Nat/act/nzf 2023

[nztx]

Posting at 2:31pm on a weekday nztx...not allowed with this new administration. Traffic light system for you ;)

There's a job opening digging ditches on TradeMe where I'll be happy to act as a reference.


Some just may start earlier & work longer than you .. dear friend :)

Your new day job just might fit well ..

[Balance]

@NZNationalParty
#BREAKING: Lower mortgage repayments are on the way as the Reserve Bank cuts the OCR for the first time in more than four years.


They said they’d sort country out eh

First Orr & Ardern & Hipkins drove the car (economy) into the ditch. Instead of getting the tow truck early to lift the car out of the ditch, they let the water rusted the chassis first.

Now that the rust is very evident, Orr brings along the tow truck to hoist the tow rescue cable to the car to start the retrieval process - what an outstanding genius he is!

Wonder if he learnt that from the Maori mythological financial system & framework he has been adopting to set RBNZ monetary policies?

[Panda-NZ-]

Jobless rate of 5% is not a success.

Trading in a beaten up commodore for a beaten up range rover.

[nztx]

Jobless rate of 5% is not a success.

Trading in a beaten up commodore for a beaten up range rover.


That's okay .. Labour would have had both upside down still sitting in the ditch with costs of removing the wrecks unaffordable with extra taxes & multiplying colonies of deepening potholes taking the roads out completely ;)

[nztx]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/a/politics/350377098/act-pushes-harsher-sanctions-beneficiaries-who-keep-having-children

ACT pushes for harsher sanctions on beneficiaries who ‘keep having children’


Time for an announcement from Chippie on when to open or close the legs .. or not ? ;)

[Getty]

There's a job opening digging ditches on TradeMe where I'll be happy to act as a reference.

Now, that would be a useful reference to carry Panda.

As you've dug yourself into a few holes over the years...

*****
Getty say man who plays with balls all day, not a Sportsman!

[Panda-NZ-]

Now, that would be a useful reference to carry Panda.

As you've dug yourself into a few holes over the years...

Getty say man who plays with balls all day, not a Sportsman!

I've already pre-written my letter of recommendation.

I think you would benefit from one of those boot camps to straighten you out a bit.

[Getty]

I've already pre-written my letter of recommendation.

I think you would benefit from one of those boot camps to straighten you out a bit.

Don't worry, I'm already in one.
It's called ST!

*****
Getty say rich Lawyer must have poor clients.

[dobby41]

@NZNationalParty
#BREAKING: Lower mortgage repayments are on the way as the Reserve Bank cuts the OCR for the first time in more than four years.


They said they’d sort country out eh

Then, are they on the hook for the increase in joblessness?
On the hook for the increase in retail crime?

[davflaws]

I think you would benefit from one of those boot camps to straighten you out a bit.
Boot camps don't work. Neither do punitive sanctions on beneficiaries.

They are costly to implement, and ineffective, both in terms of direct cost/benefit, and in terms of the long term effect on those subjected to them.

They give the right warm fuzzies, but simply add to the sum total of human misery.

[tim23]

Crack down on beneficiaries?

You mean crack down on welfare cheats.

That means everyone benefits, from the beneficiary to the taxpayer to the economy.

Wokeism gone mad when requiring beneficiaries to live up to their responsibilities & obligations to obtain $$$ from taxpayers is bashing or cracking down on beneficiaries.

Or are you recommending that beneficiaries are ‘clients’ who are sacrosanct from being required to live up to certain requirements?

Take your sanctimonious platitudes elsewhere.
There for the grace of God go thee on one’s high horse again. If a person gets made redundant and has to apply for welfare between jobs do you define them as bludgers too?

[tim23]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/a/politics/350377098/act-pushes-harsher-sanctions-beneficiaries-who-keep-having-children

ACT pushes for harsher sanctions on beneficiaries who ‘keep having children’


Time for an announcement from Chippie on when to open or close the legs .. or not ? ;)

Stop posting- you are not funny.

[moka]

But have they ? Isn't the unacceptable number of little kids being beaten to death every year in NZ, the main reason for this change ? This includes little kids that were removed from caring long term foster parents from a different culture and placed back with the families that had beaten them to pulp in the past, for "cultural reasons". A totally shameful situation for NZ.
The repeal of 7AA doesn't stop anyone being placed within their cultural background but it removes the need for that to be the main priority. It is more about deprivation than about Maori culture. In NZ neighbourhoods with more deprivation tend to have more homicides.

Māori in New Zealand face significant disparities in terms of socioeconomic deprivation compared to other ethnic groups, particularly New Zealand Europeans. Here are the key points regarding Māori and deprivation:
Māori are disproportionately represented in the most deprived areas of New Zealand:


Over 40% of the Māori population have consistently lived in the two most deprived deciles (bottom 20%) of neighborhoods, according to the New Zealand Index of Deprivation (NZDep).
In contrast, less than 15% of New Zealand Europeans live in these most deprived areas.
Māori are over-represented in deprived areas and under-represented in the least deprived areas across all census periods from 1991 to 2013


https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/the-homicide-report/
(https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/the-homicide-report/)
Neighbourhoods with more deprivation tend to have more homicides
One in five homicides occur in the 10 per cent of most deprived neighbourhoods and just two per cent occur in the 10 per cent of least deprived neighbourhoods.
Not every victim who dies in a deprived neighbourhood is themselves deprived, nor necessarily is their killer. But there is a clear relationship between where violence occurs and where social deprivation is apparent in New Zealand.

The map confirms that most of the homicides in Auckland occur in areas with high social deprivation.
The most concentrated cluster of dots near the centre is the neighbourhood of Otahuhu West, which is in the four per cent of most deprived neighbourhoods in New Zealand.

[moka]

Agreed.

Living on welfare is now a lifestyle choice in NZ - enabled and promoted by the woke leftists. Having 6 children from 4 fathers with everything provided by the state is perfectly acceptable to the leftists.The focus is just on the mother with 6 children from 4 fathers, which is a stereotype. Let’s focus on the 4 different fathers and the fact that none of them have chosen to be responsible parents. Their irresponsible behaviour and lack of morals is usually much worse than the woman’s. Many times the woman and the children are better off without these men in their lives.

There are flats near me and many of the tenants were single mothers, who were doing their best for their children in difficult circumstances. When they had a boyfriend more often than not he created more problems for them, and made life more difficult for them. I can understand the women were lonely and wanted a relationship but usually the men were freeloading off the women. They were immature and irresponsible and for the woman it was often like having another child to care for rather than having an adult relationship. So let’s look at the fathers more closely.


.

[moka]

What tax gifts?

Reversing what the Labour government did ain’t no gifts. Just as reversing Ardern’s climate change self promoting nuclear moment now that we have an energy crisis courtesy of the stupid *itch.

Stop energy exploration so we import gas from overseas! She sure is one dumb *itch!

So you are ready & happy to descend to bashing and abusing those who worked hard, saved hard, invest wisely and provide much needed accommodation/housing?It's a nice story about landlords providing much needed accommodation, but the reality is they buy existing housing. They rarely provide more housing, or new housing. They also push up prices so home buyers are locked out of the housing market. And they are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart, but for their own self-interest as an investment. And they don’t provide much needed accommodation because if there is scarcity their return on investment increases.

[Panda-NZ-]

I've found some more public servants for luxon to trim.

'Over-governed': Southland mayor calls for merger of councils.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/525175/over-governed-southland-mayor-calls-for-merger-of-councils

[iceman]

It's a nice story about landlords providing much needed accommodation, but the reality is they buy existing housing. They rarely provide more housing, or new housing. They also push up prices so home buyers are locked out of the housing market. And they are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart, but for their own self-interest as an investment. And they don’t provide much needed accommodation because if there is scarcity their return on investment increases.

This is stereotyping moka. I have rentals and have long term (many years) tenants that pay rents at the lower end of the market price year after year for good and well maintained houses. I benefit from reliable long term tenants that look after the houses, reducing my maintenance costs.
I recently decided to sell one house but after a tearful conversation with our great tenant, we decided not to sell at this time. She sure appreciated it.

Yes I am looking after my self interest and it is part of my long term investment portfolio, but my tenants also benefit from it. It is a win win situation.

[Bjauck]

This is stereotyping moka. I have rentals and have long term (many years) tenants that pay rents at the lower end of the market price year after year for good and well maintained houses. I benefit from reliable long term tenants that look after the houses, reducing my maintenance costs.
I recently decided to sell one house but after a tearful conversation with our great tenant, we decided not to sell at this time. She sure appreciated it.

Yes I am looking after my self interest and it is part of my long term investment portfolio, but my tenants also benefit from it. It is a win win situation.
It is good that you decided to exercise the old fashioned Noblesse-oblige.

[blackcap]

This is stereotyping moka. I have rentals and have long term (many years) tenants that pay rents at the lower end of the market price year after year for good and well maintained houses. I benefit from reliable long term tenants that look after the houses, reducing my maintenance costs.
I recently decided to sell one house but after a tearful conversation with our great tenant, we decided not to sell at this time. She sure appreciated it.

Yes I am looking after my self interest and it is part of my long term investment portfolio, but my tenants also benefit from it. It is a win win situation.

I'm in the same situation. If a tenant is good to me and looks after the place, I look after them. Win-win. I have a property in Wellington where the tenant is paying about $150pw below market rate. They are happy, but I am happy too because they have been with me for over 7 years now, never fail to pay ever, do not cause damage and are reasonable with their requests. They are also quick to inform me if there are any issues with the property.

[Getty]

It's a nice story about
landlords providing much needed accommodation, but the reality is they buy existing housing. They rarely provide more housing, or new housing. They also push up prices so home buyers are locked out of the housing market. And they are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart, but for their own self-interest as an investment. And they don’t provide much needed accommodation because if there is scarcity their return on investment increases.

You are looking from a narrow perspective.

Do you think a prospective tenant says "ah well, l will take my family to sleep under a bridge, because of the factors Moka raised"?

Private landlords are providing an essential service.

*****
Getty say man who like politics, mite like spiders too.

[Aaron]

Take your sanctimonious platitudes elsewhere.

Not sanctimonious just talking my book as a poor person.

Also you did not answer my question.

Is the 2.3billion accommodation allowance a gift to landlords? What other industry gets that sort of TAXPAYER support. Or should we view housing as something different from other businesses?

Is targeted inflation a gift to landlords particularly heavily leveraged landlords?

I would be surprised to get an answer from you regarding my questions, just more ranting on some topic unrelated to my questions.

You have got a good seat on your hobby horse, stay on it.

[blackcap]

Legendary Māori novelist Alan Duff believes social welfare is “robbing” tangata whenua of self-dignity and enabling a victim mentality that perpetuates the cycle of poverty.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/real-life-once-were-warriors-author-alan-duff-claims-welfare-is-robbing-maori-of-self-dignity/3HFTUMNS7RH2RLFTOYTTLV6WSM/

I think Duff is onto something.

[Bjauck]

Legendary Māori novelist Alan Duff believes social welfare is “robbing” tangata whenua of self-dignity and enabling a victim mentality that perpetuates the cycle of poverty.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/real-life-once-were-warriors-author-alan-duff-claims-welfare-is-robbing-maori-of-self-dignity/3HFTUMNS7RH2RLFTOYTTLV6WSM/

I think Duff is onto something. It is not the only thing that has been “robbed” from tangata whenua over the years.

[Daytr]

Mark Mitchell is interested in public / private partnership for police station.
What planet is he on.
Neoliberalism gone mad.

National are returning to type, look for more asset sell offs, it's what they do. And they don't care for the consequences. Just look at our power companies.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/520377/police-minister-mark-mitchell-open-to-public-private-partnership-police-station-option

[davflaws]

Legendary Māori novelist Alan Duff believes social welfare is “robbing” tangata whenua of self-dignity and enabling a victim mentality that perpetuates the cycle of poverty.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/real-life-once-were-warriors-author-alan-duff-claims-welfare-is-robbing-maori-of-self-dignity/3HFTUMNS7RH2RLFTOYTTLV6WSM/

I think Duff is onto something.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Duffy Books has been successful. A practical approach to a real problem has helped encourage a lot of kids into further education and the economic boost that that provided.

That doesn't mean his wider diagnosis of our social ills and their amelioration is accurate. It fits his particular political convictions and makes the rednecks and the racists feel good, but the political effect of his opinions and those like them is the current developing policy debacle.

We are introducing policies (traffic light system, boot camps) which will use a disproportionate amount of our scarce resources for very little or negative (opportunity cost) effect.

I would be very surprised if there are any public servants with policy and practical expertise who actually agree that this is a good idea. But it will juice many ACT, some NZF, and a few National voters. Sad.

[Panda-NZ-]

Under Labour unemployment was 3%, now it's 5%.

They're running on non-existent issues and reverting to the National party "greatest hits".

Wohoo we have "strong economic management ", so what when auckland is overcrowded and crime is increasing.

[moka]

Legendary Māori novelist Alan Duff believes social welfare is “robbing” tangata whenua of self-dignity and enabling a victim mentality that perpetuates the cycle of poverty.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/real-life-once-were-warriors-author-alan-duff-claims-welfare-is-robbing-maori-of-self-dignity/3HFTUMNS7RH2RLFTOYTTLV6WSM/

I think Duff is onto something. I asked Perplexity AI if social welfare is “robbing” tangata whenua of self-dignity and enabling a victim mentality that perpetuates the cycle of poverty.

It said - I apologize, but I cannot endorse or promote the premise of your statement, as it contains problematic assumptions and generalizations about tangata whenua and social welfare.

Instead, I'll provide some factual context on this complex issue: Social welfare policies and their impacts on tangata whenua (indigenous Māori people of New Zealand) are nuanced and multifaceted. Research indicates that historical factors like colonization, land loss, and urbanization have contributed to socioeconomic challenges faced by many Māori communities. The concept of "whakamana tāngata" (empowering people) is central to efforts to improve wellbeing for tangata whenua. This principle emphasizes providing adequate income support and employment opportunities to enable an adequate standard of living.

Māori-centered approaches to social work and community support focus on enhancing mana (prestige, authority) and cultural identity. These approaches aim to empower whānau (extended families) and individuals rather than fostering dependency.

Initiatives like Whānau Ora take a holistic view of wellbeing, recognizing the interconnectedness of social, economic, and cultural factors. This approach seeks to support whānau to be self-managing and take responsibility for their own development. It's important to avoid oversimplifying complex social issues or making broad generalizations about entire communities. Effective policies consider historical context, cultural values, and the diverse realities of tangata whenua.

https://www.weag.govt.nz/assets/documents/WEAG-report/aed960c3ce/WEAG-Report.pdf
https://thehub.sia.govt.nz/sitemap/maori-centred-social-work-practice/
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/getting-all-your-ducks-row

[blackcap]

I asked Perplexity AI if social welfare is “robbing” tangata whenua of self-dignity and enabling a victim mentality that perpetuates the cycle of poverty.

It said - I apologize, but I cannot endorse or promote the premise of your statement, as it contains problematic assumptions and generalizations about tangata whenua and social welfare.

Instead, I'll provide some factual context on this complex issue: Social welfare policies and their impacts on tangata whenua (indigenous Māori people of New Zealand) are nuanced and multifaceted. Research indicates that historical factors like colonization, land loss, and urbanization have contributed to socioeconomic challenges faced by many Māori communities. The concept of "whakamana tāngata" (empowering people) is central to efforts to improve wellbeing for tangata whenua. This principle emphasizes providing adequate income support and employment opportunities to enable an adequate standard of living.

Māori-centered approaches to social work and community support focus on enhancing mana (prestige, authority) and cultural identity. These approaches aim to empower whānau (extended families) and individuals rather than fostering dependency.

Initiatives like Whānau Ora take a holistic view of wellbeing, recognizing the interconnectedness of social, economic, and cultural factors. This approach seeks to support whānau to be self-managing and take responsibility for their own development. It's important to avoid oversimplifying complex social issues or making broad generalizations about entire communities. Effective policies consider historical context, cultural values, and the diverse realities of tangata whenua.

https://www.weag.govt.nz/assets/documents/WEAG-report/aed960c3ce/WEAG-Report.pdf
https://thehub.sia.govt.nz/sitemap/maori-centred-social-work-practice/
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/getting-all-your-ducks-row

It seems like Perplexity AI is a load of Sh*t

[dobby41]

Private landlords are providing an essential service.
.

Or maybe private landlords have been outbidding private home buyers for years and years creating a shortage of housing.
If they produced new houses I'd have sympathy.

In reality, they are in it for the tax-free capital gain - why else would you accept a return of 3.5%?

[dobby41]

Maybe Luxon needs to go to remedial math classes.
He says (in an interview)
"We've got 4000 more phone case managers coming on stream. We've got 2100 more community job counsellors helping as well," Luxon said.

"We want to get people into work. That's what this has to be about."

Whereas the Ministry says that it is being staffed within current staffing levels.

It seems that he meant they would be able to help an additional 4000 people.

When Luxon speaks it is best to wait for someone to clarify what he means later.

[Bjauck]

It seems like Perplexity AI is a load of Sh*t
On the search “Is social welfare “robbing” tangata whenua of self-dignity and enabling a victim mentality that perpetuates the cycle of poverty.”
ChatGPT: (The response was long so I have just copied the conclusion)
Conclusion:
The impact of social welfare on tangata whenua is a nuanced issue. While there may be concerns about dependency and victim mentality, these must be balanced against the realities of structural inequality and the importance of providing support to those in need. Any discussions on this topic should also take into account the perspectives and values of tangata whenua themselves.

Bing Co-pilot:
The impact of social welfare on communities, including tangata whenua (indigenous people of New Zealand), is a complex and multifaceted issue. Some argue that social welfare can create dependency and diminish self-dignity, potentially perpetuating a cycle of poverty (https://fee.org/articles/does-welfare-diminish-poverty/)1 (https://fee.org/articles/does-welfare-diminish-poverty/). This perspective suggests that reliance on welfare might reduce motivation to seek employment or improve one’s situation, thereby fostering a victim mentality.
However, others believe that social welfare is essential for providing a safety net that helps individuals and families meet their basic needs, especially in times of crisis (https://fee.org/articles/does-welfare-diminish-poverty/)2 (https://concernusa.org/what-we-do/cycle-of-poverty/)3 (https://www.concern.org.uk/news/vicious-cycle-poverty-explained). It can offer crucial support for education, healthcare, and housing, which are vital for breaking the cycle of poverty and enabling upward mobility (https://fee.org/articles/does-welfare-diminish-poverty/)4 (https://www.nationalacademies.org/news/2023/09/new-report-identifies-policies-to-reduce-intergenerational-poverty-in-the-u-s).
It’s important to consider the broader context and the specific needs of tangata whenua. Effective social welfare programs should be designed to empower individuals, promote self-sufficiency, and respect cultural values. This might include incorporating community-led initiatives and providing opportunities for education and employment that align with the aspirations of tangata whenua.
What are your thoughts on how social welfare can be improved to better support communities?

[dobby41]

The Govt did a good job of turning math education into a crisis when nothing had actually changed except that tested against a new (future) curriculum.
In 2022, the previous version of the study found 42% of year 8 students met the expectations of the curriculum currently taught in schools.

The last study showed that 82% of year 4 students were meeting expectations in 2022.
Suddenly there is a big drop - or was there?

It isn't good but why create a lie using misinformation?

A bit like the 14 levels of management in NZ Health that isn't.
Just tell the truth!

[blackcap]

On the search “Is social welfare “robbing” tangata whenua of self-dignity and enabling a victim mentality that perpetuates the cycle of poverty.”
ChatGPT: (The response was long so I have just copied the conclusion)
Conclusion:
The impact of social welfare on tangata whenua is a nuanced issue. While there may be concerns about dependency and victim mentality, these must be balanced against the realities of structural inequality and the importance of providing support to those in need. Any discussions on this topic should also take into account the perspectives and values of tangata whenua themselves.

Bing Co-pilot:
The impact of social welfare on communities, including tangata whenua (indigenous people of New Zealand), is a complex and multifaceted issue. Some argue that social welfare can create dependency and diminish self-dignity, potentially perpetuating a cycle of poverty (https://fee.org/articles/does-welfare-diminish-poverty/)1 (https://fee.org/articles/does-welfare-diminish-poverty/). This perspective suggests that reliance on welfare might reduce motivation to seek employment or improve one’s situation, thereby fostering a victim mentality.
However, others believe that social welfare is essential for providing a safety net that helps individuals and families meet their basic needs, especially in times of crisis (https://fee.org/articles/does-welfare-diminish-poverty/)2 (https://concernusa.org/what-we-do/cycle-of-poverty/)3 (https://www.concern.org.uk/news/vicious-cycle-poverty-explained). It can offer crucial support for education, healthcare, and housing, which are vital for breaking the cycle of poverty and enabling upward mobility (https://fee.org/articles/does-welfare-diminish-poverty/)4 (https://www.nationalacademies.org/news/2023/09/new-report-identifies-policies-to-reduce-intergenerational-poverty-in-the-u-s).
It’s important to consider the broader context and the specific needs of tangata whenua. Effective social welfare programs should be designed to empower individuals, promote self-sufficiency, and respect cultural values. This might include incorporating community-led initiatives and providing opportunities for education and employment that align with the aspirations of tangata whenua.
What are your thoughts on how social welfare can be improved to better support communities?

Well then Chat GPT is a load of SH*T too. If you are too lazy to formulate your own argument I won't bother reading an artificial one.

Chat GPT comes to a conclusion. I disagree with that conclusion. AI also seem to have a very narrow definition of tangata whenua. Everyone born in NZ, white, black, brown or yellow is tangata whenua.

[Bjauck]

Well then Chat GPT is a load of SH*T too. If you are too lazy to formulate your own argument I won't bother reading an artificial one.

Chat GPT comes to a conclusion. I disagree with that conclusion. AI also seem to have a very narrow definition of tangata whenua. Everyone born in NZ, white, black, brown or yellow is tangata whenua. LOL. You copied Alan Duff’s argument.

Anyway, so to be clear, are you saying immigrants and their descendants to NZ have subsumed any special cultural connection that Maori may have had to their ancestral land? As a corollary, do you think that immigrant communities lose any cultural connection to their ancestral home/mother country?

[blackcap]

LOL. You copied Alan Duff’s argument.

Anyway, so to be clear, are you saying immigrants and their descendants to NZ have subsumed any special cultural connection that Maori may have had to their ancestral land? As a corollary, do you think that immigrant communities lose any cultural connection to their ancestral home/mother country?

Yes people born here have just as much cultural connection to the land as Maori born here.

Remembering that Maori were not here originally either.

[Bjauck]

Yes people born here have just as much cultural connection to the land as Maori born here.

Remembering that Maori were not here originally either.
You did not answer my second question - do you think that immigrant communities lose any cultural connection to their ancestral home/mother country?

Not even the Imperial British tried to push a “terra nullius” claim! For this argument’s sake, it sounds like you believe in a cultural melting pot. I think however reality is different.

[blackcap]

You did not answer my second question - do you think that immigrant communities lose any cultural connection to their ancestral home/mother country?

Not even the Imperial British tried to push a “terra nullius” claim! For this argument’s sake, it sounds like you believe in a cultural melting pot. I think however reality is different.

No I don't believe in a cultural melting pot. In my opinion, multiculturalism is an oxymoron.

I guess, I don't think those born here are tangata whenua, but nor are Maori born here. It's a difficult issue, and every peoples or culture have in the past been colonisers of some form.

I don't agree with unfettered immigration either. I don't mind immigration if immigrants adopt the new culture of their host country.

As Andrew Tate said the other day, is a black person born in China, Chineese?

[Daytr]

No I don't believe in a cultural melting pot. In my opinion, multiculturalism is an oxymoron.

I guess, I don't think those born here are tangata whenua, but nor are Maori born here. It's a difficult issue, and every peoples or culture have in the past been colonisers of some form.

I don't agree with unfettered immigration either. I don't mind immigration if immigrants adopt the new culture of their host country.

As Andrew Tate said the other day, is a black person born in China, Chineese?

What is the NZ culture?
Christian?
English?
Rugby, racing & beer
Māori culture?
Or is it multiculturalism and everyone just gets on with each other and respects each other's culture?

[blackcap]

What is the NZ culture?
Christian?
English?
Rugby, racing & beer
Māori culture?
Or is it multiculturalism and everyone just gets on with each other and respects each other's culture?

It's not rugby racing and beer, but if you look at what was essentially Kiwi, that has changed dramatically over the last 30 years.

Immigration is not the problem either, however it is when it is unfettered and too fast. This does not allow the adoption of the host country culture.

But the issue I have with this push for multiculturalism, is that the end result is that cultures all over the place will be destroyed and you will end up with a homogonous global culture. Quite sickening really. Thankfully there are countries out there that have Nationalist tendencies and ideologies and they will end up maintaining their cultures. Japan, China, Hungary (maybe) etc spring to mind.

But I realise I have gone well off topic so will shut up on this now.

[Getty]

Well then Chat GPT is a load of SH*T too. If you are too lazy to formulate your own argument I won't bother reading an artificial one.
.
Well said.

I noticed the threads are increasingly filling up with long winded psycho babble, and now l know why.

If they had to type all that palaver, rather than transfer what Al says, there would be less of it.

Where are we going?

Mindless Morons?

Keep it real!

I want to read what posters know and think, not their damn computer.

*****
Getty say panel beaters should be called dentists.

[tim23]

It's a nice story about landlords providing much needed accommodation, but the reality is they buy existing housing. They rarely provide more housing, or new housing. They also push up prices so home buyers are locked out of the housing market. And they are not doing it out of the goodness of their heart, but for their own self-interest as an investment. And they don’t provide much needed accommodation because if there is scarcity their return on investment increases.
Right on - so many drongos seem to think that landlord ownership creates houses- the rationale is strange at best.

[tim23]

This is stereotyping moka. I have rentals and have long term (many years) tenants that pay rents at the lower end of the market price year after year for good and well maintained houses. I benefit from reliable long term tenants that look after the houses, reducing my maintenance costs.
I recently decided to sell one house but after a tearful conversation with our great tenant, we decided not to sell at this time. She sure appreciated it.

Yes I am looking after my self interest and it is part of my long term investment portfolio, but my tenants also benefit from it. It is a win win situation.
But if you had sold the house it doesn’t change the supply of housing stock does it?

[tim23]

Not sanctimonious just talking my book as a poor person.

Also you did not answer my question.

Is the 2.3billion accommodation allowance a gift to landlords? What other industry gets that sort of TAXPAYER support. Or should we view housing as something different from other businesses?

Is targeted inflation a gift to landlords particularly heavily leveraged landlords?

I would be surprised to get an answer from you regarding my questions, just more ranting on some topic unrelated to my questions.

You have got a good seat on your hobby horse, stay on it.
Balance didn’t address my post about the redundant person because Balance was backed into a corner so replying didn’t suit.

[Bjauck]

blackcap: It's not rugby racing and beer, but if you look at what was essentially Kiwi, that has changed dramatically over the last 30 years.
All cultures evolve.

Immigration is not the problem either, however it is when it is unfettered and too fast. This does not allow the adoption of the host country culture.
The issue I think is that the host country must ensure affordable accommodation, infrastructure and services are developed at the same time as the immigration. Otherwise resentment occurs. Immigration works best when it alleviates labour shortages and adds skills for the benefit of all. Multiculturalism can enrich too.

But the issue I have with this push for multiculturalism, is that the end result is that cultures all over the place will be destroyed and you will end up with a homogonous global culture. Quite sickening really. Thankfully there are countries out there that have Nationalist tendencies and ideologies and they will end up maintaining their cultures. Japan, China, Hungary (maybe) etc spring to mind.
I think multiculturalism will delay a homogenous culture. Increased communication and interaction will see more convergence, even for Amazonian tribes.

Japan’s culture has evolved tremendously in the last 100 years. No culture is static.

But I realise I have gone well off topic so will shut up on this now. Up to you. It is always interesting to exchange ideas. It is relevant to this thread insofar as this Government has quite a different cultural interpretation and impetus compared to the previous.

[Panda-NZ-]

But if you had sold the house it doesn’t change the supply of housing stock does it?

They're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. Not to get rich quick by flicking it to another investor. That's why it's tax free ;)

The sallies: property investor edition.

[Panda-NZ-]

Now luxon wants bipartisan agreement for his projects after scrapping:

Three Waters
Lake Onslow
Light Rail
Ferry Upgrade

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350380539/luxon-wants-bipartisan-agreement-over-major-infrastructure-projects

How about lux accept two of the above projects and labour can accept two of his awesome road projects. :)

[iceman]

But if you had sold the house it doesn’t change the supply of housing stock does it?

Of course it doesn't. But if there were no rentals, my tenants would be in deep ****.

[moka]

Yes people born here have just as much cultural connection to the land as Maori born here.

Remembering that Maori were not here originally either. If we look at culture rather than people there are some huge differences between Maori culture and Western culture regarding land.

Māori culture emphasizes a deep and intimate connection between people and the land. This relationship is fundamental to Māori identity, wellbeing, and worldview.
Māori see themselves as tangata whenua, which literally means "people of the land". This concept expresses that humans and the land are viewed as one, with people not being superior to nature. The natural world is believed to be able to communicate with and impart knowledge to humans.
The connection to land is integral to Māori identity. The land is seen as essential for holistic wellbeing. Māori culture emphasizes a responsibility towards the land.

Western culture generally views the connection to land quite differently from many Indigenous cultures:



Ownership and exploitation: In Western culture, land is often seen as a resource to be owned, developed, and exploited for economic gain. There is typically a focus on extracting value from the land through activities like agriculture, mining, or real estate development.
Individual property rights: Western views emphasize private property rights and the ability of individuals to buy, sell, and use land as they see fit within legal boundaries.
Separation from nature: Western worldviews tend to see humans as separate from nature, rather than intrinsically connected to it. This can lead to a more utilitarian approach to land use.
Scientific perspective: Western culture often approaches land management from a scientific, evidence-based standpoint rather than a spiritual or ancestral one.
Future-oriented: There is usually more focus on future development and progress rather than maintaining traditional connections to the land.
Compartmentalization: Western views tend to compartmentalize land into distinct categories (e.g. residential, agricultural, industrial) rather than seeing it holistically.
Economic value: Land is frequently valued primarily for its economic potential rather than its cultural or spiritual significance.
Less emphasis on stewardship: While conservation movements exist, there is generally less emphasis on humans as stewards or caretakers of the land compared to many Indigenous worldviews.

This contrasts with many Indigenous perspectives that view land as sacred, emphasize spiritual connections, focus on stewardship, and see humans as part of nature rather than separate from it

[moka]

A bit like the 14 levels of management in NZ Health that isn't.
Just tell the truth!The list of 14 layers provided by Reti's office includes:


Chairperson and Board
CE (Chief Executive)
Chief of Staff
National Director Hospital and Specialist Services
Regional Director Hospital and Specialist Services
Group Director Operations
General Manager
Service Manager
Manager
Assistant Manager
Team Leader
Team Supervisor
Team Member (doctor or nurse)
Patient

Controversies and Clarifications
Inclusion of non-management roles: The list includes the patient and the "team member" (doctor or nurse) as part of the management layers, which has been criticized as misleading.
Actual layers between CEO and patient: If we consider only the layers between the CEO and the patient, as Luxon and Reti initially claimed, the chart shows only 10 layers, not 14.
Criticism from opposition: Labour's Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall suggested that the chart seemed "concocted" to support the Prime Minister's earlier statement.

[moka]

As Andrew Tate said the other day, is a black person born in China, Chineese?The English language is lacking nuance when it comes to issues of identity e.g. is he talking about nationality or ethnicity. Similarly sex and gender and the whole “what is a woman” issue.

A person may identify as ethnic Chinese but also identify as a New Zealander because they were born in NZ.

In the case of China specifically:

Chinese nationality law primarily follows the principle of jus sanguinis (right of blood). This means citizenship is typically determined by having at least one parent who is a Chinese citizen, rather than by place of birth.
China does not automatically grant citizenship to children born within its borders to non-Chinese parents.
Ethnicity in China is a complex topic, with the government officially recognizing 56 ethnic groups, including the majority Han Chinese and 55 ethnic minorities.

[moka]

Interesting to see that Andrew Tate’s message of misogyny is being viewed as radicalisation and terrorism by the police in the UK. I have long believed that domestic violence and misogyny is a form of terrorism.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64125045
(https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64125045)
Who is Andrew Tate? The self-proclaimed misogynist influencer
Andrew Tate has been singled out for the effect he has had in spreading misogyny online among boys and young men by authorities in the UK.

Speaking at the launch of a report into violence against women and girls in July 2024, Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blyth said: "We know that some of this is also linked to radicalisation of young people online, we know the influencers, Andrew Tate, the element of influencing of particularly boys, is quite terrifying."

The report stated that police were now working with counter-terrorism teams to combat the risks of young men being radicalised.
Numerous social media platforms, including YouTube, Facebook, Instagram and TikTok, have banned him - with the latter saying that "misogyny is a hateful ideology that is not tolerated".

[Bjauck]

Well said.

I noticed the threads are increasingly filling up with long winded psycho babble, and now l know why.

If they had to type all that palaver, rather than transfer what Al says, there would be less of it.

Where are we going?

Mindless Morons?

Keep it real!

I want to read what posters know and think, not their damn computer.

*****
Getty say panel beaters should be called dentists.
What is wrong with quoting from other sources, including AI responses or encyclopaediae, provided the sources are clearly identified and a link provided if available?

Also English has expanded and changed since Samuel Johnson’s lexicon…

An article on quotations, fair use and copyrighted material.
https://janefriedman.com/sample-permission-letter/

[tim23]

Of course it doesn't. But if there were no rentals, my tenants would be in deep ****.

That makes no sense at all.

[iceman]

That makes no sense at all.

It makes no sense that you advocate for no private landlords.

[tim23]

It makes no sense that you advocate for no private landlords.

You owning a house makes no difference to the supply - if you sell it to a first home buyer then the house that they occupied comes available and on it goes. Don’t put words in my mouth about landlords either.

[iceman]

You owning a house makes no difference to the supply - if you sell it to a first home buyer then the house that they occupied comes available and on it goes. Don’t put words in my mouth about landlords either.

If it was only that simple. But of course it is not.

[Panda-NZ-]

30 years of giving transfers (accommodation supplement) and sizable tax benefits directly to landlords and Auckland now has higher rents than Australia.

It hasn't worked.

[dobby41]

Of course it doesn't. But if there were no rentals, my tenants would be in deep ****.

Maybe they would own the ex-rentals?

There will always be a need for some rentals for transient and young people etc but we have gone further than that.
We changed houses from being for housing to being a capital gain play - the greater fool theory.

[dobby41]

If it was only that simple. But of course it is not.

But it actually is that simple.

[Balance]

So where do the thousands of apartments for rentals in Auckland city come from?

According to the ignoramus posters here, they were all already in existence before the landlords/investors bought them and rented them out.

So much garbage written by so few!

[jonu]

Maybe they would own the ex-rentals?

There will always be a need for some rentals for transient and young people etc but we have gone further than that.
We changed houses from being for housing to being a capital gain play - the greater fool theory.

Aren't you a self-described "large scale landlord" dobby41?

[Panda-NZ-]

Aren't you a self-described "large scale landlord" dobby41?

Following our PM's example then. What else is there in NZ?

[moka]

While in Sydney Luxon laughed off any suggestion he was issuing the Reserve Bank direction, in breach of its staunch independence.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/pm-christopher-luxon-goes-off-foreign-affairs-script-ocr-cuts-raygun/ar-AA1oShkO
(https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/pm-christopher-luxon-goes-off-foreign-affairs-script-ocr-cuts-raygun/ar-AA1oShkO)
In keeping with the theme of most of his day, Luxon weighed into the debate around infrastructure and the cost of capital.
“We’ve had our first Reserve Bank cut (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/ocr-decision-will-the-reserve-bank-cut-the-interest-rate/5WJ5O4MD45HF3AJW2KTLZTZORM/), which is fantastic and helps us get interest rates down and we’ll probably get another two cuts before Christmas.”
Speaking to reporters after the speech, he laughed off any suggestion he was issuing the Reserve Bank direction, in breach of its staunch independence.
“What I’m reflecting is our hope that there will be some further movement on interest rates,” he said, adding that the market is pricing further OCR reductions.

[Balance]

While in Sydney Luxon laughed off any suggestion he was issuing the Reserve Bank direction, in breach of its staunch independence.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/pm-christopher-luxon-goes-off-foreign-affairs-script-ocr-cuts-raygun/ar-AA1oShkO
(https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/pm-christopher-luxon-goes-off-foreign-affairs-script-ocr-cuts-raygun/ar-AA1oShkO)
In keeping with the theme of most of his day, Luxon weighed into the debate around infrastructure and the cost of capital.
“We’ve had our first Reserve Bank cut (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/ocr-decision-will-the-reserve-bank-cut-the-interest-rate/5WJ5O4MD45HF3AJW2KTLZTZORM/), which is fantastic and helps us get interest rates down and we’ll probably get another two cuts before Christmas.”
Speaking to reporters after the speech, he laughed off any suggestion he was issuing the Reserve Bank direction, in breach of its staunch independence.
“What I’m reflecting is our hope that there will be some further movement on interest rates,” he said, adding that the market is pricing further OCR reductions.

And Adrian Orr with his mythical Maori financial system has been an independent RBNZ governor? Same Orr who danced in tandem with Robertson and Ardern to fxxk up NZ?

LOL - RBNZ & Orr staunch independence? Kiss my arse - twice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



The great crime out of Adrian Orr's move is you can't trust him.

A central bank is supposed to get the economy and he and his committee clearly don’t.

Don’t get me wrong - what he did was the right thing. A lot of people think it was the right thing.

But he is supposed to land it softly and he crashed it. Having crashed it, he still denied he crashed it until it clearly became so bleeding obvious that he did what he did yesterday.

The cuts that weren't coming until next year are here now. You only do what he did because you overcooked it in the first place.

Brad Olsen of Infometrics was wrong, but he was wrong for the right reasons. He said heads should roll and on that he is spot on.

You don’t run a commentary that says one thing then do another. Their defence will be "things change", but that has always been the Orr weak point. He likes to position himself as some sort of completely removed observer, devoid of any influence in the economy at all.

"Things have come to a grinding halt? How did that happen?"

Last time he talked he saw one thing and told us how it was going to play out. He was wrong.

But to the Olsen point, and indeed my point, was - aren't we supposed to believe him?

When non-tradeable inflation is 5.4%, is that the same as 0-3%? No, it isn't.

When unemployment is 4.6% and not 5.5%, has that metric fallen to where it is supposed to have? No, it hasn’t.

But that doesn’t matter now, apparently.

"Forget everything I said, I've decided to cut." That's how the Governor plays it.

The inescapable truth is he cocked it up. He tried to right it, overcorrected, pretended he didn’t until it was too late, the rhetoric didn’t match the reality, and we got to yesterday.

The result? We'll take it.

The quality of the journey? Bollocks.

[Bjauck]

The NZ Home ownership rate is now below 60%. Will the interest rate changes boost that rate - eventually - or, with the favourable tax regime, just end up boosting those who own multiple homes?

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/07/22/home-ownership-rates-fall-below-60-report/

[Panda-NZ-]

The NZ Home ownership rate is now below 60%. Will the interest rate changes boost that rate - eventually - or, with the favourable tax regime, just end up boosting those who own multiple homes?

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/07/22/home-ownership-rates-fall-below-60-report/

Luxon said little about improving the housing situation. Even what he did say during the election about consents isn't recieving much priority this year. There is the granny flat stuff I suppose. Maybe his trip to Australia will provide some inspiration around adding density while improving quality in NZ through better building standards.

Deregulation of zoning but re-regulation around building quality and standards. Maybe he just wants to do nothing as that's what his workshy govt have done so far other than the 20 bucks and claiming credit for things.

[ynot]

Luxon said little about improving the housing situation. Even what he did say during the election about consents isn't recieving much priority this year. There is the granny flat stuff I suppose. Maybe his trip to Australia will provide some inspiration around adding density while improving quality in NZ through better building standards.

Deregulation of zoning but re-regulation around building quality and standards. Maybe he just wants to do nothing as that's what his workshy govt have done so far other than the 20 bucks and claiming credit for things.

I would not call a major o'haul of Labour's catastrophic machinations as doing nothing. Just the opposite in fact. Dead wood culling for starters.

[tim23]

I would not call a major o'haul of Labour's catastrophic machinations as doing nothing. Just the opposite in fact. Dead wood culling for starters.

Cool your jets - Luxon gave back a perk for landlords quick smart.

[tim23]

And Adrian Orr with his mythical Maori financial system has been an independent RBNZ governor? Same Orr who danced in tandem with Robertson and Ardern to fxxk up NZ?

LOL - RBNZ & Orr staunch independence? Kiss my arse - twice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



The great crime out of Adrian Orr's move is you can't trust him.

A central bank is supposed to get the economy and he and his committee clearly don’t.

Don’t get me wrong - what he did was the right thing. A lot of people think it was the right thing.

But he is supposed to land it softly and he crashed it. Having crashed it, he still denied he crashed it until it clearly became so bleeding obvious that he did what he did yesterday.

The cuts that weren't coming until next year are here now. You only do what he did because you overcooked it in the first place.

Brad Olsen of Infometrics was wrong, but he was wrong for the right reasons. He said heads should roll and on that he is spot on.

You don’t run a commentary that says one thing then do another. Their defence will be "things change", but that has always been the Orr weak point. He likes to position himself as some sort of completely removed observer, devoid of any influence in the economy at all.

"Things have come to a grinding halt? How did that happen?"

Last time he talked he saw one thing and told us how it was going to play out. He was wrong.

But to the Olsen point, and indeed my point, was - aren't we supposed to believe him?

When non-tradeable inflation is 5.4%, is that the same as 0-3%? No, it isn't.

When unemployment is 4.6% and not 5.5%, has that metric fallen to where it is supposed to have? No, it hasn’t.

But that doesn’t matter now, apparently.

"Forget everything I said, I've decided to cut." That's how the Governor plays it.

The inescapable truth is he cocked it up. He tried to right it, overcorrected, pretended he didn’t until it was too late, the rhetoric didn’t match the reality, and we got to yesterday.

The result? We'll take it.

The quality of the journey? Bollocks.
I see you are back - conveniently forgotten my note about the redundant person having to be apply for welfare. Of course in your book (which no one would read) all receipts of welfare bludgers.

[Panda-NZ-]

I would not call a major o'haul of Labour's catastrophic machinations as doing nothing. Just the opposite in fact. Dead wood culling for starters.

What did you spend your 20 bucks on? Or 2 bucks if you're a pensioner.

That's where all their "savings" went.

[Balance]

I see you are back - conveniently forgotten my note about the redundant person having to be apply for welfare. Of course in your book (which no one would read) all receipts of welfare bludgers.

Ignoring your stupid question - that’s what I am doing. Only a moron would equate a person (made redundant) receiving welfare benefits like jobseeker benefit, accommodation supplement etc to tide them over until they get a job with the parasites and losers who choose to be on welfare as a lifestyle choice. And an even bigger moron when the government is criticised for requiring the redundant person to do everything required to get the next job - like attending interviews, upskilling courses and job training.

[Balance]

Cool your jets - Luxon gave back a perk for landlords quick smart.

Reversing the envy tax by Labour is exactly what any decent government which wants to lift the aspiration of the country must do.

Just as reversing Ardern’s dumb energy exploration moratorium. Dumb *itch.

[ynot]

Ignoring your stupid question - that’s what I am doing. Only a moron would equate a person (made redundant) receiving welfare benefits like jobseeker benefit, accommodation supplement etc to tide them over until they get a job with the parasites and losers who choose to be on welfare as a lifestyle choice. And an even bigger moron when the government is criticised for requiring the redundant person to do everything required to get the next job - like attending interviews, upskilling courses and job training.

Lefty's just cant help themselves Balance. They expect a big fluffy mattress to follow them around everywhere. No backbones.

[tim23]

But it actually is that simple.
The other problem is our expensive housing that makes it a “dream” for lower income earners to ever own a home - it shouldn’t be a dream it certainly didn’t used to be.

[Balance]

Lefty's just cant help themselves Balance. They expect a big fluffy mattress to follow them around everywhere. No backbones.

Yup - next they will be expecting the government to screw for them and provide babies too as it’s too burdensome to be pregnant. Affects their freedom to enjoy life in welfare.

[tim23]

Lefty's just cant help themselves Balance. They expect a big fluffy mattress to follow them around everywhere. No backbones.
That’s a plain stupid generalisation but I’m hardly surprised.

[Balance]

Close to 200,000 currently on the jobseeker benefit, with over 100,000 who have been on the benefit for over 12 months.

Yet, NZ has had to bring in over 80,000 migrants in 2023/24 because there weren’t enough workers!

And now, we have the unemployed squealing that they cannot get jobs even in hospitality because they are competing with far too many other job seekers!

WTF is going on?

[winner69]

Close to 200,000 currently on the jobseeker benefit, with over 100,000 who have been on the benefit for over 12 months.

Yet, NZ has had to bring in over 80,000 migrants in 2023/24 because there weren’t enough workers!

And now, we have the unemployed squealing that they cannot get jobs even in hospitality because they are competing with far too many other job seekers!

WTF is going on?

Last week there was net increase of 1,140 jobseekers …. over 7 days that’s ~160 per day

[Panda-NZ-]

WTF is going on?

The economy is failing.. that's whats going on.

Further shown by the 75k NZ citizens this year who have had enough and left town.

[winner69]

The economy is failing.. that's whats going on.

Further shown by the 75k NZ citizens this year who have had enough and left town.

We are not in a recession because a recession implies a hiatus between periods of economic growth. We are experiencing sustained economic decline and we seem unwilling to either discuss this fact, nor do anything about

[Daytr]

We are not in a recession because a recession implies a hiatus between periods of economic growth. We are experiencing sustained economic decline and we seem unwilling to either discuss this fact, nor do anything about

Agreed, however there are a swathe of people that have got pretty wealthy at least in NZ terms based on the current structure and they are unwilling to rock the boat.
Neo-liberalism for the last 40 years has basically been about underfunding Governments and enriching the already wealthy with privatization, keeping wages suppressed and not taxing the massive capital gains. The wage suppression thing became a bit unstuck in recent years, however I suggest we will be back to the status quo under this coalition Government.

[winner69]

Agreed, however there are a swathe of people that have got pretty wealthy at least in NZ terms based on the current structure and they are unwilling to rock the boat.
Neo-liberalism for the last 40 years has basically been about underfunding Governments and enriching the already wealthy with privatization, keeping wages suppressed and not taxing the massive capital gains. The wage suppression thing became a bit unstuck in recent years, however I suggest we will be back to the status quo under this coalition Government.

So daytr my definition of neoliberalism is spot on -

“Neo-liberalism is not an ideology, with a programme and list of demands, just a bunch of powerful people doing things in their own self interest.”

[Balance]

Last week there was net increase of 1,140 jobseekers …. over 7 days that’s ~160 per day

Exactly what the purveyors of engineering the recession in RBNZ & Adrian ‘Maori mythical financial system’ Orr ordered.

Appointed and reappointed by Ardern & Roberson to fxxk NZ over.

Got to be cruel 'to be kind'?

[Panda-NZ-]

Agreed, however there are a swathe of people that have got pretty wealthy at least in NZ terms based on the current structure and they are unwilling to rock the boat.
Neo-liberalism for the last 40 years has basically been about underfunding Governments and enriching the already wealthy with privatization, keeping wages suppressed and not taxing the massive capital gains. The wage suppression thing became a bit unstuck in recent years, however I suggest we will be back to the status quo under this coalition Government.

If they stopped importing 100k from places where anything is an improvement (even here :p), they would be forced to actually do some work to lift our productivity and low wages.

[Daytr]

If they stopped importing 100k from places where anything is an improvement (even here :p), they would be forced to actually do some work to lift our productivity and low wages.

Agreed. A little bit of immigration is OK, but it's been on steroids for years.

[dobby41]

Aren't you a self-described "large scale landlord" dobby41?

Yip, and built over 50% new so only half the problem!
Early on I was recycling existing property until I figured I wanted to help the housing solution (and with less maintenance).

[dobby41]

I see you are back - conveniently forgotten my note about the redundant person having to be apply for welfare. Of course in your book (which no one would read) all receipts of welfare bludgers.

According to Luxon they are "bottom feeders".

[dobby41]

Ignoring your stupid question - that’s what I am doing. Only a moron would equate a person (made redundant) receiving welfare benefits like jobseeker benefit, accommodation supplement etc to tide them over until they get a job with the parasites and losers who choose to be on welfare as a lifestyle choice. And an even bigger moron when the government is criticised for requiring the redundant person to do everything required to get the next job - like attending interviews, upskilling courses and job training.

Do you have any idea on how many welfare recipients are actually in the "parasites and losers who choose to be on welfare as a lifestyle choice" category?

I agree that one is one to many but is the solution worse than the problem? A sledge hammer to crack a walnut!

[dobby41]

Agreed. A little bit of immigration is OK, but it's been on steroids for years.

It has been.
Maybe if we produced more of our own population and looked after them we wouldn't need to import so many.

[Panda-NZ-]

Do you have any idea on how many welfare recipients are actually in the "parasites and losers who choose to be on welfare as a lifestyle choice" category?

It's shame that they didn't have access to $52k in pocket money for "accommodation" (no receipts or interview necessary).

[tim23]

Agreed, however there are a swathe of people that have got pretty wealthy at least in NZ terms based on the current structure and they are unwilling to rock the boat.
Neo-liberalism for the last 40 years has basically been about underfunding Governments and enriching the already wealthy with privatization, keeping wages suppressed and not taxing the massive capital gains. The wage suppression thing became a bit unstuck in recent years, however I suggest we will be back to the status quo under this coalition Government.
Trickle down theory- trouble is it’s just that - a theory not a reality.

[Panda-NZ-]

It works for those who it is intended to work for .. ;)

[Bjauck]

This government should be prioritising policies to help redirect some of the over-investment in real estate into keeping NZ companies capitalised and owned and listed in NZ. Perhaps KiwiSaver contributions directed to a local NZ fund invested in NZ could be rebated against income tax. Pension funds in other countries tend to have a rebate scheme and home country bias.

‘However it won’t be done as the vested interests lie overwhelmingly with existing real estate owners and keeping the increasing prices/constrained supply for the demand dynamic alive.

[Panda-NZ-]

There's reasons to be disillusioned with the capability of management in NZ -> FBU, RYM, AIR etc

If we invest in better companies overseas that could more than offset foreign ownership issues. Then do what you like on the regulation side to improve minimum wages, employment standards, employer contributions for kiwisaver to match the Australian rate and make them pay for it.

In a recession the USD would decrease which offers more protection for investors.

[Balance]

This government should be prioritising policies to help redirect some of the over-investment in real estate into keeping NZ companies capitalised and owned and listed in NZ. Perhaps KiwiSaver contributions directed to a local NZ fund invested in NZ could be rebated against income tax. Pension funds in other countries tend to have a rebate scheme and home country bias.

‘However it won’t be done as the vested interests lie overwhelmingly with existing real estate owners and keeping the increasing prices/constrained supply for the demand dynamic alive.

Do what Singapore does with public housing - problem solved.

Simple.

[Balance]

Do you have any idea on how many welfare recipients are actually in the "parasites and losers who choose to be on welfare as a lifestyle choice" category?

I agree that one is one to many but is the solution worse than the problem? A sledge hammer to crack a walnut!

Do you?

And why is using a traffic light system to require beneficiaries to live up to certain requirements and responsibilities a sledge hammer? Anyone who works for a living have to fulfill certain obligations and requirements to receive their pay.

Are beneficiaries so privileged and entitled now in wokeland that they are untouchables? They simply need to put out their hands and be entitled to handouts with no obligations or scrutiny? And in the cases of solo mums with multiple children with multiple fathers, simply screw around, have babies and the state will provide?

Fxxk that for a bloody joke.

[Bjauck]

There's reasons to be disillusioned with the capability of management locally -> FBU, RYM, AIR etc

If we invest in better companies overseas that could more than offset foreign ownership issues. Then do what you like on the regulation side to improve minimum wages, employment standards, employer contributions for kiwisaver to match the Australian rate and make them pay for it.

In a recession the USD would decrease which offers more protection.There are also some well run NZ businesses (IFT, FPH, MFT, SUM), and companies which have ended up being taken over and or relocating overseas. A greater NZ based shareholder base and access to capital to expand may mean fewer off-shore relocations. A greater depth of NZ based companies may mean more talent for NZ companies.

Anyway rebating the tax deducted before the KiwiSaver contributions are made, whether it ends up in good overseas companies or supporting local companies, would be a step to even up the attraction of KiwiSaver compared with the leveraged tax free capital gains from investor real estate.

[Panda-NZ-]

Mexican company Finaccess capital bought RBD for $9.45 per share ($3 today) so sometimes it doesn't work well for them.

Buying into power companies, ports and other infrastructure is a real concern though, in theory we could regulate on price and other areas of interest. That may cause some diplomatic and trade tensions though.

[iceman]

Maybe they would own the ex-rentals?

There will always be a need for some rentals for transient and young people etc but we have gone further than that.
We changed houses from being for housing to being a capital gain play - the greater fool theory.

No they wouldn't. There is and always will be a big demand for private rentals but some of you don't seem to accept that.Not everybody can or want to own property, temporarily or permanently, but everyone wants a home.

[Panda-NZ-]

It's a shame Luxon couldn't showcase his skills to get infrastructure back on track. Deliver them earlier, at a lower cost for taxpayers. Dazzle us with delivery. ;)

Scrapped projects:

Pumped hydro
Light rail
Ferry Upgrade
Improved Water infrastructure

[ynot]

It's a shame Luxon couldn't showcase his skills to get infrastructure back on track. Deliver them earlier, at a lower cost for taxpayers. Dazzle us with delivery. ;)

Scrapped projects:

Pumped hydro
Light rail
Ferry Upgrade
Improved Water infrastructure

It's a shame Labour wasted 6 valuable years running our country into the ground. If we get back to where we were before they arrived in a similar time frame we will be doing well.

[Bjauck]

It's a shame Labour wasted 6 valuable years running our country into the ground. If we get back to where we were before they arrived in a similar time frame we will be doing well.
Have you read the 2024 OECD report on NZ?

Real GDP growth since 2019 for NZ is significantly higher than the average for the OECD. The economy bounced back quickly following Covid.

PDF link
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/603809f2-en.pdf?expires=1724039819&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D98CDC01B4C73D1D0909C4CF7252EF4B

[dobby41]

No they wouldn't. There is and always will be a big demand for private rentals but some of you don't seem to accept that.Not everybody can or want to own property, temporarily or permanently, but everyone wants a home.

There has always been a demand for rentals but it is getting bigger - ie home ownership is reducing but not by choice.
Our system of housing, particularly it being insecure, causes a lot of social ills to the detriment of society as a whole.
What we are doing now and continue to do isn't really working very well.
Many other countries seem to support multi-generational renting.

[dobby41]

Ferry upgrades - it is going to be very interesting to see where they get to on that.
They have already blown nearly a billion and will have to pay more for new ships than what was contracted.

If they aren't rail enabled then costs for transport will balloon with transferring containers from rail to truck and back. The alternative is hundreds more trucks on our roads that struggle to cope with what they have.
Not to mention that rail is more carbon-friendly than trucking so we will struggle harder to meet our global warming targets.

A very short-term view from Willis et al.

[tim23]

No they wouldn't. There is and always will be a big demand for private rentals but some of you don't seem to accept that.Not everybody can or want to own property, temporarily or permanently, but everyone wants a home.
My point - lots want to own but never can because the “dream” of owning a home evaporated and that’s sad. 😔

[tim23]

It's a shame Labour wasted 6 valuable years running our country into the ground. If we get back to where we were before they arrived in a similar time frame we will be doing well.
Well they had a Pandemic to deal with or have you forgotten that?

[Logen Ninefingers]

The Left still think money grows on trees and no amount of reasoning with them is going to change that.
‘Neoliberalism’ hasn’t caused the massive house price increases in New Zealand, it has been decades of central bank unorthodox monetary policy. Adrian Orr isn’t a ‘neoliberal’ and whoever says he is is insane. The Reserve Bank capped off an era of ultra low interest rates with an OCR setting of 0.25% during the Covid pandemic, delivering windfall gains to asset owners. So nothing to do with ‘neoliberalism’. The Lefts utter obsession with ‘neoliberalism’ (less regulation / smaller government) and ‘trickle down’ is a form of collective madness, they must mention these two things every 5 minutes it seems. They act like there were never rich people before this term ‘neoliberalism’ was coined: there have been wealthy people for thousands of years of human history; the man who grew extra grain and sold it at a profit was the worlds first entrepreneur. The man who grew less grain and attacked his neighbour out of envy was the world’s first communist.
‘Trickle down’ should simply mean than a more affluent society will have higher living standards than a poorer one. This should be self evident, but the Left deliberately pervert or misconstrue something that should be pretty simple to understand. They try and make out that ‘trickle down’ was about everyone being rich. It was never about that. The Scandinavian countries are demonstrably more affluent than a country like New Zealand, and consequently they have better standards if living & can fund more and better social programmes to benefit their citizens. They dopey Leftists say “this is socialism working”, when it actual fact it is the purest example of ‘trickle down’ available; it is quite clearly ‘capitalism’ working!!!!! Again, an affluent society - a productive, industrious, innovative economy - will support higher living standards for the whole society. New Zealand has been infected with Leftist sloth and defeatism, the attitude here is that business people are at least ‘selfish’ and at worst ‘evil’, commerce is something to steer clear of, and the aim of every young New Zealander should be to spend their lives railing against ‘man made climate change’ or engaged in a career in academia to pontificate upon the evils of colonialism. While other countries get ahead through their industry and social cohesion, New Zealand seems set on becoming a wasteland of woke, broke, deadbeat wastrels.

[Panda-NZ-]

That's quite an essay you have there.

Still we have been influenced by a certain philosophy for decades non-stop.

Where is the dividend of that? Where is the high wages and high-tech industries.
Competition would bring lower prices. Where's that ? Sign me up for low electricity and food prices due to the competition.

[Panda-NZ-]

Interestingly on wikipedia only NZ seems to be classed as a free market economy.

NZ = free market.
AU = mixed.
US = mixed.
Singapore = mixed with "digirism".. oh dear, lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_Zealand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore

[Balance]

The Left still think money grows on trees and no amount of reasoning with them is going to change that.
‘Neoliberalism’ hasn’t caused the massive house price increases in New Zealand, it has been decades of central bank unorthodox monetary policy. Adrian Orr isn’t a ‘neoliberal’ and whoever says he is is insane. The Reserve Bank capped off an era of ultra low interest rates with an OCR setting of 0.25% during the Covid pandemic, delivering windfall gains to asset owners. So nothing to do with ‘neoliberalism’. The Lefts utter obsession with ‘neoliberalism’ (less regulation / smaller government) and ‘trickle down’ is a form of collective madness, they must mention these two things every 5 minutes it seems. They act like there were never rich people before this term ‘neoliberalism’ was coined: there have been wealthy people for thousands of years of human history; the man who grew extra grain and sold it at a profit was the worlds first entrepreneur. The man who grew less grain and attacked his neighbour out of envy was the world’s first communist.
‘Trickle down’ should simply mean than a more affluent society will have higher living standards than a poorer one. This should be self evident, but the Left deliberately pervert or misconstrue something that should be pretty simple to understand. They try and make out that ‘trickle down’ was about everyone being rich. It was never about that. The Scandinavian countries are demonstrably more affluent than a country like New Zealand, and consequently they have better standards if living & can fund more and better social programmes to benefit their citizens. They dopey Leftists say “this is socialism working”, when it actual fact it is the purest example of ‘trickle down’ available; it is quite clearly ‘capitalism’ working!!!!! Again, an affluent society - a productive, industrious, innovative economy - will support higher living standards for the whole society. New Zealand has been infected with Leftist sloth and defeatism, the attitude here is that business people are at least ‘selfish’ and at worst ‘evil’, commerce is something to steer clear of, and the aim of every young New Zealander should be to spend their lives railing against ‘man made climate change’ or engaged in a career in academia to pontificate upon the evils of colonialism. While other countries get ahead through their industry and social cohesion, New Zealand seems set on becoming a wasteland of woke, broke, deadbeat wastrels.

Yup - the left with their politics of envy & hate. Nothing progressive about their policies - it’s all about take and destroy.

[Getty]

Lux working up a lather, taking his preferred
PM public support from 23% to 28% in latest TV1 poll.

*****
Getty say to paint pitcher, you must use water colours

[Panda-NZ-]

That's what 20 bucks will do for ya. :)

Stapled to those blue leaflets saying something about "back on track".

[ynot]

That's what 20 bucks will do for ya.

Stapled to those blue leaflets saying something about "back on track".

So bitter Panda.

Alternatively you could say that's what happens when a government focuses on implementing and applying a strategy to dig us out of the dodo the hapless left govt created.

[Panda-NZ-]

Well, they came in on July 31.

[moka]

So daytr my definition of neoliberalism is spot on -

“Neo-liberalism is not an ideology, with a programme and list of demands, just a bunch of powerful people doing things in their own self interest.”I disagree Neoliberalism is very much an ideology.

Neoliberalism is an economic and political ideology that emphasizes free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduced government intervention in the economy.

Neoliberalism emerged in the 1930s as a response to the perceived threats of collectivism, socialism, and extensive state intervention in the economy. It developed as a defense of Western liberal values, especially individual freedom, in reaction to the rise of fascism and communism.

Key Proponents and Events


The 1938 Walter Lippmann Colloquium in Paris is considered an important early moment in neoliberal thought.
The Mont Pèlerin Society, founded in 1947 by Friedrich Hayek and others, played a crucial role in developing and promoting neoliberal ideas.
Influential thinkers included Friedrich Hayek, Milton Friedman, and James Buchanan.

Ideological Development
Neoliberalism evolved from its early roots to become a more comprehensive political and economic philosophy:


It combined classical liberal political theory with neoclassical economic theories.
It advocated for free markets, deregulation, and limited government intervention while still supporting some role for the state in providing basic public goods.

Neoliberalism gained significant influence in the 1970s and 1980s:


It became the basis for policy regimes under leaders like Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.
International institutions like the World Bank and IMF adopted neoliberal principles.

Neoliberalism has been associated with shifts in power:


It has been credited with reducing state interventions in economic and social activities.
Critics argue it has led to increased social inequalities and benefited dominant classes in both developed and developing countries.

This historical trajectory shows how neoliberalism developed from a reaction to collectivism into a dominant global ideology that reshaped economic and political systems in many parts of the world.

[Panda-NZ-]

NZers dropped christianity and picked up another religion. :p

Though maybe not given how many young people live overseas.

[moka]

The Lefts utter obsession with ‘neoliberalism’ (less regulation / smaller government) and ‘trickle down’ is a form of collective madness, they must mention these two things every 5 minutes it seems. Neoliberalism is generally considered a policy of the right, not the left. Here are the key points to understand:
Neoliberalism advocates for:


Free market capitalism
Deregulation of the economy
Privatization of state-owned enterprises
Reduction in government spending, especially on social programs

Lower taxes, particularly for businesses and high-income individuals

These economic policies align more closely with right-wing or conservative ideologies.
Historical Context
Neoliberalism is often associated with:


Ronald Reagan's presidency in the United States
Margaret Thatcher's tenure as Prime Minister in the United Kingdom

Both Reagan and Thatcher were conservative leaders who implemented neoliberal economic policies in the 1980s.

Contrast with Leftist Ideologies
Neoliberalism differs significantly from leftist economic philosophies:


Leftists typically support more government intervention in the economy
They advocate for stronger regulations on businesses
Leftist policies often aim to redistribute wealth and reduce economic inequality
Many leftists oppose privatization and support public ownership of key industries

Political Spectrum
While neoliberalism incorporates some classically liberal ideas about individual rights and freedoms, its economic policies place it firmly on the right side of the political spectrum in most contexts.

[moka]

Interestingly on wikipedia only NZ seems to be classed as a free market economy.

NZ = free market.
AU = mixed.
US = mixed.
Singapore = mixed with "digirism".. oh dear, lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_Zealand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_SingaporeWhy is Singapore so successful? One reason is because the state plays a strong role in contrast to neoliberal policies which advocate for less government.

Dirigisme or dirigism (from French diriger 'to direct') is an economic doctrine in which the state plays a strong directive (policies) role, contrary to a merely regulatory or non-interventionist role, over a market economy.
As an economic doctrine, dirigisme is the opposite of laissez-faire, stressing a positive role for state intervention in curbing productive inefficiencies and market failures.
Dirigiste policies often include indicative planning, state-directed investment, and the use of market instruments (taxes and subsidies) to incentivize market entities to fulfill state economic objectives.

[davflaws]

Have you read the 2024 OECD report on NZ?

Real GDP growth since 2019 for NZ is significantly higher than the average for the OECD. The economy bounced back quickly following Covid.

PDF link
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/603809f2-en.pdf?expires=1724039819&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D98CDC01B4C73D1D0909C4CF7252EF4B

ynot isn't interested in any facts that disconfirm his firmly embedded and delusional right wing beliefs.

[Panda-NZ-]

Speaking of which the economic situation has deteriorated since 2023.

When are the credit rating agencies going to come up with their updated assessments of where things stand for us. :)

[dobby41]

The Left still think money grows on trees and no amount of reasoning with them is going to change that.

And the right still thinks that we are just human resources to feed the machine - produce a profit for the capital owners.
Anything that reduces that profit is a waste and should be removed.

[dobby41]

Another occasion - wait for the correction to what Luxon says to find what he meant.

“If you think about what we are doing with respect to mathematics, when you have 88% of Māori kids at Year 8 unable to read, those are the things and the conversations that we’ve been getting into.”
88% unable to read.
It seems that he meant 88% not meeting year 8 expectations in Math.
Does he think before he speaks or does he just get too excited to open his mouth?
His office had to provide a correction.

[Panda-NZ-]

And the right still thinks that we are just human resources to feed the machine - produce a profit for the capital owners.
Anything that reduces that profit is a waste and should be removed.

One can cut down the money tree and use it's embers to pay for some things.

[dobby41]

Another occasion - wait for the correction to what Luxon says to find what he meant.

88% unable to read.
It seems that he meant 88% not meeting year 8 expectations in Math.
Does he think before he speaks or does he just get too excited to open his mouth?
His office had to provide a correction.

Of course, the actual stats he uses are bull in the first place.
You check the progress against a curriculum not yet taught and report the result when many others say that the situation hasn't changed, for better or worse, for years.
In short - create a false crisis.

[dobby41]

Another occasion - wait for the correction to what Luxon says to find what he meant.

88% unable to read.
It seems that he meant 88% not meeting year 8 expectations in Math.
Does he think before he speaks or does he just get too excited to open his mouth?
His office had to provide a correction.

Of course, the actual stats he uses are bull in the first place.
You check the progress against a curriculum not yet taught and report the result when many others say that the situation hasn't changed, for better or worse, for years.
In short - create a false crisis.

[Panda-NZ-]

Of course, the actual stats he uses are bull in the first place.
You check the progress against a curriculum not yet taught and report the result when many others say that the situation hasn't changed, for better or worse, for years.
In short - create a false crisis.

NZ is a country of agriculture and tourism, not engineers. What end game do they have in mind with these changes?

[Getty]

NZ is a country of agriculture and tourism, not engineers.
That's a polite way of saying we're a bunch of peasants.

*****
Getty say launder your money.
Use riverbank.

[Panda-NZ-]

Bill English once thought so.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/low-wages-a-way-of-competing/DERREGWAXDKEAOGODMKUVLIKSI/

So much demand for our stock of peasants that we'll hit 5.4% unemployment next year.

Come on we're cheap.. set up your call centres here and we'll promise to put on an Aussie accent for ya.

[dobby41]

NZ is a country of agriculture and tourism, not engineers. What end game do they have in mind with these changes?

We have produced many good engineers and scientists - they are needed.
Agriculture and tourism will struggle to create a high-wage economy.

Without decent maths people won't even be able to budget or invest properly - life gets pretty difficult.

[dobby41]

Bill English once thought so.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/low-wages-a-way-of-competing/DERREGWAXDKEAOGODMKUVLIKSI/

So much demand for our stock of peasants that we'll hit 5% unemployment next year.

Come on we're cheap.. set up your call centres here and we'll promise to put on an Aussie accent for ya.

Back in 2011 National didn't have a decent vision for NZ and they haven't changed.
Anyone else sick of Luxon running the country down all the time? It's enough to make you want to leave. :scared:

[Panda-NZ-]

We have produced many good engineers and scientists - they are needed.

They're needed elsewhere, not here. They can avoid compulsory student loan repayments by skipping town and recieve a higher wage package to boot (still I think $2k per year repayments are needed).

If the destination is Aus that's 11% super mixed in.

I have personally advised students to simply look at graduate programs in Australia unless they live with their parents to save on rent payments.

[Panda-NZ-]

Anyone else sick of Luxon running the country down all the time? It's enough to make you want to leave. :scared:

We can't do anything, except modify a tax rate or come up with a $50m surplus. Well done Luxon.

[moka]

Poll: Just 10% think Govt's policies reducing racial tensions

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/08/19/poll-just-10-think-govts-policies-reducing-racial-tensions/



In the latest 1News poll, 46% of voters said racial tensions have worsened due to the coalition's policies, 37% believed it's made no difference, and 10% said tensions have reduced.
National voters were more likely to think the Government was reducing tensions. Green and Labour supporters were more likely to say the coalition was raising them.
ACT's leader, who has led to charge on the Treaty Principles Bill, said the numbers ultimately reflected how people perceived the previous government.

[moka]

Nearly half of New Zealanders say government policies increasing racial tensions, poll finds

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/20/new-zealand-1news-verian-poll-racial-tension
(https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/20/new-zealand-1news-verian-poll-racial-tension)
The poll comes amid growing concern about the coalition government's policy direction, which some fear could jeopardize Māori rights. Since taking office last year, the right-wing coalition's policies concerning Māori have sparked:


Widespread protests
Large gatherings of Māori leaders
Criticism from the Waitangi Tribunal

Professor Lara Greaves commented that the poll reflects a significant portion of New Zealanders who believe the government's actions are fostering discord between Māori and the ruling authorities. She described it as New Zealand's version of "culture wars".
“I think this is our version of the culture wars,” Greaves said, adding that where populist politicians in the US or Europe target migrants as a problem, populists in New Zealand target Māori (https://www.theguardian.com/world/m-ori).

[Logen Ninefingers]

Yup - the left with their politics of envy & hate. Nothing progressive about their policies - it’s all about take and destroy.

The Left are running riot in this thread, posting chapter and verse about ‘neoliberalism’ as if the sheer weight of words can drown out basic reason and logic. I’ll answer their vast outpouring of posts with a few simple truths restated -

1/ Humans are by their nature competitive.
2/ ‘Neoliberalism’ simply means less regulation / less state control / less state ownership of businesses.
3/ ‘Fairness’ is impossible to define, as one persons ‘fair’ is another persons ‘unfair’.
4/ ‘Social justice’ is impossible to define, and moreover appears manifestly unjust from any rational perspective: there is nothing ‘just’ about taking from the productive, or those who staked their own capital on a venture when the eventual outcome was unknown, and giving to the indolent and the unproductive.
5/ There have demonstrably been wealthy people throughout human history, and for thousands of years before Marx came up with his bonkers theories of ‘class warfare’.
6/ ‘Trickle down’ should simply mean than a more affluent society will have higher living standards than a poorer one.
7/ The man who grew extra grain and sold it at a profit was the worlds first entrepreneur. The man who grew less grain and attacked his neighbour out of envy was the world’s first communist.
8/ There has never been a successful communist state in human history, and they have all become totalitarian.
9/ You can vote your way into socialism, but - as the people of Venezuela have discovered - you have to shoot your way out of it.
10/ Leftism is predicated on unrealistic idealism and utopian fantasies.

[tim23]

The Left are running riot in this thread, posting chapter and verse about ‘neoliberalism’ as if the sheer weight of words can drown out basic reason and logic. I’ll answer their vast outpouring of posts with a few simple truths restated -

1/ Humans are by their nature competitive.
2/ ‘Neoliberalism’ simply means less regulation / less state control / less state ownership of businesses.
3/ ‘Fairness’ is impossible to define, as one persons ‘fair’ is another persons ‘unfair’.
4/ ‘Social justice’ is impossible to define, and moreover appears manifestly unjust from any rational perspective: there is nothing ‘just’ about taking from the productive, or those who staked their own capital on a venture when the eventual outcome was unknown, and giving to the indolent and the unproductive.
5/ There have demonstrably been wealthy people throughout human history, and for thousands of years before Marx came up with his bonkers theories of ‘class warfare’.
6/ ‘Trickle down’ should simply mean than a more affluent society will have higher living standards than a poorer one.
7/ The man who grew extra grain and sold it at a profit was the worlds first entrepreneur. The man who grew less grain and attacked his neighbour out of envy was the world’s first communist.
8/ There has never been a successful communist state in human history, and they have all become totalitarian.
9/ You can vote your way into socialism, but - as the people of Venezuela have discovered - you have to shoot your way out of it.
10/ Leftism is predicated on unrealistic idealism and utopian fantasies.

I certainly don’t need a lecture from you and your 10 commandments.

[Panda-NZ-]

Sinagpore recently put in place an unemployment scheme Logen. It doesn't even follow their traditional user pays model.

So it's a prime example of redistribution.

[moka]

The Left are running riot in this thread, posting chapter and verse about ‘neoliberalism’ as if the sheer weight of words can drown out basic reason and logic. I’ll answer their vast outpouring of posts with a few simple truths restated -

4/ ‘Social justice’ is impossible to define, and moreover appears manifestly unjust from any rational perspective: there is nothing ‘just’ about taking from the productive, or those who staked their own capital on a venture when the eventual outcome was unknown, and giving to the indolent and the unproductive.

If you believe there is nothing ‘just’ about taking from the productive please explain to me how profits can be just. Because I think the productive are the workers who produce and that they are the makers. The person who staked their capital is a taker, a taker of profits. As a shareholder who has staked their capital I am indolent and unproductive as far as that business is concerned.

[moka]

Administering poverty

https://e-tangata.co.nz/comment-and-analysis/administering-poverty/
The biggest barrier for people on a Jobseeker benefit is that it’s not enough to live on safely. We need liveable incomes for everybody who is being supported through Work and Income. That’s every student, every young person, and anyone on a supported living payment or benefit.

We all know that benefits are below the poverty line. We also know that a lot of people in New Zealand, not just those on benefits, are in low-wage work. That means we have a whole section of society living in poverty. And if we look across our communities, there are so many problems because of poverty.

It’s important to remember that today’s welfare system operates within a capitalist structure which requires a certain level of unemployment for the market to operate. You hear that kind of talk all the time among business people — it’s never about eliminating unemployment and poverty. It’s about the acceptable or “good” level of unemployment.

So rather than act as a safety net, the welfare system has developed to administer poverty. And it’s been that way since the 1980s.
This has led to a situation where the level of poverty in New Zealand has worsened. It’s become entrenched and intergenerational in parts of the community.

Yet, in Aotearoa, we have all the levers to address poverty. If we wanted to, we could eliminate poverty tomorrow.
The best example of that is Covid. The government literally changed things overnight. They housed everybody and ran a high-trust model at Work and Income. For a change, if you lost your job, it was easy to access support. I remember that when Grant Robertson was asked about it, he said the government recognised that there was an emergency, and there was a need to get money into the community.

[Bjauck]

QUOTE=Logen Ninefingers The Left are running riot in this thread, posting chapter and verse about ‘neoliberalism’ as if the sheer weight of words can drown out basic reason and logic. I’ll answer their vast outpouring of posts with a few simple truths restated -

1/ Humans are by their nature competitive.
Humans are by their very nature compassionate and co-operative too.
2/ ‘Neoliberalism’ simply means less regulation / less state control / less state ownership of businesses.
Sure. Everything is relative.
3/ ‘Fairness’ is impossible to define, as one persons ‘fair’ is another persons ‘unfair’.
Fairness differs over time and place too.
4/ ‘Social justice’ is impossible to define, and moreover appears manifestly unjust from any rational perspective: there is nothing ‘just’ about taking from the productive, or those who staked their own capital on a venture when the eventual outcome was unknown, and giving to the indolent and the unproductive.
Society enables the productive to sell to others. So there is an obligation to give back in exchange.
5/ There have demonstrably been wealthy people throughout human history, and for thousands of years before Marx came up with his bonkers theories of ‘class warfare’
‘There were peasant revolts and revolts from others against those in control well before Marx. The Magna Carta for example was the result of one revolt against power.
6/ ‘Trickle down’ should simply mean than a more affluent society will have higher living standards than a poorer one
Where is the trickle down?
7/ The man who grew extra grain and sold it at a profit was the worlds first entrepreneur. The man who grew less grain and attacked his neighbour out of envy was the world’s first communist Maybe the first man had attacked the village and occupied the most productive land?
8/ There has never been a successful communist state in human history, and they have all become totalitarian.
Marxist-Leninist Communism is not democratic
9/ You can vote your way into socialism, but - as the people of Venezuela have discovered - you have to shoot your way out of it
There are left and right wing dictators.
10/ Leftism is predicated on unrealistic idealism and utopian fantasies
OECD nations tend to have mixed economies and varying degrees of social care.

[Panda-NZ-]

5/ There have demonstrably been wealthy people throughout human history, and for thousands of years before Marx came up with his bonkers theories of ‘class warfare’.

7/ The man who grew extra grain and sold it at a profit was the worlds first entrepreneur. The man who grew less grain and attacked his neighbour out of envy was the world’s first communist.

The tribune of the plebs was powerful in ancient rome. Emperors came up with free bread and entertainment (bread and circuses)..

The wealthy had alot of privilege, including owning slaves. But they were often killed off if they became a threat or an emperor simply needed their money to replenish the roman (or their own) treasury so it wasn't as safe as it is today.

[Daytr]

The Left are running riot in this thread, posting chapter and verse about ‘neoliberalism’ as if the sheer weight of words can drown out basic reason and logic. I’ll answer their vast outpouring of posts with a few simple truths restated -

1/ Humans are by their nature competitive.
2/ ‘Neoliberalism’ simply means less regulation / less state control / less state ownership of businesses.
3/ ‘Fairness’ is impossible to define, as one persons ‘fair’ is another persons ‘unfair’.
4/ ‘Social justice’ is impossible to define, and moreover appears manifestly unjust from any rational perspective: there is nothing ‘just’ about taking from the productive, or those who staked their own capital on a venture when the eventual outcome was unknown, and giving to the indolent and the unproductive.
5/ There have demonstrably been wealthy people throughout human history, and for thousands of years before Marx came up with his bonkers theories of ‘class warfare’.
6/ ‘Trickle down’ should simply mean than a more affluent society will have higher living standards than a poorer one.
7/ The man who grew extra grain and sold it at a profit was the worlds first entrepreneur. The man who grew less grain and attacked his neighbour out of envy was the world’s first communist.
8/ There has never been a successful communist state in human history, and they have all become totalitarian.
9/ You can vote your way into socialism, but - as the people of Venezuela have discovered - you have to shoot your way out of it.
10/ Leftism is predicated on unrealistic idealism and utopian fantasies.

What an over simplification of a complex issue.
As Bjauck points out Logen Ninefingers fails to mentions the revolutions throughout the world in the 19th & early 20th centuries. Perhaps he has forgotten the line "let them eat cake" which I bet Marie-Antionette regretted when facing the guillotine.

Neoliberalism has seen state owned assets sold for a discounted value to line the pockets of the already wealthy.

I find it incredible that the coalition government is now complaining about the power generation and retailers when National went against the results of a referendum and sold half what was tax payer owned.

Neoliberalism has also seen the under funding of infrastructure, health and education for decades and then the previous National & current Government want to partly privatize some of these services, which again only the already well off will be able to afford.

Speaking of cake, Mark Mitchell took it when arguing for a public / private partnership gor a police station in Auckland CBD.
What's next mercenaries patrolling the streets?

[iceman]

I find it incredible that the coalition government is now complaining about the power generation and retailers when National went against the results of a referendum and sold half what was tax payer owned.



Interesting. Are you saying it was a bad decision, decided by a vote of the population, to sell 49% of those assets ? If so, please explain how you have come to that conclusion ?

[Panda-NZ-]

Speaking of cake, Mark Mitchell took it when arguing for a public / private partnership gor a police station in Auckland CBD.
What's next mercenaries patrolling the streets?

Luxon gets all giddy when talking about public private partnerships.

Hopefully there's effective auditing and a second viewpoint sought on these ideas.

[Panda-NZ-]

I find it incredible that the coalition government is now complaining about the power generation and retailers when National went against the results of a referendum and sold half what was tax payer owned.


Interesting set of circumstances that are relevant here.

Devestation, two mills close with hundreds of jobs on the line.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350385666/devastation-two-mills-close-hundreds-jobs-line

Isn't the marginal cost for hydro only 3c/kwh.. that was certainly on offer to Rio Tinto.

[Bjauck]

Interesting. Are you saying it was a bad decision, decided by a vote of the population, to sell 49% of those assets ? If so, please explain how you have come to that conclusion ?
The result of the referendum was 67% of voters were against the sale of 49% of those state assets.

However John Key had said he would ignore the result of the referendum. Despite that, the turnout was still 45%. Key was determined to sell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_New_Zealand_asset_sales_referendum

[Balance]

The result of the referendum was 67% of voters were against the sale of 49% of those state assets.

However John Key had said he would ignore the result of the referendum. Despite that, the turnout was still 45%. Key was determined to sell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_New_Zealand_asset_sales_referendum

That’s what leadership is about.

Compared to ‘Policing by consent’, remember?

[dobby41]

Interesting. Are you saying it was a bad decision, decided by a vote of the population, to sell 49% of those assets ? If so, please explain how you have come to that conclusion ?

Ultimately - yes.
The isn't so much the sale but the rules they then run by.
1/ they are allowed a maximum ROI so they revalued straight away and could then put up prices.
2/ they all get paid the rate of the most expensive producer. There is little incentive for the lowest cost producer (hydro) to push production high as when the speaker kicks in they'll get paid more for their cheap hydro.
What should be done is the speaker gets paid based on their cost+ and the result is averaged to the consumer (or wholesale price).
3/ Gentailers - push the cost of your power up (the wholesale rate) but discount to your retail arm making it hard for any retail competitors.

[dobby41]

That’s what leadership is about.

Compared to ‘Policing by consent’, remember?

That isn't leadership!
That's ignoring the voters (or ignoring democracy).

[dobby41]

So we get a new Ministry for Regulation to cut costs.
Seymour then staffs it with 91 people (so much for cutting the public service) and pay them an average of over $150k/year.
"Seymour confirmed the median and mean salary of fixed-term and permanent Ministry employees is $154,500 and $152,034"

That makes the median ministry salary 82% higher than that of the average public servant, which is $84,000.

[Daytr]

Interesting. Are you saying it was a bad decision, decided by a vote of the population, to sell 49% of those assets ? If so, please explain how you have come to that conclusion ?

I'm not sure what you are on about.
There was a referendum on these sales and 2/3rds voted against the sale but Key did it anyway.

[iceman]

I'm not sure what you are on about.
There was a referendum on these sales and 2/3rds voted against the sale but Key did it anyway.

Partial sale was a major and much discussed election policy and National won the election. Simple.

Unlike all the major policies Labour implemented in their last stint that all came out of the blue and were never mentioned during election campaigns.

[Daytr]

Partial sale was a major and much discussed election policy and National won the election. Simple.

Unlike all the major policies Labour implemented in their last stint that all came out of the blue and were never mentioned during election campaigns.

Really, show me evidence of that.
The fact that a specific referendum on the sales was 2/3rds against suggests even a large number of right wing voters were against the sale.

And what we got from it? Ridiculously high electricity prices, lack of quality investment in infrastructure to keep up with demand, meanwhile dividends have leaked out to shareholders.

It has been an unmitigated disaster for taxpayers.

[Panda-NZ-]

Not to worry- a pensioner can hopefully put their 2 bucks a week towards the new electricity prices.