policy (and is now Coalition policy) on amateur sports. He is out of his comfort zone.

[iceman]

Tow the government line and the government gives you the taxpayers’ funds. Just like the last lot. Otherwise, struggle to survive.

I am not bashing the Bishop (Chris) as he has to sell what is a NZ First policy (and is now Coalition policy) on amateur sports. He is out of his comfort zone.

It was way overdue to stop men from competing in women's sports

[blackcap]

It was way overdue to stop men from competing in women's sports

Never a truer statement. The madness will end sometime soon. Ordinary people are fed up with the gender confusion illusion.

[Balance]

Never a truer statement. The madness will end sometime soon. Ordinary people are fed up with the gender confusion illusion.

Here’s how dumb certain woke & leftist politicians desperately courting votes have been about the transgender issue :

https://youtu.be/6OGe9RAmFWw?si=fPDvl2hRsbibq76e

Woke, leftist & clueless - a government which could not define what is a woman making gender policies which impacts on the wellbeing of all women.

[fungus pudding]

Tow the government line .................................................. ..

Where to, and what with?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Where to, and what with?

"Mr. Queeg, during the period when the Caine was towing targets, did you ever steam over your own tow line and cut it?"

[Bjauck]

It was way overdue to stop men from competing in women's sports
So NZ First/ The Coalition know better than each Sports association - and their members - what, if any, gender divisions are most appropriate and worthy of taxpayer money. A lovely bit of government social control.

[Bjauck]

Never a truer statement. The madness will end sometime soon. Ordinary people are fed up with the gender confusion illusion.
Who is an ordinary person? Sounds like a cast back to the claustrophobic 1950’s quest to be ordinary or regular - scared to be different. Nobody is ordinary.

[dobby41]

Cat got your tongue and your fingers, dobby41?

Nope - obviously I have a lot more happening in my life (like living it) than you.

This new Govt is starting out very non-transparent.
This subtly (and sneakily) changing of the RMA to remove Te Tiriti and replace it with the Treaty.

Seems that you are happy for the current govt to make decisions without evidence as well - sad.
Still, no one expects you to have a balanced view.

[iceman]

So NZ First/ The Coalition know better than each Sports association - and their members - what, if any, gender divisions are most appropriate and worthy of taxpayer money. A lovely bit of government social control.

The sports associations can do what they want. I wholeheartedly support the Government withholding funding for associations that let men compete with women in an unfair contest and I make no apologies for it.
Our young women that work hard for achieving success in their chosen sport, deserve a fair contest.

[Bjauck]

The sports associations can do what they want. I wholeheartedly support the Government withholding funding for associations that let men compete with women in an unfair contest and I make no apologies for it.
Our young women that work hard for achieving success in their chosen sport, deserve a fair contest.You should embrace Coalition state socialism. There is at least one aspect of society they want to try to make fairer then. At least it is not Labour-Green socialism?

[iceman]

You should embrace Coalition state socialism. There is at least one aspect of society they want to try to make fairer then. At least it is not Labour-Green socialism?

Weird. Not letting men compete against women in women's sport is socialism ? OK !

[Blue Skies]

So NZ First/ The Coalition know better than each Sports association - and their members - what, if any, gender divisions are most appropriate and worthy of taxpayer money. A lovely bit of government social control.


Ha, maybe its a cunning plan, to withhold funding from any Sports body which doesn't comply with our directive to repeal gender inclusion policies at grass roots level , & when they all ignore us we can redirect the sports funding to tax cuts for our landlord friends.


BTW it doesn't look like its going to happen, this govt is going backwards fast but not to the 19 century.
Even Australia has these gender inclusion policies, and this is just another of the Minor parties daft policies National has had to swallow to cobble together a coalition govt.
Chris Luxon already hosing down expectations of actually changing anything cause even he's not that conservative & repressed.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/301030897/sports-continue-with-transgender-inclusion-despite-coalition-agreement

[Balance]

Ha, I think its a cunning plan, to withhold funding from any Sports body which doesn't comply with our directive to repeal gender inclusion policies at grass roots level , & when they all ignore us we can redirect the sports funding for tax cuts for our landlord friends.

BTW it doesn't look like its going to happen, this govt is going backwards fast but not to the 19 century.
Even Australia has these gender inclusion policies, and this is just another of the Minor parties daft policies National has had to swallow to cobble together a coalition govt.
Chris Luxon already hosing down expectations of actually changing anything cause even he's not that conservative & repressed.



https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/women-in-sport/301030897/sports-continue-with-transgender-inclusion-despite-coalition-agreement

Rightly so.

Tax cuts for the hard working and the savers.

Take NZ back from the parasites, beneficiaries, criminals and losers bred by Labour & the Greenies.

Back to work for them. Their woke time is well & truly over.

[Panda-NZ-]

Rightly so.

Tax cuts for the hard working and the savers.

Take NZ back from the parasites, beneficiaries, criminals and losers bred by Labour & the Greenies.

Back to work for them. Their woke time is well & truly over.

Tax cuts for those who pop out a baby, 20 bucks for the rest.

[Balance]

Tax cuts for those who pop out a baby, 20 bucks for the rest.

Yawn - from panda-nz who wanted Ryman to do a share buyback using more debt when the company was already close to defaulting on its existing debts. Your insightfulness is as profound as that of a frog staring out of a pot slowing heating up to boiling point.

Big big yawn.

[Ggcc]

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/roy-morgan-nz-election-november-2023

Sorry if this has already been posted. Interesting as the media want to make you feel like everyone dislikes them.

[Bjauck]

Never a truer statement. The madness will end sometime soon. Ordinary people are fed up with the gender confusion illusion.
Are people who have had transgender reassignment not some of your “ordinary people”? Are those with cosmetic enhancements “ordinary”? Are those with heart valve replacements or stents “ordinary”? There are so many ways that we modify and fix the body and modify the way nature or genetics has taken its course.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Tax cuts for those who pop out a baby, 20 bucks for the rest.

The Left support ‘delivering for favoured races’; helping struggling middle class battlers is a no no. Especially if they are in a family unit. You lot disdainfully dismiss them as ‘bourgeoisie’ don’t you.
Funnelling money to no hopers is the Lefts modus operandi; decent folk can drop dead.

[Balance]

The Left support ‘delivering for favoured races’; helping struggling middle class battlers is a no no. Especially if they are in a family unit. You lot disdainfully dismiss them as ‘bourgeoisie’ don’t you.
Funnelling money to no hopers is the Lefts modus operandi; decent folk can drop dead.

Yup - Labour & Greens are all about breeding the no hopers - the parasites, the beneficiaries, the gangs and the losers - reliable & committed brainwashed voters for Labour.

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘James,
I heard someone
shoved a knife
right up
into the gap between
your white ribs
at Kealakekua Bay.
I’m gonna go there
make a big Makahiki luau
cook a white pig
feed it to the dogs
and F… YOU UP, B*TCH.’

- From the ‘poetry’ collection The Savage Coloniser, by Tusiata Avia

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘James,
I heard someone
shoved a knife
right up
into the gap between
your white ribs
at Kealakekua Bay.
I’m gonna go there
make a big Makahiki luau
cook a white pig
feed it to the dogs
and F… YOU UP, B*TCH.’

- From the ‘poetry’ collection The Savage Coloniser, by Tusiata Avia

This is the sort of ‘poetry’ that can bag you a tasty $60,000 pay day from Government arts funding body Creative New Zealand.

ACT have criticised the payment, saying as follows:
“In her recent book, The Savage Coloniser, Avia makes the case for violent, vigilante justice to be dealt out against individuals based on their whiteness. The book is about murdering James Cook, his descendants, and white people like him.”

ACT also asked the media to print an excerpt from the book. Click on the text where the excerpt is mentioned, and astonishingly it takes you to an unrelated article about comments made by Invercargill mayor Nobby Clark. If you wanted a crystal clear example of the disgusting Leftist media bias now prevailing in this country, then look no further.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/act-party-slams-creative-nz-over-tusiata-avia-60000-poetry-award/RY2AS7LQUBAJTGTNRK3OIOAZ5U/

[Balance]

‘James,
I heard someone
shoved a knife
right up
into the gap between
your white ribs
at Kealakekua Bay.
I’m gonna go there
make a big Makahiki luau
cook a white pig
feed it to the dogs
and F… YOU UP, B*TCH.’

- From the ‘poetry’ collection The Savage Coloniser, by Tusiata Avia

This is poetry?

Start working, woman instead of writing woke crap.

[Logen Ninefingers]

This is poetry?

Start working, woman instead of writing woke crap.

It reads as the murderous fantasy of a homicidal maniac. Just violent ravings. Definitely no poetry in sight, that’s for sure.
It’s the ultimate solution vis a vis decolonisation: ‘exterminate whitey’.
No wonder the Left are drooling over it.

[Balance]

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/roy-morgan-nz-election-november-2023

Sorry if this has already been posted. Interesting as the media want to make you feel like everyone dislikes them.

58% for the government vs 36% for the Coalition of leftist Losers.

A resounding rejection of the Labour/Greens/Maori Parti coalition of losers :

Support for National was virtually unchanged at 37.5%, down 0.6% points from the election, while support for ACT increased 3.9% points to 12.5% and support for NZ First was up 1.9% points to 8%.

In November support for the defeated Labour-Greens-Maori Party Parliamentary Opposition was at only 36%, down 5.6% points from the election.

Support for Labour dropped 5.9% points to 21% (the lowest ever recorded in a Roy Morgan Poll). However, support for the Greens increased 0.9% points to 12.5% while support for the Maori Party was down 0.6% points to 2.5%.

[Getty]

It reads as the murderous fantasy of a homicidal maniac. Just violent ravings. Definitely no poetry in sight, that’s for sure.
It’s the ultimate solution vis a vis decolonisation: ‘exterminate whitey’.
No wonder the Left are drooling over it.

Ah, but it's diverse, it's ethnic, it's creative heinous.

It's so arty farty it would give anyone the sh1ts!

[iceman]

58% for the government vs 36% for the Coalition of leftist Losers.

A resounding rejection of the Labour/Greens/Maori Parti coalition of losers :

Support for National was virtually unchanged at 37.5%, down 0.6% points from the election, while support for ACT increased 3.9% points to 12.5% and support for NZ First was up 1.9% points to 8%.

In November support for the defeated Labour-Greens-Maori Party Parliamentary Opposition was at only 36%, down 5.6% points from the election.

Support for Labour dropped 5.9% points to 21% (the lowest ever recorded in a Roy Morgan Poll). However, support for the Greens increased 0.9% points to 12.5% while support for the Maori Party was down 0.6% points to 2.5%.

This simply can not be correct. According to the Lefties on here and the so-called mainstream media, the Coalition Government has done it all wrong in the couple of weeks they have had their hand on the steering wheel. Supported by the minor minority of maori and union activists and their pathetic demonstrations.

Go Luxon, Seymour and Peters. You have NZ behind you. Leave the complaining losers behind and get on with fixing NZ

[Daytr]

There goes your tax cuts.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/12/21/three-waters-repeal-forces-councils-to-hike-rates-by-a-third/?fbclid=IwAR3JHNYUoLFgj0-y3q9F7Jcs-6LBWNdM0HjxsJSBOl-B6mCMh7O7jEv9sII

[tim23]

This simply can not be correct. According to the Lefties on here and the so-called mainstream media, the Coalition Government has done it all wrong in the couple of weeks they have had their hand on the steering wheel. Supported by the minor minority of maori and union activists and their pathetic demonstrations.

Go Luxon, Seymour and Peters. You have NZ behind you. Leave the complaining losers behind and get on with fixing NZ

Speak for yourself they don’t have me behind them.

[ynot]

Speak for yourself they don’t have me behind them.

O well, Stop the bus, Timbo's not behind the coalition , call a new election !

[Panda-NZ-]

There goes your tax cuts.
Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/12/21/three-waters-repeal-forces-councils-to-hike-rates-by-a-third/?fbclid=IwAR3JHNYUoLFgj0-y3q9F7Jcs-6LBWNdM0HjxsJSBOl-B6mCMh7O7jEv9sII

All because labour gave it a sh*t name.

Why not simply call it the Clean Water Act.

[Daytr]

All because labour gave it a sh*t name.

Why not simply call it the Clean Water Act.

Labour weren't listening unfortunately.
It was a very unpopular policy and yet everyone agrees something needs to be done.
They should have just centralized to a regional council level with local councils still owning the assets and an injection of funds from Central Government.

[Blue Skies]

Meri Kirihimete / Merry Christmas everyone.

On, Three Waters Reform / Affordable Water Reform, many councils proved unreliable & incapable of providing clean safe drinking water for their local populations.
It's no joke when the water coming out of your tap unknowingly is contaminated with E.coli & arsenic & nitrate.

[iceman]

Deleted deleted deleted

[Bjauck]

This simply can not be correct. According to the Lefties on here and the so-called mainstream media, the Coalition Government has done it all wrong in the couple of weeks they have had their hand on the steering wheel. Supported by the minor minority of maori and union activists and their pathetic demonstrations.

Go Luxon, Seymour and Peters. You have NZ behind you. Leave the complaining losers behind and get on with fixing NZI know National Party Voters who have complained about at least one Coalition policy. Of course we never voted for the Coalition platform, we voted for the individual parties. The NZ Westminster system has a Loyal Opposition. Complaining about the government’s actions is part of it! Vocalised and expressed Complaints celebrate our democratic freedom.

Also not all National MP’s are part of the government but they are whipped into voting for it in parliament. Sometimes opposition and complaints about government policy come from within a party, which helps form the government.

[dobby41]

This simply can not be correct.

Why can't it be?
They are driven by an ideology of undoing any trace of the previous policy - whether it makes sense or not. "Evidence-based decisions" be damned!

[Logen Ninefingers]

The Lefty whingeathon continues. Months after the people voted to boot Labour out, still the howling and braying goes on day in and day out.

[Panda-NZ-]

This will be a govt where the deputy PM's hold the power, an NZ first (pun intended).

Exhibit A: Winston being "acting PM" and taking the lead for the govt agenda.

The PM is a job with no duties being led around by the "deputy PM".

[tim23]

The Lefty whingeathon continues. Months after the people voted to boot Labour out, still the howling and braying goes on day in and day out.
Careful with an inane post like that you might get ignored by Ba Ba!

[ynot]

The Lefty whingeathon continues. Months after the people voted to boot Labour out, still the howling and braying goes on day in and day out.

No point wasting any energy on background static.

[davflaws]

The Lefty whingeathon continues. Months after the people voted to boot Labour out, still the howling and braying goes on day in and day out.

There has been more howling and braying and crowing about the results of the election and the media and the left and and and and ..... from you in particular than from any other poster.

You could reduce the volume of posts and raise the general tone of this forum by taking a rest.

[Logen Ninefingers]

There has been more howling and braying and crowing about the results of the election and the media and the left and and and and ..... from you in particular than from any other poster.

You could reduce the volume of posts and raise the general tone of this forum by taking a rest.

You’d love it if this place became a Lefty echo chamber.

[tim23]

You’d love it if this place became a Lefty echo chamber.

See davflaws post above- it’s time to take a break.

[Blue Skies]

Repeated comments I've been hearing around Christmas social gathering are Luxon panicked under time pressure in coalition negotiations & caved in to way too many demands from the minor parties.
Winston esp played him like a fiddle, ran rings around him in negotiations.

Luxon should have drawn a line in the sand at repealing Smokefree 2025, threatened Winston he would walk away from negotiations & force another election rather than agree to NZF demands to repeal it.
Shane Reti was asked to swallow a dead rat & may even be struck off for this as repealing Smokefree2025 will harm so many people, breaking the hipocratic oath.
He's doing his best to put as much distance between himself as Minister of Health and repealing it as he possible can, to save his own reputation & in private apologising for this appalling concession to Winston & NZF.
No matter what they do, cancelling Smokefree 2025 with the deliberate resulting thousands of avoidable deaths & huge future costs to the health system that will cause, will become Chris Luxon & Shane Reti as Minister of Health, future legacy, its so shocking & disgraceful that's what they will be remembered for.

Other comments were that due to so many reckless & irresponsible concessions to NZF & ACT they can't possibly fund them and tax cuts, hence Willis & Luxon now trying to shift responsibility & paint the economy in a far bleaker state than they supposedly realised.

And repealing so much legislation so quickly is going to leave massive holes which they will struggle to fill, esp while slashing the Public Service & contractors, leading to inevitable failure of this govt.
New govt's don't usually slash & burn because you can't just leave a vacuum & replacing legislation takes time.
And that's if Winston doesn't sabotage it first.
Hense Hipkins and Robertson deciding to stay around to rebuild Labour & pick up the pieces in 3 years time.

[tim23]

Repeated comments I've been hearing around Christmas social gathering are Luxon panicked under time pressure in coalition negotiations & caved in to way too many demands from the minor parties.
Winston esp played him like a fiddle, ran rings around him in negotiations.

Luxon should have drawn a line in the sand at repealing Smokefree 2025, threatened Winston he would walk away from negotiations & force another election rather than agree to NZF demands to repeal it.
Shane Reti was asked to swallow a dead rat & may even be struck off for this as repealing Smokefree2025 will harm so many people, breaking the hipocratic oath.
He's doing his best to put as much distance between himself as Minister of Health and repealing it as he possible can, to save his own reputation & in private apologising for this appalling concession to Winston & NZF.
No matter what they do, cancelling Smokefree 2025 with the deliberate resulting thousands of avoidable deaths & huge future costs to the health system that will cause, will become Chris Luxon & Shane Reti as Minister of Health, future legacy, its so shocking & disgraceful that's what they will be remembered for.

Other comments were that due to so many reckless & irresponsible concessions to NZF & ACT they can't possibly fund them and tax cuts, hence Willis & Luxon now trying to shift responsibility & paint the economy in a far bleaker state than they supposedly realised.

And repealing so much legislation so quickly is going to leave massive holes which they will struggle to fill, esp while slashing the Public Service & contractors, leading to inevitable failure of this govt.
New govt's don't usually slash & burn because you can't just leave a vacuum & replacing legislation takes time.
And that's if Winston doesn't sabotage it first.
Hense Hipkins and Robertson deciding to stay around to rebuild Labour & pick up the pieces in 3 years time.
Not a bad summary Blue Skies - you could have added that one can assume rents will head south with interest becoming tax deductible again?!

[ynot]

Not a bad summary Blue Skies - you could have added that one can assume rents will head south with interest becoming tax deductible again?!

Wishful thinking more like. The coalition will salvage whats left off this country from the brink of chaos.

[Getty]

Luxon should have drawn a line in the sand at repealing Smokefree 2025, threatened Winston he would walk away from negotiations & force another election rather than agree to NZF demands to repeal it.
Shane Reti was asked to swallow a dead rat & may even be struck off for this as repealing Smokefree2025 will harm so many people, breaking the hipocratic oath.
He's doing his best to put as much distance between himself as Minister of Health and repealing it as he possible can, to save his own reputation & in private apologising for this appalling concession to Winston & NZF.
No matter what they do, cancelling Smokefree 2025 with the deliberate resulting thousands of avoidable deaths & huge future costs to the health system that will cause, will become Chris Luxon & Shane Reti as Minister of Health, future legacy, its so shocking & disgraceful that's what they will be remembered .

So smokers continue to smoke with or without Smoke-free legislation, and it's all Dr Shane Reti's fault?

You make a big call there BS

Hopefully you and your supporters are not in breach of your hypocritical oaths!

[nztx]

So smokers continue to smoke with or without Smoke-free legislation, and it's all Dr Shane Reti's fault?

You make a big call there BS

Hopefully you and your supporters are not in breach of your hypocritical oaths!


Are the other lot regurgitating dead rats now ? ;)

Can't be many fresh ones left that they are able to catch ;)

[Blue Skies]

So smokers continue to smoke with or without Smoke-free legislation, and it's all Dr Shane Reti's fault?

You make a big call there BS

Hopefully you and your supporters are not in breach of your hypocritical oaths!



I can see from your post the Smokefree legislation is not something you're really interested in & taken the time to understand properly as you repeat the mistake its only aimed at current smokers.
But if you want to be informed, ask any doctor, Public Health expert or GP or medical professional, you would hear it is world leading health policy which is now being copied in the UK & seriously looked at in other countries.

So to repeat the basics there are several main components to it which will help current smoker quit (remembering 70% of smokers want to quit but fail because of the addiction)
AND, stop a new generation of new smokers starting. i.e. not just 1 but 2 completely different target groups.

1) the de-nicotinisation of tobacco removes the addiction for current smokers enabling them to quit & means no new smokers can ever become addicted.
2) the slashing of available outlets where tobacco is sold
3) banning sales of tobacco to anyone born after 2009 means a whole generation who are younger than 14 years today should never take up the habit.

On all the evidence this will prevent approx 8,000 deaths that will happen under the status quo.
There's also prevention of the countless heart operations, emphysema, amputations, partial strokes, carcinomas of the tongue & mouth etc to take into account and the future costs to our publicly funded health system & lost productivity estimated to be in the $billions.

So yes, by deliberately blocking & repealing this world leading Smokefree2025 legislation, the govt & Shane Reti are complicit in all this totally avoidable mortality & chronic illness.
Luxon should have stood firm & never agreed to Winston's demands and Reti should resign over this rather than let this happen under his watch as Health Minister.

[ynot]

I can see from your post the Smokefree legislation is not something you're really interested in & taken the time to understand properly as you repeat the mistake its only aimed at current smokers.
But if you want to be informed, ask any doctor, Public Health expert or GP or medical professional, you would hear it is world leading health policy which is now being copied in the UK & seriously looked at in other countries.

So to repeat the basics there are several main components to it which will help current smoker quit (remembering 70% of smokers want to quit but fail because of the addiction)
AND, stop a new generation of new smokers starting. i.e. not just 1 but 2 completely different target groups.

1) the de-nicotinisation of tobacco removes the addiction for current smokers enabling them to quit & means no new smokers can ever become addicted.
2) the slashing of available outlets where tobacco is sold
3) banning sales of tobacco to anyone born after 2009 means a whole generation who are younger than 14 years today should never take up the habit.

On all the evidence this will prevent approx 8,000 deaths that will happen under the status quo.
There's also prevention of the countless heart operations, emphysema, amputations, partial strokes, carcinomas of the tongue & mouth etc to take into account and the future costs to our publicly funded health system & lost productivity estimated to be in the $billions.

So yes, by deliberately blocking & repealing this world leading Smokefree2025 legislation, the govt & Shane Reti are complicit in all this totally avoidable mortality & chronic illness.
Luxon should have stood firm & never agreed to Winston's demands and Reti should resign over this rather than let this happen under his watch as Health Minister.

A few words come to mind, mountain mole hill emotive claptrap.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Thank goodness this is a free country, not some totalitarian Left wing hell hole where free speech and democracy have been ended.

[Logen Ninefingers]

So smokers continue to smoke with or without Smoke-free legislation, and it's all Dr Shane Reti's fault?

You make a big call there BS

Hopefully you and your supporters are not in breach of your hypocritical oaths!

Fitting that his initials are BS.

[dobby41]

Not a bad summary Blue Skies - you could have added that one can assume rents will head south with interest becoming tax deductible again?!


Wishful thinking more like. The coalition will salvage whats left off this country from the brink of chaos.

Ha ha - rents are never about costs, more about what the market will bear. Wait for the rationalisation of rents staying high and getting higher.

[davflaws]

A few words come to mind, mountain mole hill emotive claptrap.

8,000 bodies piled on your large suburban section (1000 sq m - quarter acre) is 750m high. Hardly a mountain, but a hell of a lot more than a molehill.

Words that come to my mind are callous, heartless, irresponsible, and stupid .

[Balance]

8,000 bodies piled on your large suburban section (1000 sq m - quarter acre) is 750m high. Hardly a mountain, but a hell of a lot more than a molehill.

Words that come to my mind are callous, heartless, irresponsible, and stupid .

Yawn.

Woke leftist BS.

How many NZers’ health and well-being have been destroyed by Labour’s clueless and incompetent management of the health system?

How many tens of thousands are suffering and dying from Ardern’s healthcare failures?

If the great unwashed are so insistent on poisoning their lungs, let them suffer.

https://otaihangasecondopinion.files.wordpress.com/2022/07/jeff-bell-cartoon-health-minister-stuff-7-august-2022.jpg

[Balance]

And the Leftists who cry huge crocodile tears about tobacco have been pushing for legalising cannabis.

https://norml.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/Jacinda-Ardern-Yes.png

[Bjauck]

The Lefty whingeathon continues. Months after the people voted to boot Labour out, still the howling and braying goes on day in and day out.
Pesky Westminster democracy, in which opposition has a fundamental part?

[tim23]

Wishful thinking more like. The coalition will salvage whats left off this country from the brink of chaos.
Maybe they might improve our lot but it would be helpful if they had some policies and vision- I haven’t seen anything apart from policy bonfire.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Pesky Westminster democracy, in which opposition has a fundamental part?

So you’re a Labour MP are you?

[Bjauck]

So you’re a Labour MP are you? Both parliamentary privilege and the ability to express opposition outside parliament were hard fought (against Government) aspects of NZ's inherited tradition.

Even Chris Bishop does not like the use of the rushed through Henry VIII clause in the RMA, which avoids debate when altering primary legislation. He defends by claiming Labour also had such clauses. So they are aiming to be no better than Labour in avoiding debate.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chris-bishop-admits-he-dislikes-henry-viii-clause-despite-putting-one-in-new-law-and-that-he-tweets-too-much/TILFS6IHJRE2LJ4MYPIE35VHVQ/

[Blue Skies]

And the Leftists who cry huge crocodile tears about tobacco have been pushing for legalising cannabis.

https://norml.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/Jacinda-Ardern-Yes.png


ACT's Deputy Leader Brooke van Veldon's personal view is not only cannabis but ALL drugs should be de-criminalised. There goes your theory/belief up in smoke!

And a number of National MP's privately supported the de-criminalisation of cannabis, just as a number of Labour MP's were privately against it.

[Getty]

Luxon should have stood firm & never agreed to Winston's demands and Reti should resign over this rather than let this happen under his watch as Health Minister.

Okay, so Dr Shane Reti resigns at your request BS.

Who do you nominate as his replacement?

You yourself have stated the repeal of Smoke-free is a coalition compromise, rather than a Minister of Health policy.

So will your nominee fare any better on that matter?

Is there any chance Shane Reti brings way more to the table than the previous Labour Minister of Health?

[dobby41]

Is there any chance Shane Reti brings way more to the table than the previous Labour Minister of Health?

Not really, unless you mean that he will agree to anything to keep his job.
No morals.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Both parliamentary privilege and the ability to express opposition outside parliament were hard fought (against Government) aspects of NZ's inherited tradition.

Even Chris Bishop does not like the use of the rushed through Henry VIII clause in the RMA, which avoids debate when altering primary legislation. He defends by claiming Labour also had such clauses. So they are aiming to be no better than Labour in avoiding debate.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chris-bishop-admits-he-dislikes-henry-viii-clause-despite-putting-one-in-new-law-and-that-he-tweets-too-much/TILFS6IHJRE2LJ4MYPIE35VHVQ/

The Left try to close down people who express opinions that they don’t like.

[tim23]

The Left try to close down people who express opinions that they don’t like.
Really? Clearly on this site you have your blinkers on - maybe you are a graduate of Sunshine TAFE.

[Balance]

ACT's Deputy Leader Brooke van Veldon's personal view is not only cannabis but ALL drugs should be de-criminalised. There goes your theory/belief up in smoke!

And a number of National MP's privately supported the de-criminalisation of cannabis, just as a number of Labour MP's were privately against it.

No crocodile tears from ACT if they want all drugs legal.

Plenty of crocodile tears from the woke leftists who ‘weep’ over tobacco but want cannabis legalised. Hypocrisy supremo.

Take the beam from your eye, BS before you see the speck in the eye of your opponents.

[Blue Skies]

No crocodile tears from ACT if they want all drugs legal.

Plenty of crocodile tears from the woke leftists who ‘weep’ over tobacco but want cannabis legalised. Hypocrisy supremo.

Take the beam from your eye, BS before you see the speck in the eye of your opponents.



I don't see this as an adversarial or partisan issue, its a health issue.
The facts are long term smoking of tobacco kills up to two thirds of its users, around 5,000 New Zealanders every year, that's 13 every day are dying from smoking related causes.
Smoking is a major cause of blindness - about 1,300 people each year in NZ have untreatable blindness caused by present or past smoking,
1 in 4 cancer deaths due to smoking,
40% of strokes & 40% of heart disease in people under 65 due to smoking
& smoking during pregnancy harms the unborn baby.

Alcohol causes more harm than meth, heroin, cocaine, LSD & ecstasy combined,
its estimated almost 20% of the police budget is spent on alcohol related problems,
half of all violent offences & one third of family violence offences are alcohol related,
between 600-800 people die each year from alcohol related causes,
between 18%-35% of presentations at our hospital ED's are caused by alcohol, rising to 60%-70% at weekends.
and again alcohol during pregnancy is hugely harmful to the baby
The harm costs us many $billions in health, crime, & lost productivity.

Neither smoking tobacco or alcohol both of which are addictive are criminal offences,
Yet possessing cannabis is a criminal offence.

The main risk from (long term use ) of cannabis is to a persons mental health.
De-criminalising it which is not the same as legalising it, would seem to be rational.
You can still exercise strict controls around its use with penalties & fines but its not a criminal offence, in the same way minor traffic offences are not criminal offences.
Personally I'm not in favour of legalising it due to the risk to young peoples mental health, but its no where near as harmful as either alcohol or tobacco.

[Bjauck]

With a caveat that more research is needed:



“Smoking marijuana clearly damages the human lung, and regular use leads to chronic bronchitis and can cause an immune-compromised person to be more susceptible to lung infections.
No one should be exposed to secondhand marijuana smoke.”
https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/health-effects/marijuana-and-lung-health#:~:text=Marijuana%20smokers%20tend%20to%20i nhale,exposure%20per%20breath%20to%20tar.&text=Secondhand%20marijuana%20smoke%20contains%20m any,similar%20amounts%20if%20not%20more.

[777]

Put here as worth a listen. Only two and a half minutes.Some here won't like what she says but the majority of positive posters here will admire her stance.

https://twitter.com/AuntyHeihei/status/1739750422422925454?s=20

[Balance]

Put here as worth a listen. Only two and a half minutes.Some here won't like what she says but the majority of positive posters here will admire her stance.

https://twitter.com/AuntyHeihei/status/1739750422422925454?s=20

She is bang on of course with her assessment of what the 'new Maori Party' TMP is all about - putting on stunts and behaving like clowns but where has been the benefits to Maoris from their stunts and clowning around?

As James Meager, part Maori (like the vast majority of 'Maoris' in NZ) and National MP said at his maiden speech - nobody owns Maori, the workers, the poor or the disadvantaged.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301022638/new-national-mp-gets-standing-ovation-following-maiden-speech

And for all his very well-articulated & universally highly praised efforts in showing how a part Maori, brought up by a solo mum in a state house, can make good despite the disadvantages and how Māoris should embrace him as a role model for every Maori kids out there, he is being decried by some as an Uncle Tom and a race traitor.

That's why Maoris will never progress as a people - the woke leftist politicians in Labour, Greens and TPM want to keep them permanently backward so they are reliant upon state handouts and are faithful voters for them.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/new-national-mp-james-meager-on-life-in-a-state-house-race-traitor-backlash.html

[dobby41]

The Left try to close down people who express opinions that they don’t like.

Maybe - it seems that the right just attack and call names.

[tim23]

Maybe - it seems that the right just attack and call names.
Quite right - at least one poster (far right as far as I can tell) seems to have refrained from using the term Maggot!

[Balance]

She is bang on of course with her assessment of what the 'new Maori Party' TMP is all about - putting on stunts and behaving like clowns but where has been the benefits to Maoris from their stunts and clowning around?

As James Meager, part Maori (like the vast majority of 'Maoris' in NZ) and National MP said at his maiden speech - nobody owns Maori, the workers, the poor or the disadvantaged.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301022638/new-national-mp-gets-standing-ovation-following-maiden-speech

And for all his very well-articulated & universally highly praised efforts in showing how a part Maori, brought up by a solo mum in a state house, can make good despite the disadvantages and how Māoris should embrace him as a role model for every Maori kids out there, he is being decried by some as an Uncle Tom and a race traitor.

That's why Maoris will never progress as a people - the woke leftist politicians in Labour, Greens and TPM want to keep them permanently backward so they are reliant upon state handouts and are faithful voters for them.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/new-national-mp-james-meager-on-life-in-a-state-house-race-traitor-backlash.html

The definitive narrative on what & who the Maori Party represents - definitely not Maori but only themselves.

https://plainsight.nz/no-mandate-to-speak-for-maori/

It seems we have come full circle, where those who claim to be oppressed are now trying to be the oppressors.

Where those who claim to despise colonisation, have used the system they hate, to line their own pockets with putea at the expense of the people they claim they would die for in the house.

Racism in NZ?

Absolutely. And Te Pāti Māori lead the way in perpetuating it.

[Balance]

He who laughs last, laughs the loudest.

The last laugh in 2023 belongs to :

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCI7H6EaEAAI6pq.jpg

[Logen Ninefingers]

Jessica Much-Maligned has quit the rotten media and jagged a plum corporate spin doctor role with banking monolith ANZ. Predictably the churlish anti-free speech NZ Herald won’t allow comments on their Facebook page on this story. The wheels are falling off, the hated Leftist media are on the skids.

[dobby41]

Jessica Much-Maligned has quit the rotten media and jagged a plum corporate spin doctor role with banking monolith ANZ. Predictably the churlish anti-free speech NZ Herald won’t allow comments on their Facebook page on this story. The wheels are falling off, the hated Leftist media are on the skids.

Act will sort it - they'll ban free speech unless they agree with what is being said.
'I’m expressing a personal truth': Award-winning poet Tusiata Avia responds to ACT MP's 'race baiting' claim
A bit of a threat - do as we say or funding gets cut

He said her poems were “racist rants” and the decision to give her the prize was “sick”.

He also said Creative NZ might soon lose some of its funding. “With a new Government looking to make spending cuts at low-value departments, Creative NZ is tempting fate.”

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133504711/im-expressing-a-personal-truth-awardwinning-poet-tusiata-avia-responds-to-act-mps-race-baiting-claim?cid=app-android

[iceman]

Act will sort it - they'll ban free speech unless they agree with what is being said.
'I’m expressing a personal truth': Award-winning poet Tusiata Avia responds to ACT MP's 'race baiting' claim
A bit of a threat - do as we say or funding gets cut


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133504711/im-expressing-a-personal-truth-awardwinning-poet-tusiata-avia-responds-to-act-mps-race-baiting-claim?cid=app-android

Her rant is most certainly racist and if it isn’t “hate speech”, then I have no idea what that term stands for.
She absolutely should not been given taxpayer funds to write such racist rants, nor should anybody else.
It beggars belief you support such nonsense. I can only imagine your response if somebody wrote similar filth about maori.

[BDL]

Act will sort it - they'll ban free speech unless they agree with what is being said.
'I’m expressing a personal truth': Award-winning poet Tusiata Avia responds to ACT MP's 'race baiting' claim
A bit of a threat - do as we say or funding gets cut


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133504711/im-expressing-a-personal-truth-awardwinning-poet-tusiata-avia-responds-to-act-mps-race-baiting-claim?cid=app-android

If her poem had been about killing brown people, would it have been publicly funded? I doubt that....

The left has tried to paint this as a free speech issue, (desperate dumbness by the left), instead, it is really about does it do the "public good", (ie. does it do the general public good?), as it involves public money.

Not likely.

[Balance]

If her poem had been about killing brown people, would it have been publicly funded? I doubt that....

The left has tried to paint this as a free speech issue, (desperate dumbness by the left), instead, it is really about does it do the "public good", (ie. does it do the general public good?), as it involves public money.

Not likely.

It was bonanza time for all manner of woke leftists under Labour - money was freely available and grants were made to any number of 'artists' or those professing to be in the creative arts (poets & rappers included).

Another example of how taxpayers' funds were simply thrown around like confetti :

"Carmel is Minster of Arts Culture and Heritage

Creative NZ (An organisation funded by her ministry) awarded her husband Daren Kamali $73,208 to do a tour about a wig made from his hair.

What he has basically done is cut off his own hair and decided to create an art form from it."

https://www.thecoconet.tv/coco-talanoa/coco-news/reviving-ulu-cavu-the-fijian-wig-making-custom/

https://www.thecoconet.tv/assets/resized/sm/upload/si/61/fj/mf/image002-0-850-0-0.jpg?k=180a10ae37

WTF? Really? That was under Ardern's watch - not me.

https://i0.wp.com/indiannewslink.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Labour-keeps-Chris-Hipkins-Chris-Hipkins-and-Carmel-Sepuloni.jpg?resize=791%2C419&ssl=1

[Blue Skies]

An interesting read, Dame Anne Salmond expressing opinions on the current state of politics, making some salient points including,

"Faced with these challenges, our leaders often seem adrift, grasping at strategies that are both ideological & self defeating - tax cuts, a small state & free markets that are supposed to deliver personal liberty, but in fact generate collapsing infrastructure, precarious employment & financial insecurity for all but small elites, or top down managerial bureaucracies that are supposed to deliver social services but sometimes seem self serving instead."

"....the new coalition Govt has laid out a 100 day manifesto that also exceeds its mandate on a range of ideological issues - flirting with climate denial & ....Treaty of Waitangi for example while decentralising health, water services, polytech education & repealing environmental legislation without providing workable alternatives ....."

"In the process of building a coalition under MMP, those at the political margins won concessions unwarranted by their level of electoral support......also places the new PM, a relatively inexperienced politician in a difficult position."

"When a global pandemic delivered the last Labour govt an absolute majority, however they exceeded their mandate on a range of issues....."




https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/12/30/anne-salmond-in-praise-of-the-middle-ground/

[BDL]

An interesting read, Dame Anne Salmond expressing opinions on the current state of politics, making some salient points including,

"Faced with these challenges, our leaders often seem adrift, grasping at strategies that are both ideological & self defeating - tax cuts, a small state & free markets that are supposed to deliver personal liberty, but in fact generate collapsing infrastructure, precarious employment & financial insecurity for all but small elites, or top down managerial bureaucracies that are supposed to deliver social services but sometimes seem self serving instead."

"....the new coalition Govt has laid out a 100 day manifesto that also exceeds its mandate on a range of ideological issues - flirting with climate denial & ....Treaty of Waitangi for example while decentralising health, water services, polytech education & repealing environmental legislation without providing workable alternatives ....."

"In the process of building a coalition under MMP, those at the political margins won concessions unwarranted by their level of electoral support......also places the new PM, a relatively inexperienced politician in a difficult position."

"When a global pandemic delivered the last Labour govt an absolute majority, however they exceeded their mandate on a range of issues....."




https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/12/30/anne-salmond-in-praise-of-the-middle-ground/

And that is why no one would take Dame Anne Salmond seriously (a bit like John Campbell).

Just another lefty with their nose out of joint.

NZ voted, the coalition is in government, this is what most people want.

Move on....

[Blue Skies]

And that is why no one would take Dame Anne Salmond seriously (a bit like John Campbell).

Just another lefty with their nose out of joint.

NZ voted, the coalition is in government, this is what most people want.





Move on....



That does seem a bit harsh given she did say she thought Labour exceeded their mandate on a range of issues....

And I certainly don't agree with all she says, but she isn't the first to say we have some dysfunctional issues & distortions which no govt seems interested in fixing as the dysfunction suits their voter bases.

The huge concessions Luxon made in coalition negotiations are out of all proportion to the electoral support of minor parties NZF & ACT. Luxon should never have agreed to some of those policies, some are absolutely ridiculous & internationally embarrassing for us as a country.

Remains to be seen how well this 3 headed coalition will work.
This isn't Winston's first rodeo apparently & the metaphor of a bucking, headstrong difficult to control horse trampling on convention seems highly appropriate.

[ynot]

That does seem a bit harsh given she did say she thought Labour exceeded their mandate on a range of issues....

And I certainly don't agree with all she says, but she isn't the first to say we have some dysfunctional issues & distortions which no govt seems interested in fixing as the dysfunction suits their voter bases.

The huge concessions Luxon made in coalition negotiations are out of all proportion to the electoral support of minor parties NZF & ACT. Luxon should never have agreed to some of those policies, some are absolutely ridiculous & internationally embarrassing for us as a country.

Remains to be seen how well this 3 headed coalition will work.
This isn't Winston's first rodeo apparently & the metaphor of a bucking, headstrong difficult to control horse trampling on convention seems highly appropriate.

You want to see internationally embarrassing, take a glance back a year or 6. Star studded lineup indeed.

[Balance]

It was bonanza time for all manner of woke leftists under Labour - money was freely available and grants were made to any number of 'artists' or those professing to be in the creative arts (poets & rappers included).

https://www.thecoconet.tv/assets/resized/sm/upload/si/61/fj/mf/image002-0-850-0-0.jpg?k=180a10ae37

WTF? Really? That was under Ardern's watch - not me.

https://i0.wp.com/indiannewslink.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Labour-keeps-Chris-Hipkins-Chris-Hipkins-and-Carmel-Sepuloni.jpg?resize=791%2C419&ssl=1

Another example of how taxpayers' funds were simply thrown around like confetti :

"Carmel is Minster of Arts Culture and Heritage

Creative NZ (An organisation funded by her ministry) awarded her husband Daren Kamali $73,208 to do a tour about a wig made from his hair.

What he has basically done is cut off his own hair and decided to create an art form from it."

https://www.thecoconet.tv/coco-talanoa/coco-news/reviving-ulu-cavu-the-fijian-wig-making-custom/





And more on how the government of Ardern, Hipkins and the Maori Cabal squandered taxpayers' funds - after dumbing down NZ's brown population to be dependent on the state (read Labour government) :

"$32 million measles vaccine rollout only reached a mere 7 per cent of the targeted number of people putting the cost at $1300 per person.

Labour was forced to destroy $8 million worth of expired measles vaccine due to their inability to manage vaccine demand. $3 million went towards ‘equity group' but only 28 kids in Tairawhiti vaccinated in those 2 years of the campaign."

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/12/samoan-measles-cartoon-not-the-first-time-garrick-tremain-has-been-published-punching-down/_jcr_content/par/image_792922802.dynimg.full.q75.jpg/v1575421499137/GARRICK-TREMAIN-pacific-island-jacinda.jpg

[Logen Ninefingers]

An interesting read, Dame Anne Salmond expressing opinions on the current state of politics, making some salient points including,

"Faced with these challenges, our leaders often seem adrift, grasping at strategies that are both ideological & self defeating - tax cuts, a small state & free markets that are supposed to deliver personal liberty, but in fact generate collapsing infrastructure, precarious employment & financial insecurity for all but small elites, or top down managerial bureaucracies that are supposed to deliver social services but sometimes seem self serving instead."

"....the new coalition Govt has laid out a 100 day manifesto that also exceeds its mandate on a range of ideological issues - flirting with climate denial & ....Treaty of Waitangi for example while decentralising health, water services, polytech education & repealing environmental legislation without providing workable alternatives ....."

"In the process of building a coalition under MMP, those at the political margins won concessions unwarranted by their level of electoral support......also places the new PM, a relatively inexperienced politician in a difficult position."

"When a global pandemic delivered the last Labour govt an absolute majority, however they exceeded their mandate on a range of issues....."




https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/12/30/anne-salmond-in-praise-of-the-middle-ground/

Nobody gives a hoot whether you “don’t agree with everything she says” or you do. While you might have a very high opinion of your own opinion, the reality is you are just another anonymous poster in an online forum. As to my own equally unworthy opinion, I can’t see any ‘salient points’ at all. The whinge about “flirting with climate denialism” is unjustified and downright stupid. NZ contributes 0.17% of global emissions and is literally powerless to curb the behaviour of the big polluters. China and India put their own national interests first, they are not deluded hand wringing ‘globalist Leftys’ like you and Salmon. China and India are ramping up the use of coal fired power stations, as they believe it is their own national interest to do so - and they don’t give a hoot what you, or Salmon, or Chris Luxon, or anyone else thinks about that, they will do what they will do. So if anyone is ‘denying climate change’ it is them.

[Daytr]

Nobody gives a hoot whether you “don’t agree with everything she says” or you do. While you might have a very high opinion of your own opinion, the reality is you are just another anonymous poster in an online forum. As to my own equally unworthy opinion, I can’t see any ‘salient points’ at all. The whinge about “flirting with climate denialism” is unjustified and downright stupid. NZ contributes 0.17% of global emissions and is literally powerless to curb the behaviour of the big polluters. China and India put their own national interests first, they are not deluded hand wringing ‘globalist Leftys’ like you and Salmon. China and India are ramping up the use of coal fired power stations, as they believe it is their own national interest to do so - and they don’t give a hoot what you, or Salmon, or Chris Luxon, or anyone else thinks about that, they will do what they will do. So if anyone is ‘denying climate change’ it is them.

At least you first acknowledge the irony of what you are about to post & then go on to ignore it.
You don't speak for everyone, so there is the high horse irony.

Dame Anne makes some very saliant points.

When are you going to deliver on your promise and stop posting?
Well, if that was the campaign and this is the reality at least you are displaying the consistency of the new Government.

[Logen Ninefingers]

At least you first acknowledge the irony of what you are about to post & then go on to ignore it.
You don't speak for everyone, so there is the high horse irony.

Dame Anne makes some very saliant points.

When are you going to deliver on your promise and stop posting?
Well, if that was the campaign and this is the reality at least you are displaying the consistency of the new Government.

There we go, the standard Left wing mindset of trying to silence opposition. We see it every day. Pure evil. The KGB thought the same way. I said I’d post a lot less, and that’s what I’m doing. You and red skies are able to post here all day, every day so shouldn’t throw stones at anyone.

[Daytr]

There we go, the standard Left wing mindset of trying to silence opposition. We see it every day. Pure evil. The KGB thought the same way. I said I’d post a lot less, and that’s what I’m doing. You and red skies are able to post here all day, every day so shouldn’t throw stones at anyone.

I'm not trying to silence anyone, most of what you write is schoolyard slagging off people that have different views to you, something that is easily ignored as childish rants.

Haven't you been one who has been saying all msm is left and should be shut down? Or something along those lines. If you are going to say stupid things, at least be consistent.

I am asking if you have any integrity at all?
Or did you lie when you promised on many occasions that you would stop posting after the election?

[dobby41]

The whinge about “flirting with climate denialism” is unjustified and downright stupid. .

In your "unworthy opinion".

[iceman]

In your "unworthy opinion".

John Campbell shown up for the political activist he is. A journalist he is not and certainly shouldn’t be employed by TVNZ https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2024/01/an-epic-display-of-dummy-spitting.html?m=1

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-the-liberal-v-conservative-anguish-over-the-direction-of-nz-politics/YPRYVQ3SG5ELLLSQAI6QDVEHJE/

A good round up above by Bryce Edwards of the current liberal vs conservative debate going on out there post the 2023 election which saw Labour decimated.

And Labour decimated is something which the liberal commentators & supporters are still anguishing over, and going through the “classic five stages of grief – denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance”.

Bryce Edwards' take on Anne Salmond : "Anthropologist Anne Salmond is probably in the “bargaining” stage, worrying about the polarising impetus of the new Government and New Zealand’s political system."

Very strange how Anne Salmond never once in the last 6 years wrote of the polarising impetus of the Ardern government which resulted in the worse racial & social divisiveness NZ has seen since the Muldoon era!

And if you want an idea of how wrong Salmond was in her assessment of Adern, read this :

"Last night, Jacinda Ardern and the Labour party won an historic victory. In a landslide, they’ve been given our trust to guide us on a dangerous and unpredictable journey. In these turbulent times, Aotearoa is lucky to have a leader who has vision, and the capacity to inspire collective goodwill, courage and determination." Unadulterated woke leftist BS. And she was rewarded by Ardern with a Damehood for that garbage!

[Balance]

And more woke leftist garbage written by Anne Salmond in 2017 (in preparation for her Damehood from Adern in 2020) :

https://newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/03/anne-salmond-its-the-end-of-an-era/

"These millennials are astute and free-thinking, with a refreshing optimism and generosity of spirit. Jacinda Ardern is one of this new breed of Kiwis. They make the neo-liberal die-hards seem moribund, stuck in an ideological morass."

Turned out that Ardern was a manipulative clueless and useless politician who quit when confronted with how NZers woke up to what a wretched leader and selfish politician she really is.

[Logen Ninefingers]

And more woke leftist garbage written by Anne Salmond in 2017 (in preparation for her Damehood from Adern in 2020) :

https://newsroom.co.nz/2017/09/03/anne-salmond-its-the-end-of-an-era/

"These millennials are astute and free-thinking, with a refreshing optimism and generosity of spirit. Jacinda Ardern is one of this new breed of Kiwis. They make the neo-liberal die-hards seem moribund, stuck in an ideological morass."

Turned out that Ardern was a manipulative clueless and useless politician who quit when confronted with how NZers woke up to what a wretched leader and selfish politician she really is.

Woke Leftist *elite* garbage. The troughing Leftist elite is a cabal of parasitic leeches cynically feeding off of capitalist society.

[Balance]

New government prioritising spending in the right area, protecting frontline healthcare workers and getting results. $6m to be spent - compare with over $100m spent on consultants & fat cats by Ardern, Hipkins and Labour for ???

Labour - all talk, spending taxpayers’ funds frivolously without a care for those who are on the frontline.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/506053/ed-reports-huge-drop-in-abuse-incidents

[Daytr]

The Left try to close down people who express opinions that they don’t like.


There we go, the standard Left wing mindset of trying to silence opposition. We see it every day. Pure evil. The KGB thought the same way. I said I’d post a lot less, and that’s what I’m doing. You and red skies are able to post here all day, every day so shouldn’t throw stones at anyone.


Woke Leftist *elite* garbage. The troughing Leftist elite is a cabal of parasitic leeches cynically feeding off of capitalist society.

Anyone see the hypocrisy & irony in regards these posts. 🤣

Ravings of an extremist's mindset.

[ynot]

Anyone see the hypocrisy & irony in regards these posts. 🤣

Ravings of an extremist's mindset.
Woke leftist garbage is rife and a problem globally. I guess if you can not see that you are up to your neck in it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Woke leftist garbage is rife and a problem globally. I guess if you can not see that you are up to your neck in it.

He’s donkey deep in it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Anyone see the hypocrisy & irony in regards these posts. 🤣

Ravings of an extremist's mindset.

You clearly don’t have a clue what irony and hypocrisy are. My posts were about the incessant silencing and cancelling that the Left habitually undertake. And you are cut from that same cloth. I don’t try to silence other posters like you do.

[Balance]

You clearly don’t have a clue what irony and hypocrisy are. My posts were about the incessant silencing and cancelling that the Left habitually undertake. And you are cut from that same cloth. I don’t try to silence other posters like you do.

That what the woke leftists do when they lose the argument or debate - they resort to silencing their protagonists.

[davflaws]

Anyone see the hypocrisy & irony in regards these posts. 藍

Ravings of an extremist's mindset.

Everyone has their worldview, and that always includes politics (either on a general values level, or a party political one, or both). This is a forum about politics.

Some people hold their political worldviews more strongly than others. The people posting here tend to have quite strongly held views.

Some people can argue for their worldviews and some can't or won't. Some people enjoy exchanging abuse and personal attacks, others don't and respond out of anger.

Some people genuinely want to engage about the topics discussed in the hope of learning something or changing minds, others just get off on conflict.

I'd like to be smart enuff to know what I'm responding to and enlightened enuff not to let anyone's posts 'get to me' but I'm not.

I try not to feed the trolls, but you should do what works for you

[Daytr]

You clearly don’t have a clue what irony and hypocrisy are. My posts were about the incessant silencing and cancelling that the Left habitually undertake. And you are cut from that same cloth. I don’t try to silence other posters like you do.


That what the woke leftists do when they lose the argument or debate - they resort to silencing their protagonists.

Well post something meaningful rather than just blanket abuse towards circa half the population.

Honestly you two most just post gibberish insults & childlike rants.

I wonder if any of your friends or family knew what you posted what they would think. It's just embarrassing.

[jonu]

Not sure where to post this, but this thread seemed as good a place as any.

Oh that we had more people like this wonderful woman.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/301031777/whaea-to-the-homeless-who-wasnt-afraid-to-give-judges-a-growling-retires-after-20-years

Something of a Mother Theresa type. Just get in at grass roots and get it done.

[kiora]

Thanks Jonu
The world needs more of them

[Balance]

Well post something meaningful rather than just blanket abuse towards circa half the population.

Honestly you two most just post gibberish insults & childlike rants.

I wonder if any of your friends or family knew what you posted what they would think. It's just embarrassing.

I am proud of what I post - the truth and facts about what an incompetent, racist and divisive spendthrift wasteful government led by a clueless and useless leader (Cindy) has taken NZ back years and it will take decades to repair the damage done by the QUITTER.

Meanwhile, we have the likes of you making ever conceivable excuse for the failures of Cindy & Chippy & the Labour governmebt.

12,000 new homes built by Labour, remember? Kiss my arse, Daytr.

[Balance]

Not sure where to post this, but this thread seemed as good a place as any.

Oh that we had more people like this wonderful woman.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/301031777/whaea-to-the-homeless-who-wasnt-afraid-to-give-judges-a-growling-retires-after-20-years

Something of a Mother Theresa type. Just get in at grass roots and get it done.

Truly an unsung hero.

But who gets the gongs?

Trevor Mallard and Clueless Cindy.

Sick and disgusting.

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/4/y/w/f/3/9/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.1420x800 .4z85lt.png/1704564171346.jpg?format=pjpg&optimize=medium

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/jacinda-ardern-won-t-voice-opinion-on-speaker-s-protest-tactics-as-opposition-accuses-trevor-mallard-of-embarrassing-behaviour/_jcr_content/par/image.dynimg.full.q75.jpg/v1644784893975/getty-newshub-ardern-mallard-1120.jpg

[Daytr]

I am proud of what I post - the truth and facts about what an incompetent, racist and divisive spendthrift wasteful government led by a clueless and useless leader (Cindy) has taken NZ back years and it will take decades to repair the damage done by the QUITTER.

Meanwhile, we have the likes of you making ever conceivable excuse for the failures of Cindy & Chippy & the Labour governmebt.

12,000 new homes built by Labour, remember? Kiss my arse, Daytr.

Well some set the bar very low.

Yes I remember and you are still harping on about terminology, not the real fact that Labour increased the stock of Government housing by over 12,000 and that's well over 12,000 more than National did with 50% more time.

[Balance]

Well some set the bar very low.

Yes I remember and you are still harping on about terminology, not the real fact that Labour increased the stock of Government housing by over 12,000 and that's well over 12,000 more than National did with 50% more time.

Your post & assertion was ‘12,000 new houses BUILT by Labour.’

Don’t try the BS and spin with us, loser.

We are not so easily hoodwinked - unlike you & you woke leftists by the likes of con artists like Ardern.

[Daytr]

Your post & assertion was ‘12,000 new houses BUILT by Labour.’

Don’t try the BS and spin with us, loser.

We are not so easily hoodwinked - unlike you & you woke leftists by the likes of con artists like Ardern.

So proud of yourself. 🤣🤣🤣

[dobby41]

Well some set the bar very low.


Certainly did - like Sir ShonKey

[westerly]

I am proud of what I post - the truth and facts about what an incompetent, racist and divisive spendthrift wasteful government led by a clueless and useless leader (Cindy) has taken NZ back years and it will take decades to repair the damage done by the QUITTER.

Meanwhile, we have the likes of you making ever conceivable excuse for the failures of Cindy & Chippy & the Labour governmebt.

12,000 new homes built by Labour, remember? Kiss my arse, Daytr.

Just another repetitive post from barmy Balance.

westerly

[dobby41]

Get your Ute now - maybe Luxon's wife will swap the Tesla?
14905

[Balance]

Lest we forget .....

Week before Cindy's wedding :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/566821f0-76b4-4376-9dbc-268849bc5dc7/Wedding+plans.jpg?format=500w

Most transparent government ever!

100,000 Kiwibuild homes!

[Balance]

Chris Trotter on how the leftists (especially the media commentators) decry the current "Hard-Right" government :

https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2024/01/chris-trotter-where-people-walk.html

WHAT PASSES for “Left” commentary these days insists that New Zealand is living under a “hard-right” government. Clearly, these commentators are unfamiliar with what constitutes a hard-right government. Equally clearly, they know next to nothing about New Zealand political history. Compared to the governments of Bill Massey, George Forbes, Sid Holland and Rob Muldoon, the coalition government of Christopher Luxon is a decidedly mild affair. The Left has mistaken a moderate and well-signalled political course correction for a reactionary reversal of progressive fortunes.

What the Left still doesn’t seem to have got its head around is that the defeated Labour Party is not the innocent victim of “red-necks” and “cookers” – reactionaries determined to drag New Zealand kicking and screaming back to the “half-gallon, quarter acre, Pavlova paradise” of the 1960s and 70s. Labour lost because the political magic first deserted Jacinda, and then, following her departure, transformed Chris Hipkins and his colleagues into a pretty hopeless bunch of politicians. What those Labour politicians celebrated as “progressive”, a great many voters considered either loopy, or dangerous, or a volatile mixture of the two.

For the moment, at least, New Zealanders seem happy to walk along National’s, Act’s, and NZ First’s footpaths. Not so much a “hard-right” government, as one committed to showing New Zealanders the right way home.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Dripkins has hit a new low as the Coalition surges -

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-soars-in-new-poll-as-voters-agree-country-is-on-track-chris-hipkins-crashes-record-low/TNS4GGJHIFDTZNGMKPQLNJOGJA/

‘Voters appear to have warmed to the Government over the summer break, with the first poll of the new year showing National breaking the 40 per cent threshold.

National hit 41 per cent in January, a massive jump from the 36.5 per cent it scored in the December poll.

Labour is static on 28.4 per cent. The Greens polled 9.5 per cent, down one point. Act rose from 6.3 per cent last month to 7.8 per cent in January. NZ First polled 5.6 per cent, down from 8.1 per cent last month. Te Pāti Māori fell to 3.6 per cent from 5 per cent.

Those scores would give National 51 seats, Act 10 seats, and NZ First seven seats.

Labour would have 36 seats, the Greens would have 12, and Te Pāti Māori would have six.

The poll has more bad news for Labour, with leader Chris Hipkins crashing 9 points as preferred prime minister, a new low for a Labour leader in this poll, opening up an 18-point gap with Christopher Luxon who was up one point to 31 per cent .’

[Panda-NZ-]

EV tax hikes on the way and more jobless thanks to the Luxon recession.

[Logen Ninefingers]

EV tax hikes on the way and more jobless thanks to the Luxon recession.

Sour grapes!

[iceman]

EV tax hikes on the way and more jobless thanks to the Luxon recession.

Yes shame on the Government to implement their clearly signalled election campaign policies.. Not something we're used to from the last 6 years.

[blackcap]

EV tax hikes on the way and more jobless thanks to the Luxon recession.

That's bloody great. About time too. Free loading scum EV drivers have had it good for too long. Time to make things fair again. Any subsidy for an EV is a subsidy for the rich.

[blackcap]

Duplicate...

[Logen Ninefingers]

That's bloody great. About time too. Free loading scum EV drivers have had it good for too long. Time to make things fair again. Any subsidy for an EV is a subsidy for the rich.

Entitled chardonnay socialists will just have to suck it up. Red panda is fuming!

[Balance]

Dripkins has hit a new low as the Coalition surges -

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-soars-in-new-poll-as-voters-agree-country-is-on-track-chris-hipkins-crashes-record-low/TNS4GGJHIFDTZNGMKPQLNJOGJA/

‘Voters appear to have warmed to the Government over the summer break, with the first poll of the new year showing National breaking the 40 per cent threshold.

National hit 41 per cent in January, a massive jump from the 36.5 per cent it scored in the December poll.

Labour is static on 28.4 per cent. The Greens polled 9.5 per cent, down one point. Act rose from 6.3 per cent last month to 7.8 per cent in January. NZ First polled 5.6 per cent, down from 8.1 per cent last month. Te Pāti Māori fell to 3.6 per cent from 5 per cent.

Those scores would give National 51 seats, Act 10 seats, and NZ First seven seats.

Labour would have 36 seats, the Greens would have 12, and Te Pāti Māori would have six.

The poll has more bad news for Labour, with leader Chris Hipkins crashing 9 points as preferred prime minister, a new low for a Labour leader in this poll, opening up an 18-point gap with Christopher Luxon who was up one point to 31 per cent .’

And business confidence has improved since Labour & Green were kicked out of government :

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/506816/less-businesses-expecting-economic-deterioration-nzier-survey

There are signs business confidence is on the rise, in the latest New Zealand Institute of Economic Research quarterly survey.

In the last quarter of 2023, a net 10 percent of firms said they expected a deterioration in general economic conditions over the coming months, compared to a net 49 percent of firms feeling the same way the quarter before.

The study also showed businesses were finding it significantly easier to find labour and that there are signs of an ease in inflationary pressures.

Business confidence in the retail sector has seen a significant shift too.

A net 44 percent of retailers expected an improvement in general economic conditions, compared to a net 66 percent of shop owners expecting a deterioration in the economic outlook in the previous quarter.

The change shows the retail sector turning from the most downbeat sector to the most optimistic.

[nztx]

Sour grapes!



No thought for the mega petrol tax increase Labour had planned to screw Kiwi's over wholesale either to fill a large pothole ;)

Cant be many pot holes around Nelson, or someone doesn't get out often ;)

[nztx]

That's bloody great. About time too. Free loading scum EV drivers have had it good for too long. Time to make things fair again. Any subsidy for an EV is a subsidy for the rich.


Feel good fuzzies for "How many Degrees James of the Rotten Green Brigade" most likely ;)

Fuel Tax increases Labout had planned would have shafted most of NZ to cover for the rest of the incompetence & large collection of potholes Labour amassed ;)


That would have properly f&$k*d the economy, blown the COL off the wall and propelled Kiwiland into the mother of all recessions with spiralling costs all over the place on top of the diving economy that Labour would have had on their hands looking forwards .. ;)

[Panda-NZ-]

This is a government of middle managers not CEOs.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350149124/government-managers-not-ceos

Now that the dog has caught the car.. now what?

[Balance]

This is a government of middle managers not CEOs.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350149124/government-managers-not-ceos

Now that the dog has caught the car.. now what?

Opinion of a woke leftist loser of a journo. Not worth a bucket of spit.

[iceman]

No thought for the mega petrol tax increase Labour had planned to screw Kiwi's over wholesale either to fill a large pothole ;)

Cant be many pot holes around Nelson, or someone doesn't get out often ;)

As a Nelsonian, I can confirm we have our fair share of potholes and road cones. So I lean in favour of your second explanation for Panda.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Lot’s of jumping up and down by Maori separatists tonight on the news. Leftists in the public service are leaking like crazy to Leftists in the mainstream media, but New Zealanders can see exactly what is going on.

[Balance]

Lot’s of jumping up and down by Maori separatists tonight on the news. Leftists in the public service are leaking like crazy to Leftists in the mainstream media, but New Zealanders can see exactly what is going on.

There is little doubt that NZ is heading into an extended period of racial strife and conflict which could last for many many years.

It is going to happen and NZ needs it to happen to either move forward or go backwards.

Have zero idea of how it will play out but one thing is for sure, hundreds of thousands of young NZers will be moving to Australia as the conflict and strife unfold.

So be it.

[davflaws]

Transferred from the Coronavirus thread on the "Off Market Discussions" Forum
Kia ora MT

I am happy to engage, but I would like to start by getting up to speed on exactly what the new Govt proposes. Please provide a link to the source of your points 1-3.

Without that knowledge, and based only on my current understanding, I don't think there are too many problems with #1, but of course there will be questions about exactly what "govern" covers.

#2 is another matter. Tino Rangatiratanga covers a great deal more than the right to retain freehold property, and the claim that ALL have it seems to me to conflate a status conferred in English law with a treaty obligation, and to downgrade the latter.

#3 is a real problem. We aren't. You and lotsa others believe we should be, but a substantial minority (I am among them) regard that statement as a 'dog whistle' standing for stripping Maori of their Treaty Rights,and clawing back the progress towards a more equal, fairer, and more just society that we have made in the last fifty years.



Thank you dav, and for my part I will make my best effort to restrain any inflammatory language that makes it harder to stay on point.

As this is the Covid thread, if the dialogue continues we are best to move it to a more suitable thread.

The principles that ACT want to put forward have been known for some time.

As it happens, a memo was leaked which confirms the Principles that the new government is planning to support through to a first reading (National have made no promises or commitments beyond that as they no doubt want to engage Maori and others a lot more. As they should, we should not go from one govt trying to ram through radical change in a short period to a new govt trying to do the same thing, just from the opposite angle).

The leaked memo is here:https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...ples-bill-memo (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/507090/government-confirms-leaked-document-was-a-ministry-treaty-principles-bill-memo)

Genuinely interested in your take, and the rationale behind it.

I must admit upfront that your initial response to all of us being equal under the law being something you think is a problem is of a concern to me (and dare I say it, the vast majoroty of NZers).

[Bjauck]

There is little doubt that NZ is heading into an extended period of racial strife and conflict which could last for many many years.

It is going to happen and NZ needs it to happen to either move forward or go backwards.

Have zero idea of how it will play out but one thing is for sure, hundreds of thousands of young NZers will be moving to Australia as the conflict and strife unfold.

So be it.
Treaty unsettlements won’t help, but more though will probably move to Australia for higher wages and cheaper costs of living.

[Balance]

Treaty unsettlements won’t help, but more though will probably move to Australia for higher wages and cheaper costs of living.

Have you actually talked to any of the NZers (especially the highly qualified) who decided in the last 6 years to migrate to Australia?

I have and amongst the doctors who migrated, one of the key reasons is that they do not want their children to grow up in a country where race determines almost everything - preferential entitlement to education, health, jobs, careers and future prospects. I just had a doctor friend & his young family on holiday from Queensland for lunch and he is so very very very happy he moved over there and escaped all the PC BS of cultural safety and te reo Maori requirements simply to do his job and to get ahead.

And where and what are the treaty unsettlements?

[dln]

one of the key reasons is that they do not want their children to grow up in a country where race determines almost everything - preferential entitlement to education, health, jobs, careers and future prospects.

Australia is a odd choice then, unless of course, you're on the 'right' side of it ....

[Balance]

Australia is an odd choice then, unless of course, you're on the 'right' side of it ....

The skilled, hard working and professionals are always on the right side. Always.

Meanwhile, the parasites, beneficiaries and losers bred by Labour grow ever larger in numbers and greed/appetite in Aotearoa, land of the ever darker black cloud.

Just look at Kainga Ora - more staff on ever higher pay to do less!

[Bjauck]

Have you actually talked to any of the NZers (especially the highly qualified) who decided in the last 6 years to migrate to Australia?

I have and amongst the doctors who migrated, one of the key reasons is that they do not want their children to grow up in a country where race determines almost everything - preferential entitlement to education, health, jobs, careers and future prospects. I just had a doctor friend & his young family on holiday from Queensland for lunch and he is so very very very happy he moved over there and escaped all the PC BS of cultural safety and te reo Maori requirements simply to do his job and to get ahead.
And where and what are the treaty unsettlements?Good luck to Luxon et al. if they can solve the staffing problem in public health, increase salaries for young doctors, and others, so they can afford to buy a home. All while solving Maori health issues, cutting taxes, and keeping the housing Ponzi scheme from imploding. Maybe then the reason for migration to OZ will be because people want to escape PC BS.

[Balance]

Good luck to Luxon et al. if they can solve the staffing problem in public health, increase salaries for young doctors, and others, so they can afford to buy a home. All while solving Maori health issues, cutting taxes, and keeping the housing Ponzi scheme from imploding. Maybe then the reason for migration to OZ will be because people want to escape PC BS.

Luxon & co wanted the job and one can but wish them well & hope they can heal the racial, social and economic discords sowed and cultivated by Ardern, Hipkins and the Labour government over the last 6 years.

Getting rid of the PC BS is but the first step and if they cannot do that, NZ is doomed to become the land of the ever dark black cloud.

The skilled, experienced and hard working will find Australia most welcoming as hundreds of thousands of NZers have already found.

[iceman]

Good luck to Luxon et al. if they can solve the staffing problem in public health, increase salaries for young doctors, and others, so they can afford to buy a home. All while solving Maori health issues, cutting taxes, and keeping the housing Ponzi scheme from imploding. Maybe then the reason for migration to OZ will be because people want to escape PC BS.

You seem to be totally opposed to changing tack and trying something different to the completely failed policies of the last few years, wherever you look. That includes better outcomes for Maori, as well as all other New Zealanders, who deserve better than what they have had from the last 6 years, which was just empty promises. I believe most of NZ is looking forward to seeing a different approach.

[Bjauck]

You seem to be totally opposed to changing tack and trying something different to the completely failed policies of the last few years, wherever you look. That includes better outcomes for Maori, as well as all other New Zealanders, who deserve better than what they have had from the last 6 years, which was just empty promises. I believe most of NZ is looking forward to seeing a different approach.
On the contrary. I did not like Labour’s prioritising (their/the Greens?) social agenda. There is a mammoth task ahead.

I hope criminality will be brought under control, medical waiting lists reduced for all, social deprivation alleviated, Treaty issues to be finally sorted, and that Housing will be decommoditised as an investment destination for household pension funds. I hope this is achievable within the current Coalition’s fiscal policies, while making NZ an attractive destination for companies to do business and to access capital.

I am sceptical that all that is achievable by the Coalition, especially with regards to The Treaty and housing. Labour would be no better. There is still a chance that National may introduces policies to free funds from our expensive residential land and boost investment in infrastructure and business. That would take more than one or two investment cycles to achieve though and a potentially hostile influential entitled sector of society. At least the National Coalition is still in early days.

[Balance]

“Big Bring It On” - message from Maori King Hui.

Indeed!

High time NZ sorts out race relations once and for all so that everyone knows what kind of country NZ is going to be in years to come.

Good point made by a migrant doctor at a function I attended recently - ‘If he knew that his children are going to be third class citizens in NZ when he migrated here 5 years ago, he would have chosen Australia. In any case, that option is wide open for him and his family but they need to move before he turns 45.’

Same applies to all the migrants brought in to replace the tens of thousands NZers departing - WTF should they come to NZ for them and their children to become third class citizens to work hard to serve and benefit the hundreds of thousands of parasites, beneficiaries and losers being bred in this country by the leftist woke political elites?

Let NZ revert back to what it was in the 1800s - what joy for the political elite who can then lord it over the peasants they have bred.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350152911/kiingitanga-hui-big-bring-it

[777]

JFK's quote...

“Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country”

This should have been the theme for the big Hui this weekend.

[Balance]

JFK's quote...

“Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country”

This should have been the theme for the big Hui this weekend.

Fat chance of that given the big fat cats gathered there - eying the ignorant multitude and preaching to them the politics of envy, greed and strife.

Anything but hard work and education.

[Bjauck]

JFK's quote...

“Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country”

This should have been the theme for the big Hui this weekend.First define “your country”. That is the crux.

[Balance]

First define “your country”. That is the crux.

Anyone who is born in NZ legally can rightly and fully assert that NZ is their country.

[Bjauck]

Anyone who is born in NZ legally can rightly and fully assert that NZ is their country. I was brought up in the 1970’s/80’s singing God Defend NZ in English solely in a quad with the NZ ensign. The school hall had a photo of the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh (from the 1950’s I would think). Is that “the country” of King Tuheitia? For some the best thing they could do for “their country” would be to seek radical reform for it.

[Balance]

I was brought up in the 1970’s/80’s singing God Defend NZ in English solely in a quad with the NZ ensign. The school hall had a photo of the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh (from the 1950’s I would think). Is that “the country” of King Tuheitia? For some the best thing they could for “their country” would be to seek radical reform for it.

As they should.

Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all.

[davflaws]

As they should.

Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all.

Balance is a troll. He is driven (I suspect) by some personal issues and I try not to feed him, but this post is inflammatory and dangerous nonsense.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD CIVIL WAR, and I would like other posters to join me in affirming that this sort of talk is stupid and makes it more likely that someone will be hurt or killed. I have reported it

[mistaTea]

Balance is a troll. He is driven (I suspect) by some personal issues and I try not to feed him, but this post is inflammatory and dangerous nonsense.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD CIVIL WAR, and I would like other posters to join me in affirming that this sort of talk is stupid and makes it more likely that someone will be hurt or killed. I have reported it

Behind you 100% on this.

Absolutely incredible and absurd that anyone would suggest that.

[777]

Balance is a troll. He is driven (I suspect) by some personal issues and I try not to feed him, but this post is inflammatory and dangerous nonsense.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD CIVIL WAR, and I would like other posters to join me in affirming that this sort of talk is stupid and makes it more likely that someone will be hurt or killed. I have reported it

Going a bit far in reporting it. He was hardly inciting a civil war. However your gang will probably follow suit and report as well.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Maori separatists threaten violence if they don’t get their way, and the Left don’t bat an eyelid….but now look at the hysterical Lefty pile-on on Balance for logically asserting that violence by separatists and their woke allies could lead to a civil war.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I’m going to report Willie Jackson, John Tamihere, Tuku Morgan, and Rawiri Waititi for the things they’ve been saying, things that make it more likely somebody could be hurt or killed.

[davflaws]

Going a bit far in reporting it. He was hardly inciting a civil war. However your gang will probably follow suit and report as well.

So front up 777. do you believe there is

"Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all."

If not - say so. Never mind who is in what gang.

[Logen Ninefingers]

So front up 777. do you believe there is

"Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all."

If not - say so. Never mind who is in what gang.

Threats of violence are coming from the separatist radicals! Now is your time to decry their hate filled agenda!

[davflaws]

I’m going to report Willie Jackson, John Tamihere, Tuku Morgan, and Rawiri Waititi for the things they’ve been saying, things that make it more likely somebody could be hurt or killed.

I don't know what they have been saying, but if they or anyone else on here says

"Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all."

I will report and condemn it. You should too.

Your "what aboutism" amounts to a deflection. Straight up - Do you want a civil war?

[davflaws]

Maori separatists threaten violence if they don’t get their way, and the Left don’t bat an eyelid….but now look at the hysterical Lefty pile-on on Balance for logically asserting that violence by separatists and their woke allies could lead to a civil war.

Balance did not logically assert that

"violence by separatists and their woke allies could lead to a civil war."

His post "Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all" was approving of the prospect.

I condemn it. You should too.

[davflaws]

Threats of violence are coming from the separatist radicals! Now is your time to decry their hate filled agenda!

Threats of violence and advocacy of civil war are totally unacceptable from any part of the political spectrum.

Can you say so simply and clearly without making left/right distinctions?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Balance did not logically assert that

"violence by separatists and their woke allies could lead to a civil war."

His post "Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all" was approving of the prospect.

I condemn it. You should too.

It was a blithe and tongue-in-cheek comment from Balance, but you choose to jump up and down about it. But what he says contains a kernel of truth: if separatists want a fight maybe they’ll eventually end up with one. Maori separatist radicals talk of “fighting in the streets” - perhaps you should take note, rather than say ‘I don’t know what they are saying’ as if you are some sort of ostrich.

[davflaws]

It was a blithe and tongue-in-cheek comment from Balance, but you choose to jump up and down about it. But what he says contains a kernel of truth: if separatists want a fight maybe they’ll eventually end up with one. Maori separatist radicals talk of “fighting in the streets” - perhaps you should take note, rather than say ‘I don’t know what they are saying’ as if you are some sort of ostrich.

You still provide no condemnation of a post approving of the prospect of a "good civil war". Instead, you defend Balance's stupid and inflammatory post. I condemn threats of violence from both the left and the right. You excuse Balance and condemn unspecified statements from "Maori separatist radicals".

If that makes me an ostrich, I guess that makes you a weasel.

[mistaTea]

You still provide no condemnation of a post approving of the prospect of a "good civil war". Instead, you defend Balance's stupid and inflammatory post. I condemn threats of violence from both the left and the right. You excuse Balance and condemn unspecified statements from "Maori separatist radicals".

If that makes me an ostrich, I guess that makes you a weasel.

Aye. I want proof of these “Māori separatist radicals” calling for a civil war or it didn’t happen.

[Ferg]

I’m not doing the work for you mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873).

Piece of genuine advice to help you: use Google and maybe word your question (and search) correctly based on what others actually said and posted.

[Balance]

I’m not doing the work for you mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873).

Piece of genuine advice to help you: use Google.

None as blind as those with eyes but will not see.

None as deaf as those with ears but will not hear.

None as dumb as those with mouth but will not speak.

MT is a prime example of one.

[Bjauck]

As they should.

Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all. Reform does not necessarily lead to civil war. NZ has inherited the Westminster system which has been very adaptable and accommodating over the centuries.

I presume you were being facetious in describing civil wars being good and sorting things out. Just within the English speaking world, The English civil war was devastating and did not sort things out as the country lurched from Regicide to Cromwell to restoration. Likewise the US civil war was devastating and it took at least another 100 years to see true emancipation (the headline cause of the war). Watch Ken Burns brilliant Civil War documentary to see how “good” that civil War was.

The Irish civil war was bloody too and ended in stalemate. Although perhaps a bit more successful in the long run in allowing the gradual shift to an Irish Republic.

[Bjauck]

You still provide no condemnation of a post approving of the prospect of a "good civil war". Instead, you defend Balance's stupid and inflammatory post. I condemn threats of violence from both the left and the right. You excuse Balance and condemn unspecified statements from "Maori separatist radicals".

If that makes me an ostrich, I guess that makes you a weasel. I don’t think Balance was going the full Trump with inciting insurrection! Maybe just an Ott comment in the heat of a debate?

[mistaTea]

I’m not doing the work for you mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873).

Piece of genuine advice to help you: use Google and maybe word your question (and search) correctly based on what others actually said and posted.

Oh no, no no! That simply will not do.

I am not wasting my time feeding google with nonsense queries about radicals in NZ wanting a civil war.

That is a very bold claim to make. And evidence should be included to support it.

It’s not my work to do as I am not making the claim. Mate.

[Ferg]

Calm down. Took me 2 minutes to find the relevant articles. Maybe do some research for once, mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873).

And you still haven't managed to get the "bold claim" part right yet. Maybe stick to what you know....genuine advice to help you.

[mistaTea]

Calm down. Took me 2 minutes to find the relevant articles. Maybe do some research for once, mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873).

And you still haven't managed to get the "bold claim" part right yet. Maybe stick to what you know....genuine advice to help you.

The reality is you are cross with me because you made an error in your analysis on OCA by making out that OCA residents pay OCA a 30% management fee AND have to fork out to refurb the unit if they decide to bail later.

I wasn’t having a crack at you. It was a simple enough error to make - I was just pointing out to those who are bullish on the stock that they don’t know everything either (otherwise they would have been the ones to correct you). They simply didn’t know either.

Since that exchange on OCA with SR you have gone from giving me glowing feedback to going out of your way to pick a fight over some nonsense about an alleged plot to have a civil war.

And don’t stoop to the others level by resorting to digging up old SKT posts every time you are mift with me.

Rather send me a PM to let me know what vexes you and if I have wrong you I will try to remedy it.

[Ferg]

No - I'm not cross at all and you still can't get your quotes right. It's hard to take anything you say seriously after spruiking Sky for God knows how long and then performing a 180 once you sold. Maybe stick to what you understand....wasn't that your advice to me? So you don't like it when your own words are used against you? That's your problem mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873), not mine. I had forgotten about that post but this is going to be fun.

[mistaTea]

No - I'm not cross at all and you still can't get your quotes right. It's hard to take anything you say seriously after spruiking Sky for God knows how long and then performing a 180 once you sold. Maybe stick to what you understand....wasn't that your advice to me? So you don't like it when your own words are used against you? That's your problem mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873), not mine. I had forgotten about that post but this is going to be fun.

wasn’t this your analysis that included the double dip?

https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?9856-OCA-Oceania-Group-retirement-villages&p=1036599&viewfull=1#post1036599

you have me positive feedback as recently as 05 Jan, so I am sure my critique has nothing to do with your current feral attacks!

[Balance]

No - I'm not cross at all and you still can't get your quotes right. It's hard to take anything you say seriously after spruiking Sky for God knows how long and then performing a 180 once you sold. Maybe stick to what you understand....wasn't that your advice to me? So you don't like it when your own words are used against you? That's your problem mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873), not mine. I had forgotten about that post but this is going to be fun.

Ouch!

Ouchy ouch!

Sky TV & MT - ouch!

[Ferg]

Rather than you and your mate lathering each other up in a frothy frenzy of delight over what you thought someone said, maybe understand the context of what was said by educating yourself on the matter.

Also....log....eye....speck...!

[davflaws]

I’m not doing the work for you mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873).

Piece of genuine advice to help you: use Google and maybe word your question (and search) correctly based on what others actually said and posted.

LNF claimed Maori Separatist Radicals talked of "Fighting in the Streets" and equated (or conflated) that with Balance's "Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all".

MT wanted proof of "Maori separatist radicals calling for civil war."

You didn't condemn Balance's stupid post. Instead, you resorted to the hackneyed "I'm not doing your work for you" ploy that has often been used on this thread. Since you hadn't previously posted on this particular topic, I don't know why you felt it necessary to assert that.

MT didn't get LNF's claim exactly right, but in normal rational discourse it is perfectly acceptable when someone makes a claim, to ask them to provide some reference so that it can be investigated.

[mistaTea]

Ok Ferg. Fair enough.

I shouldn’t have said civil war.

[davflaws]

Calm down. Took me 2 minutes to find the relevant articles. Maybe do some research for once, mate (https://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?4216-SKT-Sky-Network-Television-Limited&p=834873&viewfull=1#post834873).


So cite them. You know better than this. If you behaved in this cavalier fashion in your professional capacity, at the very least your reputation would suffer.

[Ferg]

If you behaved in this cavalier fashion in your professional capacity, at the very least your reputation would suffer.
Irrelevant and is that a threat? Why post this rubbish? Click the quote I gave and you will get the context.

[Balance]

So cite them. You know better than this. If you behaved in this cavalier fashion in your professional capacity, at the very least your reputation would suffer.

From davflaws whose indoctrination in all things Maori is so deep that he believes a NZer has no heritage or culture unless they are a Maori or adopt Maori culture.

That’s how credible any of his assertions are.

[Ferg]

Learn the context David.

You are over-reaching in your assertions the obviously tongue in cheek (because 'good' and 'civil war' are an oxymoron) comment "makes it more likely that someone will be hurt or killed". Wrong and hyperbolic given the fractional reach and influence of ST.

You admit to not knowing the background ("I don't know what they have been saying") and you condemn/report Balance without knowing the context and call upon others to do so. {BTW I condemn cancel culture as do many others, hence the reason I got involved - not that I have to tell you why I post and it's not your place to ask this in a public forum}. You try to deflect such calls for understanding context as 'whataboutism'. Wrong given that is the context.

You reach when you say Balance was "advocating" civil war - that was not my interpretation given I knew the context.

You admit "threats of violence" are abhorrent but don't criticise those that made the original threats of violence that lead to comments about 'civil war' in the media that were repeated here. Hypocritical because you refuse to understand the context of where the phrase 'civil war' arose in the context of the ToW discussions.

BTW we all abhor threats and acts of violence, of which civil war is a subset.

MT now gets it that nowhere here did anyone state the separatist radicals were calling for a civil war. We all make mistakes.....I admitted as such on OCA after being quizzed by Snoopy, and MT has now admitted as such on here. So why did I post here? I just wanted to play the old Uno reverse card trick on MT.....so who was I to refuse when he wasn't doing his own research? Speaking of not doing any original research here, you were provided the context and had the chance to understand this for yourself from others but you refuse to look and/or learn. It literally took me two minutes to find the articles using the correct quotes. Your turn. Do some research.

[FTG]

Balance is a troll.

Pot, Kettle, Black.

Per Google: A troll is Internet slang for a person who intentionally tries to instigate conflict, hostility, or arguments in an online social community...

The last 3 pages of this thread are yet another example of what the sanctimonious "Pot" seems to relish instigating, whilst posing as some sort of "Supreme Ruler/Moderator".

"30 seconds spray & then walk away", whilst smugly smirking.

There should be no surprises for why "The Pot" is a shoo-in entrant for the top 10 - "ST - Poster Ignored List"

[Ferg]

I'm glad others see what I see. I need to spread more reputation around.....


The last 3 pages of this thread

Top right -> Settings -> General Settings -> change this 'Number of Posts to Show Per Page' to a higher number - > then it's only 1 or 2 pages and not so bad..... :p

[Bjauck]

I'm glad others see what I see. I need to spread more reputation around.....



Top right -> Settings -> General Settings -> change this 'Number of Posts to Show Per Page' to a higher number - > then it's only 1 or 2 pages and not so bad..... :p
Well, it was worth scrolling through the bickering to get to that useful tip!

[davflaws]

Irrelevant and is that a threat? Why post this rubbish? Click the quote I gave and you will get the context.

Ya What? The link you provided goes to the Oceania Thread. The "relevant context" of Balance's post is what "Maori Separatist Radicals" allegedly threatened.

You keep claiming you have researched this information, but repeatedly refuse to provide the reference. That is not the way a rational discussion is conducted. I think tou know better.

[Ferg]

Ya What? The link you provided goes to the Oceania Thread.
Click the correct link this time and all will come clear. I put the same link up 3 times. Would you like a 4th?


The "relevant context" of Balance's post is what "Maori Separatist Radicals" allegedly threatened.
The 'context' for the post you quoted was my joshing with MT. Keep up.

[davflaws]

Learn the context David.

You are over-reaching in your assertions the obviously tongue in cheek (because 'good' and 'civil war' are an oxymoron) comment "makes it more likely that someone will be hurt or killed". Wrong and hyperbolic given the fractional reach and influence of ST.

If you will provide references to the context which you believe justifies Balance's post #1150 (which was posted in response to Bjauck's comment about Maori seeking radical reform)

"Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all."


We can continue this discussion, but until you do, we can't take it further.

You may believe (or pretend to believe) Balance was tongue in cheek. In view of his posting history (his posts in relation to threats of violence to Jacinda Adern for example), I don't.

You may believe (or pretend to believe) a post like that is acceptable in public discourse. I don't.

You may believe a post like that is harmless because ST has little reach. I don't




BTW we all abhor threats and acts of violence, of which civil war is a subset.


Good. A pity you didn't say so three pages earlier.

[davflaws]

Pot, Kettle, Black.

Per Google: A troll is Internet slang for a person who intentionally tries to instigate conflict, hostility, or arguments in an online social community...


Instigate? I didn't post

"Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all."


The last 3 pages of this thread are yet another example of what the sanctimonious "Pot" seems to relish instigating, whilst posing as some sort of "Supreme Ruler/Moderator".

You forgot to condemn political violence and reject any suggestion that a civil war would be good for NZ or 'sort out' anything 'once and for all.

If calling out Balance's nonsense makes me sanctimonious, I guess I'm sanctimonious. If failing to call it out makes you complicit in lowering the standard of public discourse and exacerbating social tension, then I guess you're complicit.




There should be no surprises for why "The Pot" is a shoo-in entrant for the top 10 - "ST - Poster Ignored List"
Didn't know there was one - where can I find it?

[davflaws]

Click the correct link this time and all will come clear. I put the same link up 3 times. Would you like a 4th?

Yes please.

[Bjauck]

If you will provide references to the context which you believe justifies Balance's post #1150 (which was posted in response to Bjauck's comment about Maori seeking radical reform)

"Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all."


We can continue this discussion, but until you do, we can't take it further.

You may believe (or pretend to believe) Balance was tongue in cheek. In view of his posting history (his posts in relation to threats of violence to Jacinda Adern for example), I don't.

You may believe (or pretend to believe) a post like that is acceptable in public discourse. I don't.

You may believe a post like that is harmless because ST has little reach. I don't




Good. A pity you didn't say so three pages earlier.
I understand your point about a pattern of posts. While an individual post may be flippant, many similar posts would be less likely to be so.

With respect to the abuse Ardern suffered, The new PM from the National Party, Luxon, has recognised that women in NZ politics suffer worse gendered abuse than men. So indeed they must somehow cope with that in addition to the other stresses all MPs face. All credit to Luxon for accepting that as a problem. Will that translate into greater support in parliament for Women?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-mps-arrive-in-christchurch-for-first-caucus-of-2024/RCJSRI2MHVC4FCNUPB5OG3LLMA/#:~:text=Prime%20Minister%20Christopher%20Luxon%20 says%20gendered%20abuse%20is%20much%20worse,her%20 work%20as%20an%20MP.

[Ferg]

Comprehension is still clearly an issue for someone....pity they still haven't got the correct context 3 pages ago (or less if you changed your settings).

But back on track....here is Act's guiding principles on equal rights for all especially around co-governance, which I'm sure everyone here would agree with:
https://www.act.org.nz/democracy

And Winston has made it clear that in his view co-governance is anti-democratic. Plenty of articles on Google. And their first 'pillar' is equal citizenship:
https://www.nzfirst.nz/principle

It's pretty hard to disagree with the concept that all people should be treated equally under the law.

However, a certain group of radicals have an issue with this and are allegedly threatening violence if they don't get their way with co-governance as reported on numerous MSM platforms. The media have stated this could lead to civil war. As pointed out by others: 'careful what you wish for'. IMO any such instigators should be charged with sedition to stop this nonsense.

[mistaTea]

Comprehension is still clearly an issue for someone....pity they still haven't got the correct context 3 pages ago (or less if you changed your settings).

But back on track....here is Act's guiding principles on equal rights for all especially around co-governance, which I'm sure everyone here would agree with:
https://www.act.org.nz/democracy

And Winston has made it clear that in his view co-governance is anti-democratic. Plenty of articles on Google. And their first 'pillar' is equal citizenship:
https://www.nzfirst.nz/principle

It's pretty hard to disagree with the concept that all people should be treated equally under the law.

However, a certain group of radicals have an issue with this and are allegedly threatening violence if they don't get their way with co-governance as reported on numerous MSM platforms. The media have stated this could lead to civil war. As pointed out by others: 'careful what you wish for'. IMO any such instigators should be charged with sedition to stop this nonsense.

I agree that whatever we do moving forward, it has to be under one Government where everyone is equal under the law. I cannot see a workable long term solution where one group has 'special rights' over the majority.

None of it matters if the long term 'solution' to help Maori is not going to be acceptable to the NZ public long term. It just makes things worse.

I forwarded the proposed treaty principles to davflaws, and will be interested to see his take (as to me, they seem hard to really argue with - but I am open to the idea that I could have a big blind spot somewhere and maybe I will learn something).

I relented and did a quick search Ferg. This article popped up:https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/501894/maori-will-go-to-war-over-act-s-treaty-referendum-labour-mps-warn

Sounds like there are some yahoos saying they will "go to war" over any referendum. Not exactly clear to me without any other context that it definitely means violence as we often talk about "going to war" over an issue figuratively. And I do note that Willie Jackson (someone I don't have a huge amount of time for) did make a point of saying he does not advocate for violence etc.

You must be looking at something different though? Can you share please? Otherwise I am doing my own search and potentially looking at something different to you. I need to see what you see.

And I assure you I will take a very dim view to anyone who is throwing around comments about violence. I don't care if you are Maori, white or any other damn thing.

[mistaTea]

I agree that whatever we do moving forward, it has to be under one Government where everyone is equal under the law. I cannot see a workable long term solution where one group has 'special rights' over the majority.

None of it matters if the long term 'solution' to help Maori is not going to be acceptable to the NZ public long term. It just makes things worse.

I forwarded the proposed treaty principles to davflaws, and will be interested to see his take (as to me, they seem hard to really argue with - but I am open to the idea that I could have a big blind spot somewhere and maybe I will learn something).

I relented and did a quick search Ferg. This article popped up:https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/501894/maori-will-go-to-war-over-act-s-treaty-referendum-labour-mps-warn

Sounds like there are some yahoos saying they will "go to war" over any referendum. Not exactly clear to me without any other context that it definitely means violence as we often talk about "going to war" over an issue figuratively. And I do note that Willie Jackson (someone I don't have a huge amount of time for) did make a point of saying he does not advocate for violence etc.

You must be looking at something different though? Can you share please? Otherwise I am doing my own search and potentially looking at something different to you. I need to see what you see.

And I assure you I will take a very dim view to anyone who is throwing around comments about violence. I don't care if you are Maori, white or any other damn thing.

Only thing I should add to this ...

Though the principles Seymour has drafted make a lot of sense to me in terms of being able to move forward...

There is an unsettled part of me that is becoming increasingly aware that this issue has been through the Privy Council and a series of other courts. And the Maori text interpretation has been established for some time now.

Though I have no tolerance for any kind of 'apartheid' solution, I am optimistic we can find a way forward that honours the spirit of the Treaty in a way that the public can accept (and therefore is an enduring solution).

But I would not like David Seymour to be able to just ram through his principles (just because I personally like them) and undo 80 years of legal precedent. Just like I did not want Ardern and co to be able to just ram through co-governance so quickly etc.

National have only supported this Bill through to Select Committe and I am confident that Luxon et all will be very careful on how to proceed after that.

Tyrrany of the majority will not be an enduring solution either. What would be the point of a referendum? It would be a foregone conclusion.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Just to be clear on the Leftist viewpoint:

No problem at all with Maori leaders & politicians threatening violence.

Totally up in arms over an anonymous poster on a backwater politics forum speaking of ‘civil war’ being the inevitable end point if separatists go so far as to become violent and anarchic.

Over there is a whole mountain range, but our resident Leftists can only see the molehill.

[davflaws]

Just to be clear on the Leftist viewpoint:

No problem at all with Maori leaders & politicians threatening violence.

Totally up in arms over an anonymous poster on a backwater politics forum speaking of ‘civil war’ being the inevitable end point if separatists go so far as to become violent and anarchic.

Over there is a whole mountain range, but our resident Leftists can only see the molehill.

A shame you forgot to condemn violence or the threat of it from any part of the political spectrum.

[Logen Ninefingers]

A shame you forgot to condemn violence or the threat of it from any part of the political spectrum.

You think ‘Balance’ is threatening to declare war on somebody? Why don’t you write to the NZ Herald about ‘credible threats of violence coming from the right’, and make sure you say that it was a throwaway comment by an anonymous poster on an internet forum.

[davflaws]

You think ‘Balance’ is threatening to declare war on somebody? Why don’t you write to the NZ Herald about ‘credible threats of violence coming from the right’, and make sure you say that it was a throwaway comment by an anonymous poster on an internet forum.

Perhaps you could write to the Herald yourself. You could quote Balance's post:-

"Nothing like a good civil war in NZ to sort it out once and for all"

And then you could tell the world how the left objected to this perfectly reasonable proposition and claimed it was stupid and harmful and unacceptable in public discourse.

While you are at it, you could provide a reference (which you have so far failed to do despite repeated requests) for your claim (#1154) that "Maori separatists threaten violence if they don’t get their way".

But I'm not holding my breath - a shame you keep forgetting to condemn the prospect of violence from anywhere on the political spectrum.

[mistaTea]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/507236/maori-development-minister-tama-potaka-ngaaruawaahia-hui-positive-and-constructive

Straight from the National MD Minister.

I think he articulates himself very well. There will be no referendum on Treaty Principles (thank God, as that almost certainly would envoke deep rage and benefit nobody in the long run).

But they do understand that conversation about principles and how they should manifest in a practical sense so that we are able to move forward more unified is needed.

And I commend him for that.

It is a complex issue and there are no 'easy answers' but I am keen to see what National are able to do. Some of the critics may even be pleasantly suprised as I think some of them think National are going to waltz in and implement a radical change.

[Entrep]

But they do understand that conversation about principles and how they should manifest in a practical sense so that we are able to move forward more unified is needed.

100%. Just sort it the f*ck out once and for all so everyone knows where they stand. Then we call all make our own decisions.

[Blue Skies]

So much misinformation & ignorance around co-governance which has been stoked by various political interests to drive agendas, hardly surprising there's people who mistakenly think it's about ownership of assets, or assets are being stolen or use terms like apartheid or separatists, that the laws won't apply to everyone equally or a whole group of people get special privileges based on ethnicity.

As ex National Minister Chris Findlayson says, co governance should have been named co-management & is what happens when you have different interests managing a resource, it's what happens in a partnership or joint- venture. It's about having a say in how something is managed.

People often mistakenly bring up the Maori Health Authority as an example of where co-governance, when it is just a government initiative to address health needs in an area of the community which is not working well under the present system. It's working & would be tragic if this govt shelves it based on political expediency which we're seeing a lot of from this 3 headed coalition govt.

What a nonsense & absolute waste of taxpayers money for the govt to have a review of the principals of the Treaty when Luxon says it will be blocked from going further.
Either engage with it or reject it but not this flagrant waste of parliamentary resources & taxpayers money when you've already made a decision for the outcome.

The Three Waters Reforms were a prime example of where misinformation driven by political agendas stoked fears of a takeover of ownership of our water by Maori.
In fact the bit which was so misunderstood was simply Iwi getting to have a say in conjunction with others in how it was managed, & it was even at a distance, not at the micro management level.
That could only have been good, most likely preventing the privatisation & for profit model being applied to such a fundamental essential resource for all.

Obviously there's some areas where co governance wouldn't work, foreign policy, national security etc but more understanding would reduce the level of fear & help lower the temperature on these issues which threaten to dominate this coming year.

[mistaTea]

100%. Just sort it the f*ck out once and for all so everyone knows where they stand. Then we call all make our own decisions.

One way or the other, I think successive governments need to do a better job informing NZers about what it all means.

It has been established in law for some time now that the original deal was a partnership, and the te reo version is what counts (Ferg, here is another 180 for ya! In the past I have been adamant that the English version should not be disregarded altogether. That was ignorant, and further investigation has allowed me to learn more about that point. See, I am wrong a lot more than I am right!).

However since 1840 there are numerous examples of how The Crown rode roughshot over Maori, disregarding their rights to the point of blatant land confiscations.

And so it is no coincidence that one of the partners continues to do poorly in pretty much all of the statistics.

So although the ACT Principles make a lot of sense from my "Pakeha" lens... I just have this sense of unease at the same time too. And growing empathy for how some Maori might feel (i.e. lack of trust for the new govt based on what they have read/heard given what has happened in the past).

And we probably are at the point that it is less about "debating" the principles as such - but more continuing the wider conversation to ratify what it all actually means in practice (including if there are any other rights that were inferred upon Maori when the deal was agreed to).

Ultimately, I just want to understand what exactly was agreed to and, where we have not honoured that, how can we rectify that in a way that is enduring.

If, for example, a co-governance model is a way forward (something I continue to grapple with) then there really needs to be clear communication and education on the matter. Just look what happened under Labour... at no point was it ever really explained properly. You couldn't really tell what it was and how/why it linked into TOW obligations. So a lot of people (myself included) did what we always do - just filled in the blanks with what we reckoned sounded 'about right'.

It is a terrible situation to have one partner impose their will on another partner as we have seen and it is no suprise that Maori continue to do so poorly (as a group, obviously there are also some very successful Maori). And it is a blight on the nation so long as that continues - I know that much for sure.

But what is the right/fair thing to do as an enduring solution? Thats what I want to know.

And if National supporting the ACT bit to a first reading enables the conversation so that I can be less nonplussed then I am optimistic.

[davflaws]

One way or the other, I think successive governments need to do a better job informing NZers about what it all means.

It has been established in law for some time now that the original deal was a partnership, and the te reo version is what counts (Ferg, here is another 180 for ya! In the past I have been adamant that the English version should not be disregarded altogether. That was ignorant, and further investigation has allowed me to learn more about that point. See, I am wrong a lot more than I am right!).

However since 1840 there are numerous examples of how The Crown rode roughshot over Maori, disregarding their rights to the point of blatant land confiscations.

And so it is no coincidence that one of the partners continues to do poorly in pretty much all of the statistics.

So although the ACT Principles make a lot of sense from my "Pakeha" lens... I just have this sense of unease at the same time too. And growing empathy for how some Maori might feel (i.e. lack of trust for the new govt based on what they have read/heard given what has happened in the past).

And we probably are at the point that it is less about "debating" the principles as such - but more continuing the wider conversation to ratify what it all actually means in practice (including if there are any other rights that were inferred upon Maori when the deal was agreed to).

Ultimately, I just want to understand what exactly was agreed to and, where we have not honoured that, how can we rectify that in a way that is enduring.

If, for example, a co-governance model is a way forward (something I continue to grapple with) then there really needs to be clear communication and education on the matter. Just look what happened under Labour... at no point was it ever really explained properly. You couldn't really tell what it was and how/why it linked into TOW obligations. So a lot of people (myself included) did what we always do - just filled in the blanks with what we reckoned sounded 'about right'.

It is a terrible situation to have one partner impose their will on another partner as we have seen and it is no suprise that Maori continue to do so poorly (as a group, obviously there are also some very successful Maori). And it is a blight on the nation so long as that continues - I know that much for sure.

But what is the right/fair thing to do as an enduring solution? Thats what I want to know.

And if National supporting the ACT bit to a first reading enables the conversation so that I can be less nonplussed then I am optimistic.

Who are you? What have you done with MT?

But seriously, you asked me for my take on the three main principles of the ACT policy in relation to TOW. So I went away and read the leaked paper and some MSM features and reports, and I seem to have arrived in pretty much the same place as you have.

We have a parliamentary democracy under MMP We currently have a coalition and part of ACT's price is to debate a bill. ACT represents the feelings and beliefs of a significant number of New Zeallanders, and it will at very least allow the coalition to function.

Perhaps the debate will shed more light than heat, but I doubt it. I doubt that anything will be sorted out once and for all.

I am afraid the TOW is likely to remain a 'site of struggle' for longer than any of our lifetimes. We will continue to strongly disagree about:-

what it means to who, and
what rights it confers on who, and
who did what to who, and
who hasn't paid and
how would we know ?

Fortunately, we have a legal system that provides an orderly, rational, and dispassionate process by which these struggles can proceed and individual issues be resolved.

I really appreciate your posts.

[dobby41]

Just to be clear on the Leftist viewpoint:

Just to be clear on the Rightist viewpoint: it is OK to break a contract if you have the power and will to do so. Might is right.

[davflaws]

So much misinformation & ignorance around co-governance which has been stoked by various political interests to drive agendas, hardly surprising there's people who mistakenly think it's about ownership of assets, or assets are being stolen or use terms like apartheid or separatists, that the laws won't apply to everyone equally or a whole group of people get special privileges based on ethnicity.

As ex National Minister Chris Findlayson says, co governance should have been named co-management & is what happens when you have different interests managing a resource, it's what happens in a partnership or joint- venture. It's about having a say in how something is managed.

People often mistakenly bring up the Maori Health Authority as an example of where co-governance, when it is just a government initiative to address health needs in an area of the community which is not working well under the present system. It's working & would be tragic if this govt shelves it based on political expediency which we're seeing a lot of from this 3 headed coalition govt.

What a nonsense & absolute waste of taxpayers money for the govt to have a review of the principals of the Treaty when Luxon says it will be blocked from going further.
Either engage with it or reject it but not this flagrant waste of parliamentary resources & taxpayers money when you've already made a decision for the outcome.

The Three Waters Reforms were a prime example of where misinformation driven by political agendas stoked fears of a takeover of ownership of our water by Maori.
In fact the bit which was so misunderstood was simply Iwi getting to have a say in conjunction with others in how it was managed, & it was even at a distance, not at the micro management level.
That could only have been good, most likely preventing the privatisation & for profit model being applied to such a fundamental essential resource for all.

Obviously there's some areas where co governance wouldn't work, foreign policy, national security etc but more understanding would reduce the level of fear & help lower the temperature on these issues which threaten to dominate this coming year.

Brilliant post!

[dobby41]

Interestingly, Luxon seems to wearing the flack for an Act policy that Luxon says won't get past the committee stage.
Seems he got sucked into something he didn't realise the enormity of.

14916

[Logen Ninefingers]

Just to be clear on the Rightist viewpoint: it is OK to break a contract if you have the power and will to do so. Might is right.

How did somebody 'break a contract'?

[Logen Ninefingers]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/507236/maori-development-minister-tama-potaka-ngaaruawaahia-hui-positive-and-constructive

Straight from the National MD Minister.

I think he articulates himself very well. There will be no referendum on Treaty Principles (thank God, as that almost certainly would envoke deep rage and benefit nobody in the long run).

But they do understand that conversation about principles and how they should manifest in a practical sense so that we are able to move forward more unified is needed.

And I commend him for that.

It is a complex issue and there are no 'easy answers' but I am keen to see what National are able to do. Some of the critics may even be pleasantly suprised as I think some of them think National are going to waltz in and implement a radical change.

There will be no referendum on Treaty Principles

You have a crystal ball?

[Logen Ninefingers]

According to Sir Apirana Ngata, it was some Maori Iwi that 'broke the contract':

https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-NgaTrea-t1-g1-t1.html

CONFISCATED LANDS
In conclusion I would just like to say a word about the lands that were confiscated by past Governments. Some have said that these confiscations were wrong and that they contravened the articles of the Treaty of Waitangi.

The Government placed in the hands of the Queen of England, the sovereignty and the authority to make laws. Some sections of the Maori people violated that authority. War arose from this and blood was spilled. The law came into operation and land was taken in payment. This it self is a Maori custom—revenge, plunder to avenge a wrong. It was their own chiefs who ceded that right to the Queen. The confiscations cannot therefore be objected to in the light of the Treaty.

[Logen Ninefingers]

According to some Maori Iwi, it was other Maori Iwi that 'broke the contract':

'Kūpapa (also called Queenites, from Queen Victoria, loyalists and the friendly natives) were Māori who fought on the British side in the New Zealand Wars of the 19th century.

At one end of the scale were kūpapa groups who had whole-hearted support for the British. These included the largest tribe in New Zealand Ngāpuhi, (estimated by demographer Ian Pool to have 40% of all Maori people in 1840) who held a meeting under their chief Tāmati Wāka Nene, in the Hokianga in 1863 to back the government in the war against the Waikato "rebels". Waka Nene, who was a close supporter of governor Grey, offered the services of Ngāpuhi warriors, which Grey declined. It also included the bulk of the Arawa, from Rotorua and Bay of Plenty, who had become estranged from their Māori neighbours and sought an alliance with the government to survive in isolation. Others who were deeply committed were bands of warriors affiliated with chiefs such as Ropata Wahawaha of Ngāti Porou and Te Keepa Te Rangihiwinui of Wanganui whose power in the tribe had grown because of their kūpapa activities.

A second category included groups who supported the British cause for a limited reason of their own—either to protect their economic activities with British settlers or to gain an advantage over local rivals. Belich suggests kūpapa involvement in the Battle of Moutoa on May 14, 1864, thwarting a Pai Mārire raid on Wanganui, was motivated by their desire to protect their valuable commercial dealings at the settlement.

A third category of kūpapa gave superficial support to the British, accompanying colonial expeditions but declining to do much fighting. Some in this category joined simply for the pay—Wanganui warriors who joined the British to battle Tītokowaru during hostilities in 1868-9 received four shillings a day.

[jonu]

Just to be clear on the Rightist viewpoint: it is OK to break a contract if you have the power and will to do so. Might is right.

Rightist viewpoint? From my experience, historically, Maori are all for the "might is right" position. Indiscretions committed by Maori were about "conquest". The difference, as they see it, was that the Treaty wasn't about conquest but by mutual agreement. Mutual agreement that according to modern Maori elites never existed due to the Crown thinking Maori ceded sovereignty and the modern Maori elites claiming they didn't.

With this position these elites crap all over their tupuna....but the tupuna aren't writing the cheques are they?

[Logen Ninefingers]

It's interesting that some Māori are being called 'kūpapa' by people whose ancestors are real kūpapa Māori who recognised Queen Victoria as their sovereign and fought with Europeans against Māori 'rebels'! Many of them would also have 'colonists' DNA in their bloodline as well.

Kūpapa: The term has also had an occasional modern usage in a derogatory sense to describe a Māori who is seen as being on the Pākehā or government side and acting against the interests of Māori in conflicts with government authorities.

[mistaTea]

There will be no referendum on Treaty Principles

You have a crystal ball?

There will not be a referendum in the current term of this government. Of that I am as confident as I can be.

And hopefully there will never be a referendum on it.

Tyranny of the majority is not democratic in my view. Any referenda on treaty principles would be a forgone conclusion and therefore a sham that would lead to major discontent. I can’t see how we would all end up better off long term if a referendum is the mechanism we use to try to ‘put the issue to bed’.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Rightist viewpoint? From my experience, historically, Maori are all for the "might is right" position. Indiscretions committed by Maori were about "conquest". The difference, as they see it, was that the Treaty wasn't about conquest but by mutual agreement. Mutual agreement that according to modern Maori elites never existed due to the Crown thinking Maori ceded sovereignty and the modern Maori elites claiming they didn't.

With this position these elites crap all over their tupuna....but the tupuna aren't writing the cheques are they?

If their ancestors hadn't ceded sovereignty then why were those same ancestors fighting for 'their sovereign' against other Maori that they saw as 'rebels'? Make it make sense! Complete intellectual dishonesty by the Left, they are disowning the actions and stated veiwpoints of their ancestors in exchange for totally bizarre and contradictory modern interpretations.

[Logen Ninefingers]

There will not be a referendum in the current term of this government. Of that I am as confident as I can be.

And hopefully there will never be a referendum on it.

Tyranny of the majority is not democratic in my view. Any referenda on treaty principles would be a forgone conclusion and therefore a sham that would lead to major discontent. I can’t see how we would all end up better off long term if a referendum is the mechanism we use to try to ‘put the issue to bed’.

Well we have had the 'Principles of the Treaty' foisted on us by a Labour government.

These principles were codified in 1987

So that is not even a 'tyranny of the majority', that is just a tyranny by a particular government of the day.

If 'Principles of the Treaty' - which are not to be found in any of the Treaty documents from 1840 - can be (and were) 'foisted' upon us by a long-gone Labour government, why such horror and outrage from you at the prospect of a referendum? Or would you accept that the government of the day can make the changes it sees fit to make, without needing to resort to a referendum?

I want to see the 'Principles of the Treaty' gone. 'Labour of 1987' do not represent me, and do not represent millions of other New Zealanders. Yet you want to tell me that 'Labour of 1987' represents some sort of unchallengable and inalienable position, while an actual referendum giving voice to all of the populace is something which is abhorrent and 'a tyranny'.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Well we have had the 'Principles of the Treaty' foisted on us by a Labour government.

These principles were codified in 1987

So that is not even a 'tyranny of the majority', that is just a tyranny by a particular government of the day.

If 'Principles of the Treaty' - which are not to be found in any of the Treaty documents from 1840 - can be (and were) 'foisted' upon us by a long-gone Labour government, why such horror and outrage from you at the prospect of a referendum? Or would you accept that the government of the day can make the changes it sees fit to make, without needing to resort to a referendum?

I want to see the 'Principles of the Treaty' gone. 'Labour of 1987' do not represent me, and do not represent millions of other New Zealanders. Yet you want to tell me that 'Labour of 1987' represents some sort of unchallengable and inalienable position, while an actual referendum giving voice to all of the populace is something which is abhorrent and 'a tyranny'.

There is The Treaty of Waitangi of 1840

then there is the

Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi of 1987

THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!

-------

The "Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill" was introduced to the New Zealand Parliament in 2005 as a private member's bill by New Zealand First MP Doug Woolerton. "This bill eliminates all references to the expressions 'the principles of the Treaty', 'the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi' and the 'Treaty of Waitangi and its principles' from all New Zealand Statutes including all preambles, interpretations, schedules, regulations and other provisos included in or arising from each and every such Statute".[16]

At the first reading of the bill, New Zealand First leader Winston Peters said:

"This is not an attack on the treaty itself, but on the insertion of the term 'the principles of the Treaty' into legislation."
...
"This bill seeks to do three fundamental things. First, as the bill's title implies, it seeks to remove all references to the undefined and divisive term "the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi" from legislation. Second, it seeks to reverse the insidious culture of division that has grown up around the existence of these principles. It has seen Māori pitted against Māori and non-Māori, seen family members pitted against each other, and gone right to the heart of our social fabric. Finally, the bill aims to put an end to the expensive and never-ending litigious programme that has sprung up around these principles. This programme has diverted hundreds of millions of dollars into dead-end paths and away from the enlightened programmes that are the true pathway to success."

The bill failed to pass its second reading in November 2007.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Apparently NZ was 'settled by consent' and it's all thanks to 'the Treaty'. Yet settlement was already occuring and had been for many years, and had got to the point where it was irreversible - as acknowleged by Tāmati Wāka Nene at the debate prior to the signing of the Treaty:

Tāmati Wāka Nene said to the chiefs:

"Some of you tell Hobson to go. But that's not going to solve our difficulties. We have already sold so much land here in the north. We have no way of controlling the Europeans who have settled on it. I'm amazed to hear you telling him to go! Why didn't you tell the traders and grog-sellers to go years ago? There are too many Europeans here now and there are children that unite our races."

[ithaka]

There is The Treaty of Waitangi of 1840

then there is the

Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi of 1987

THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!

-------


100% correct! The ignorance of this simple fact is widespread. The MSM certainly do not understand this difference.

For anyone looking to educate themselves, here is a good place to start

https://democracyproject.nz/2023/10/03/elizabeth-rata-two-treaties-of-waitangi-the-articles-treaty-and-the-principles-treaty/

[Logen Ninefingers]

100% correct! The ignorance of this simple fact is widespread. The MSM certainly do not understand this difference.

For anyone looking to educate themselves, here is a good place to start

https://democracyproject.nz/2023/10/03/elizabeth-rata-two-treaties-of-waitangi-the-articles-treaty-and-the-principles-treaty/

Yeah, we get people saying that they "utterly reject 'The Principles of the Treaty' that David Seymour is trying to foist upon us, via a referendum" - which is apparently a 'tyranny of the majority' (this being exactly what Rawairi Waititi referred to democracy itself as). Moreover, they say that Seymour is trying to rewrite the Treaty.....he categorically isn't, he doesn't aim to change one single word of it!

Yet the same people that would utterly reject 'The Principles of the Treaty' that would be ratified by a referendum, 'utterly accept' the Principles of the Treaty that were foisted on us by a Labour government in 1987!
Make it make sense!

[dobby41]

There is The Treaty of Waitangi of 1840

then there is the

Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi of 1987

Then there is the 'real' document - Te Tiriti. The only one that actually counts.

[jonu]

Then there is the 'real' document - Te Tiriti. The only one that actually counts.

Who wrote it?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Actually, the whole debate isn't about the Treaty at all, it's about this:

Labour does something.
Left: "This is magnificent".

Centre right proposes to do something.
Left: "I will oppose this until the day I die".

Considering anything from a standpoint of intellectual honesty doesn't even enter into it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Then there is the 'real' document - Te Tiriti. The only one that actually counts.

So if the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi don't count, why are they in our legislation?

[mistaTea]

Some very strong comments indeed. Just shows how divisive this stuff can easily become.

So our political leaders on all sides need to tread carefully.

We must not forget the decades of legal precedent though. The Principles of the TOW did not just get made up on the spot one day.

That was after a lot of work by the Privy Council, various NZ Courts and the Waitangi Tribunal.

A long and thorough process, which we cannot just dismiss out of hand.

And selective examples of Maori chiefs teaming up with the Brits to thump a neighbouring tribe (in your example, Waikato) is not what I would call proof of anything. A lot of these tribes were fighting before Europeans settled, and memories were long for past grievances. If Ngapuhi teamed up with the Brits to give Waikato a sort out, I would not cling to that as 'evidence' that Ngapuhi must have willingly and knowingle ceded sovereingty to The Crown.

I am pretty sure if you said that up North you probably would get scragged! :ohmy: (This last one is a bit of humour before anyone says I am advocating violence from 'radical Maori' living in Northland).

[Logen Ninefingers]

“There’s no principles; the treaty is written, that’s it.”
King Tuheitia, speaking at the national hui.

The King doesn't believe in the 'Principles' or 'Te Tiriti', he believes in 'the Treaty'.

[Getty]

“There’s no principles; the treaty is written, that’s it.”
King Tuheitia, speaking at the national hui.

The King doesn't believe in the 'Principles' or 'Te Tiriti', he believes in 'the Treaty'.

The King Tu is just a mouthpiece of Tuk Morgan and co.

They know he hasn't got long to go, and will use him as an expendable item in the interim

[Logen Ninefingers]

Some very strong comments indeed. Just shows how divisive this stuff can easily become.

So our political leaders on all sides need to tread carefully.

We must not forget the decades of legal precedent though. The Principles of the TOW did not just get made up on the spot one day.

That was after a lot of work by the Privy Council, various NZ Courts and the Waitangi Tribunal.

A long and thorough process, which we cannot just dismiss out of hand.

And selective examples of Maori chiefs teaming up with the Brits to thump a neighbouring tribe (in your example, Waikato) is not what I would call proof of anything. A lot of these tribes were fighting before Europeans settled, and memories were long for past grievances. If Ngapuhi teamed up with the Brits to give Waikato a sort out, I would not cling to that as 'evidence' that Ngapuhi must have willingly and knowingle ceded soveireingty to The Crown.

I am pretty sure if you said that up North you probably would get scragged! :ohmy: (This last one is a bit of humour before anyone says I am advocating violence from 'radical Maori' living in Northland).

And selective examples of Maori chiefs teaming up with the Brits to thump a neighbouring tribe (in your example, Waikato) is not what I would call proof of anything. A lot of these tribes were fighting before Europeans settled, and memories were long for past grievances. If Ngapuhi teamed up with the Brits to give Waikato a sort out, I would not cling to that as 'evidence' that Ngapuhi must have willingly and knowingle ceded soveireingty to The Crown.

A bit of cognitive dissonance now appearing? 'Selective example'? I gave a prime example relating to a tribe that made up approx 40% of the Maori population of New Zealand at the time.

-----

The Treaty of Waitangi struck a bargain between two parties: the Crown and Maori. Its promises of security, however, were followed from 1845 to 1872 by a series of volatile and bloody conflicts commonly known as the New Zealand Wars.

Many people today believe that these wars were fought solely between the Crown and Maori, when the reality is that Maori aligned with both sides — resulting in three participants with differing viewpoints. It is rarely recognised, for instance, that Te Wherowhero, later the first Maori King, was originally a strong supporter of the Crown; or that the numbers of Maori who aligned with the Crown or were neutral probably exceeded those who fought against it. Or that the frontline combat over the final two years was fought almost exclusively between opposing Maori forces.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The King Tu is just a mouthpiece of Tuk Morgan and co.

They know he hasn't got long to go, and will use him as an expendable item in the interim

Well I wonder how do they feel when he starts to say things that are 'off message'!

[mistaTea]

And selective examples of Maori chiefs teaming up with the Brits to thump a neighbouring tribe (in your example, Waikato) is not what I would call proof of anything. A lot of these tribes were fighting before Europeans settled, and memories were long for past grievances. If Ngapuhi teamed up with the Brits to give Waikato a sort out, I would not cling to that as 'evidence' that Ngapuhi must have willingly and knowingle ceded soveireingty to The Crown.

A bit of cognitive dissonance now appearing? 'Selective example'? I gave a prime example relating to a tribe that made up approx 40% of the Maori population of New Zealand at the time.

-----

The Treaty of Waitangi struck a bargain between two parties: the Crown and Maori. Its promises of security, however, were followed from 1845 to 1872 by a series of volatile and bloody conflicts commonly known as the New Zealand Wars.

Many people today believe that these wars were fought solely between the Crown and Maori, when the reality is that Maori aligned with both sides — resulting in three participants with differing viewpoints. It is rarely recognised, for instance, that Te Wherowhero, later the first Maori King, was originally a strong supporter of the Crown; or that the numbers of Maori who aligned with the Crown or were neutral probably exceeded those who fought against it. Or that the frontline combat over the final two years was fought almost exclusively between opposing Maori forces.

Ok I see.

But what about all of the legal precedent from the 1940s?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Ok I see.

But what about all of the legal precedent from the 1940s?

Happy to discuss it. What are you referring to exactly?

[mistaTea]

Happy to discuss it. What are you referring to exactly?

I am referring to all of the Court assessments as well as the work done by the Waitangi Tribunal.

And just note that I am not trying to push any given political ideology, just trying to be more open to understanding the various perspectives (and more conscious these days that what I know and think I know is a small fraction of what is ultimately knowable).

Unless I am mistaken, by the time we got to 1987 there was almost 50 years of legal precedent set in determining which version of the treaty ultimately counts and what each article was interepreted to mean?

Or am I not correct about that?

[Entrep]

What a day on this thread and there's still time for the evening rush hour. Phew.

I hope, though, there is one thing we can at least all agree on. I quote:


New Zealand has never been more divided than today.

And it’s because the current government has the audacity to suggest all New Zealanders are equal.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I am referring to all of the Court assessments as well as the work done by the Waitangi Tribunal.

And just note that I am not trying to push any given political ideology, just trying to be more open to understanding the various perspectives (and more conscious these days that what I know and think I know is a small fraction of what is ultimately knowable).

Unless I am mistaken, by the time we got to 1987 there was almost 50 years of legal precedent set in determining which version of the treaty ultimately counts and what each article was interepreted to mean?

Or am I not correct about that?

Unless I am mistaken, by the time we got to 1987 there was almost 50 years of legal precedent set in determining which version of the treaty ultimately counts and what each article was interepreted to mean?

I'm just asking you what you base that idea upon (giving examples), as you may very well be mistaken. My understanding is that the reverse is true: interpretations and decisions reached in 1987 were a break with any previous interpretation of the Treaty i.e. they were not 'just a codification of '50 years of legal precedent'.'

[Logen Ninefingers]

What a day on this thread and there's still time for the evening rush hour. Phew.

I hope, though, there is one thing we can at least all agree on. I quote:

New Zealand has never been more divided than today.

And it’s because the current government has the audacity to suggest all New Zealanders are equal.

I agree with this. I think Maori believed they were heading inevitably to a situation where they would be confirmed in their sovereignty, and would then join with the 'Crown' (effectively the NZ government) in a 'partnership' relationship governing over the rest of us.
This is something that is not compatible with a modern democracy where all are equal in terms of their right to pursue happiness, own property, & participate equally in our democracy.
The current government is pursuing the only correct course of action that will preserve our democracy, and the Left are cynically throwing it under the bus despite many on the Left knowing the truth.

[Entrep]

i'm tapped out

[mistaTea]

i'm tapped out

Same. Too much to absorb in a single day!

[Getty]

I agree with this. I think Maori believed they were heading inevitably to a situation where they would be confirmed in their sovereignty, and would then join with the 'Crown' (effectively the NZ government) in a 'partnership' relationship governing over the rest of us.
This is something that is not compatible with a modern democracy where all are equal in terms of their right to pursue happiness, own property, & participate equally in our democracy.
The current government is pursuing the only correct course of action that will preserve our democracy, and the Left are cynically throwing it under the bus despite many on the Left knowing the truth.

Well, that post seems to have deguassed the debate Logen.

Better keep it up your sleeve for future reference!

[ynot]

Arden and Co fueled the radical co governance,3 water,etc adjenda. Now back in the real world and the militants are throwing a tantrum.

[mistaTea]

Arden and Co fueled the radical co governance,3 water,etc adjenda. Now back in the real world and the militants are throwing a tantrum.

They definitely stuffed it up that’s for sure. Too vague and tried to whip it through too fast.

Then they looked horrified at the push back as the majority felt uncertain.

Money for jam for the opposition parties come election time.

I look forward to watching how the discussion unfolds on the proposed Bill.

If this forum is anything to go by it is going to get heated. Hopefully not so heated that we can’t hear each other though.

[ynot]

They definitely stuffed it up that’s for sure. Too vague and tried to whip it through too fast.

Then they looked horrified at the push back as the majority felt uncertain.

Money for jam for the opposition parties come election time.

I look forward to watching how the discussion unfolds on the proposed Bill.

If this forum is anything to go by it is going to get heated. Hopefully not so heated that we can’t hear each other though.
Whip it through too fast was the only way it was going to stand a chance as the majority know it all noise and bs.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Arden and Co fueled the radical co governance,3 water,etc adjenda. Now back in the real world and the militants are throwing a tantrum.

The militants are being aided and abetted - and encouraged - in achieving their objectives by all the Left wing political parties, the media, and all the arms of the state. The public service is heavily politicised & moreover the invented ‘Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi’ have been infecting all legislation since 1987. Effectively you now have a politicised public service in an undeclared war with a democratically elected government.

You can see the politicisation in any advertisement for a public service role. You can see it in language which co-opts Labour party sloganeering about ‘transformation’, you can see it in language that defines Maori primarily by their relationship to ‘Te Tiriti o Waitangi’ (the Maori version of ‘the Treaty).
If you hold contrary views to the ‘acceptable’ Leftist viewpoint, you are excluded from the role. In this way the Left secure prime positions for ‘their people’, and secures ‘uniformity of thought’ amongst the public service.

I don’t have a problem with Maori names and people speaking Maori, none whatsoever. I do have a problem with the overt politicisation of the public service.

https://www.seek.co.nz/job/73111855?ref=search-standalone&type=standout#sol=738070036d38c8f497a3051095d70128 be155d69

Advisor Customer Liaison - 24-month Fixed Term
Kainga Ora
Tauranga Central, Bay of Plenty
Housing & Homelessness Services (Community Services & Development)
Contract/Temp
$92,211 pro rata

——

‘We are passionate about transforming New Zealand for the better. That includes being a trusted partner for Māori and iwi, protecting and enabling their rights, interests and aspirations under the guidance of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.’

——

Nōu te rourou - What's in it for you?

We offer competitive salaries, five weeks' annual leave, and flexible working arrangements. As a Kāinga Ora - Homes and Communities employee, we want to make sure that you have all the tools and support you need. We want to ensure you are healthy and have work-life balance.

Ō Tātou Uara - Our Values

Our values were developed by us, for us. They unite us as an organisation and guide how we work every day. Our values are:

Manaakitanga - People at the Heart
Mahi Tahi - Better Together
Whanake - Be Bold

——

Tūhono mai - Join us

[mistaTea]

The militants are being aided and abetted - and encouraged - in achieving their objectives by all the Left wing political parties, the media, and all the arms of the state. The public service is heavily politicised & moreover the invented ‘Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi’ have been infecting all legislation since 1987. Effectively you now have a politicised public service in an undeclared war with a democratically elected government.

You can see the politicisation in any advertisement for a public service role. You can see it in language which co-opts Labour party sloganeering about ‘transformation’, you can see it in language that defines Maori primarily by their relationship to ‘Te Tiriti o Waitangi’ (the Maori version of ‘the Treaty).
If you hold contrary views to the ‘acceptable’ Leftist viewpoint, you are excluded from the role. In this way the Left secure prime positions for ‘their people’, and secures ‘uniformity of thought’ amongst the public service.

I don’t have a problem with Maori names and people speaking Maori, none whatsoever. I do have a problem with the overt politicisation of the public service.

https://www.seek.co.nz/job/73111855?ref=search-standalone&type=standout#sol=738070036d38c8f497a3051095d70128 be155d69

Advisor Customer Liaison - 24-month Fixed Term
Kainga Ora
Tauranga Central, Bay of Plenty
Housing & Homelessness Services (Community Services & Development)
Contract/Temp
$92,211 pro rata

——

‘We are passionate about transforming New Zealand for the better. That includes being a trusted partner for Māori and iwi, protecting and enabling their rights, interests and aspirations under the guidance of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.’

——

Nōu te rourou - What's in it for you?

We offer competitive salaries, five weeks' annual leave, and flexible working arrangements. As a Kāinga Ora - Homes and Communities employee, we want to make sure that you have all the tools and support you need. We want to ensure you are healthy and have work-life balance.

Ō Tātou Uara - Our Values

Our values were developed by us, for us. They unite us as an organisation and guide how we work every day. Our values are:

Manaakitanga - People at the Heart
Mahi Tahi - Better Together
Whanake - Be Bold

——

Tūhono mai - Join us

I take it you won’t be submitting an application!

[Logen Ninefingers]

I take it you won’t be submitting an application!

I think it is deeply condescending to have arms of the government conclude that all Maori essentially think the same way & define themselves primarily by their relationship to ‘Te Tiriti O Waitangi’. I know it’s a viewpoint that Te Pati Maori and all other radicals are eager to assert, but I think it’s an insult to so many who consider themselves to be ‘Maori’. Unless they are useful to the activists, they are just ‘the wrong sort of Maori’ - or in the case of Maori such as David Seymour, they have their Maoriness dismissed altogether. If someone declares themselves to be Maori, we have been taught that this must not be questioned (“what, do you want a blood quantum?”) But it now seems this edict only applies if you are “the right sort of Maori” - one that supports the activists.

No, I won’t be applying.

[ynot]

The militants are being aided and abetted - and encouraged - in achieving their objectives by all the Left wing political parties, the media, and all the arms of the state. The public service is heavily politicised & moreover the invented ‘Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi’ have been infecting all legislation since 1987. Effectively you now have a politicised public service in an undeclared war with a democratically elected government.

You can see the politicisation in any advertisement for a public service role. You can see it in language which co-opts Labour party sloganeering about ‘transformation’, you can see it in language that defines Maori primarily by their relationship to ‘Te Tiriti o Waitangi’ (the Maori version of ‘the Treaty).
If you hold contrary views to the ‘acceptable’ Leftist viewpoint, you are excluded from the role. In this way the Left secure prime positions for ‘their people’, and secures ‘uniformity of thought’ amongst the public service.

I don’t have a problem with Maori names and people speaking Maori, none whatsoever. I do have a problem with the overt politicisation of the public service.

https://www.seek.co.nz/job/73111855?ref=search-standalone&type=standout#sol=738070036d38c8f497a3051095d70128 be155d69

Advisor Customer Liaison - 24-month Fixed Term
Kainga Ora
Tauranga Central, Bay of Plenty
Housing & Homelessness Services (Community Services & Development)
Contract/Temp
$92,211 pro rata

——

‘We are passionate about transforming New Zealand for the better. That includes being a trusted partner for Māori and iwi, protecting and enabling their rights, interests and aspirations under the guidance of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.’

——

Nōu te rourou - What's in it for you?

We offer competitive salaries, five weeks' annual leave, and flexible working arrangements. As a Kāinga Ora - Homes and Communities employee, we want to make sure that you have all the tools and support you need. We want to ensure you are healthy and have work-life balance.

Ō Tātou Uara - Our Values

Our values were developed by us, for us. They unite us as an organisation and guide how we work every day. Our values are:

Manaakitanga - People at the Heart
Mahi Tahi - Better Together
Whanake - Be Bold

——

Tūhono mai - Join us
Absolutely. This Media funding can't be maintained should their bias continue.

[mistaTea]

I think it is deeply condescending to have arms of the government conclude that all Maori essentially think the same way & define themselves primarily by their relationship to ‘Te Tiriti O Waitangi’. I know it’s a viewpoint that Te Pati Maori and all other radicals are eager to assert, but I think it’s an insult to so many who consider themselves to be ‘Maori’. Unless they are useful to the activists, they are just ‘the wrong sort of Maori’ - or in the case of Maori such as David Seymour, they have their Maoriness dismissed altogether. If someone declares themselves to be Maori, we have been taught that this must not be questioned (“what, do you want a blood quantum?”) But it now seems this edict only applies if you are “the right sort of Maori” - one that supports the activists.

No, I won’t be applying.

I remember feeling pretty p1ssed off when Willy Jackson referred to Seymour as a “rubbish Māori”.

I agree that it is horrible when some of these politicians try to effectively say you are only a ‘true Māori’ if you agree with their world view.

That would be like me saying someone is a rubbish white if they don’t agree with my politics. I think everyone would agree that is just nuts.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I remember feeling pretty p1ssed off when Willy Jackson referred to Seymour as a “rubbish Māori”.

I agree that it is horrible when some of these politicians try to effectively say you are only a ‘true Māori’ if you agree with their world view.

That would be like me saying someone is a rubbish white if they don’t agree with my politics. I think everyone would agree that is just nuts.

There are people out there with less Maori blood than Seymour, but they have bigger pendants & facial tattoo’s.

[Balance]

The woke leftist losers (a minority but with the support of their counterparts in the MSM) and similarly, posters like davflaws do not see, read or hear the implied threats of violence and civil war unless the Maori elites and fat cats get their way in everything they want.

And the Maori elites & fat cats have had the benefit of 6 years of Ardern & Hipkins bending over and giving in on everything they wanted.

So in the context of the above threats of violence and civil war, I do warn that NZers better brace themselves for years of strife and conflict ahead.

And as I have posted before, so be it if there is civil war in NZ as threatened by the Maori separatists and elites.

The majority of NZers, who voted out Labour & the left, surely are perfectly entitled to defend themselves against the threat.

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/warning-m%C4%81ori-will-go-war-over-acts-treaty-referendum

"Top Labour MP Willie Jackson says Māori have told him they would "go to war" over ACT's proposal for a referendum on the Treaty of Waitangi."


"I'm just giving a warning: I work amongst our people ... who will go to war for this, war against [ACT leader David] Seymour and his mates."

[COLOR="#0000FF"]https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/maori-king-calls-for-hope-over-protest-while-dismissing-govt-treaty-bill/M2EXZG3JLNHTPFKEEUFK7Z5QXY/

'....... alter the influence of the Treaty could lead to “hikois from hell” and civil unrest akin to the 1981 Springbok tour."

'......the coalition Government was “part of a global movement of white supremacy” while some threatened protest and even secession from the Crown if change wasn’t forthcoming.'

' .... the iwi also restated its regular position in favour of seceding from the Government if policies that undermined Māori sovereignty were pursued.'

https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350102894/don-brash-why-we-need-referendum-treaty

"Green Party leader James Shaw warned there could be wide-scale disruption leading to violence if ACT’s Seymour is successful in getting National’s Christopher Luxon to agree to his referendum on the Treaty”. Te Pāti Māori president John Tamihere added that if Maori were backed into a corner it would spark a civil disobedience movement that would shut down the country’s major cities.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/outrage-over-maori-lecturer-who-lined-up-new-zealand-colonisation-with-palestine-and-what-the-university-bosses-had-to-say/IWVDON73LRD6XHWPIUGIMF7CZA/

' .... Borrell allegedly forecast violence in New Zealand as a result of Māori not achieving equity. He said it would be “offensive to Māori, who do not wish to be compared to Hamas”.

[dobby41]

Who wrote it?

Physically?
It is the one most Maori signed therefore the one that counts.
It is internationally agreed that an agreement in the indigenous language is the one that counts.

[dobby41]

So if the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi don't count, why are they in our legislation?

A good question!
National included the term in some legislation around 1984 with no definition of what it actually meant.

[Entrep]

All this debate on English vs Maori version, what it really means etc, is a complete waste of time.

The idea of our elected Government, currently National, NZF, Act, not having the right govern the entire country is completely incompatible with the understanding that I would argue 90% or more of the citizens of New Zealand have.

And, if that's not the case (that the Government governs everyone) then tell us all now, so we can all make our decisions. Because that underpins the very nature of our rights as citizen of this country.

If there's gonna be multiple governments, I want to be damned sure that my tax dollars are going solely to fund the one that protects my rights and those of my family.

[jonu]

Physically?
It is the one most Maori signed therefore the one that counts.
It is internationally agreed that an agreement in the indigenous language is the one that counts.

You have missed the point entirely. Europeans wrote the Te Reo version.....as a translation of what they had already written in english. There was no confusion. The insult piled on the signatories that they didn't understand what they signed is extraordinary. It certainly wasn't a position supported by Sir Apirana Ngata who is also being crapped upon by the new so called more knowledgeable Maori elites and fawning pakeha.

If you become a subject, you cede sovereignty. Subject means something. To be Queenie's subject means you are subject TO her....and her governance.
Did the chiefs just think she was offering them military protection and rule of law out of the goodness of her heart? After the dreadful intertribal slaughter of the musket wars and the conversion to Christianity ending the practice of slavery, Maori were very keen for a more peaceful way, that they saw could be delivered by the English. The fact that things were less than perfect in the delivery is why we have the Waitangi tribunal, not to re-write the treaty.

[mistaTea]

All this debate on English vs Maori version, what it really means etc, is a complete waste of time.

The idea of our elected Government, currently National, NZF, Act, not having the right govern the entire country is completely incompatible with the understanding that I would argue 90% or more of the citizens of New Zealand have.

And, if that's not the case (that the Government governs everyone) then tell us all now, so we can all make our decisions. Because that underpins the very nature of our rights as citizen of this country.

If there's gonna be multiple governments, I want to be damned sure that my tax dollars are going solely to fund the one that protects my rights and those of my family.

Yes, having a single government that has the right to govern is a key point.

Davflaws mentioned that there should be no issue there however would need to understand exactly what was defined by ‘govern’.

He has not come back to elaborate yet, but I would be keen to understand what kind of definition of govern he thinks would be expected by Māori.

Without a single government the whole thing falls down. And I would agree that if we did start separating governments etc (highly highly unlikely) then I would be aghast if my taxpayer dollars were funding Māori government structures etc.

As would the vast majority I believe. Once again, any future solutions must be enduring solutions. Not things they are just going to cause more contention, anger and disagreement.

I do not believe the Māori Party represent the majority of Maori though so we do need to be careful not to get too carried away when they say things and attribute it to ‘Maori’.

I see the co-leader is saying the new coalition is taking a white supremacist approach. Deeply unhelpful and she has not provided any evidence to support such an incredible allegation of course.

I am more inclined to listen to what was said at the recent hui to get a better sense of what Maori think/want than The Maori Party.