TOP Party one to watch in this election

[Azz]

Lol.

Hoping for a B & D session?

Well I'm always in trouble, so I may as well enjoy it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Lol.

Hoping for a B & D session?

Black (Vinyl) Peter will be the one wielding the cane.

[Azz]

Black (Vinyl) Peter will be the one wielding the cane.

Now that's another story altogether..............

[Getty]

He's got his mouth full at the moment...

[Logen Ninefingers]

He's got his mouth full at the moment...

So you've already wandered down the hall then.

[Getty]

No, l just gave him an assignment in an earlier post this afternoon.

You could say he's dining in.

[Azz]

So you've already wandered down the hall then.

Is this one of those South Island private schools?

[Getty]

No, l just gave him an assignment in an earlier post this afternoon.

You could say he's dining in.

Or you could say he's full of himself ..

[Daytr]

Raf Manji is a breath of fresh air.
Evidence based policies no dog whistling and not left or right. These are NZs version of the Australian Teals.
If he can't win Ilam, then hopefully they poll well & gather momentum for 2026.

https://fb.watch/nqReb64Xjc/?mibextid=Nif5oz

[justakiwi]

Raf Manji is a breath of fresh air.
Evidence based policies no dog whistling and not left or right. These are NZs version of the Australian Teals.
If he can't win Ilam, then hopefully they poll well & gather momentum for 2026.

https://fb.watch/nqReb64Xjc/?mibextid=Nif5oz

He really is. This is actually the first interview I have watched of him, and he comes across as a smart, intelligent, down to earth person. I even like the fact that he said "We will work with anyone. We are just focussed on solving the problems we face in NZ today." None of the party v party BS.

Realistically, we probably won't see TOP in government this time round, but you are right. If they gather momentum between now and 2026, they may well stand a good chance.

They have my vote - decision made.

[BlackPeter]

He really is. This is actually the first interview I have watched of him, and he comes across as a smart, intelligent, down to earth person. I even like the fact that he said "We will work with anyone. We are just focussed on solving the problems we face in NZ today." None of the party v party BS.

Realistically, we probably won't see TOP in government this time round, but you are right. If they gather momentum between now and 2026, they may well stand a good chance.

They have my vote - decision made.

Actually - I happened to have yesterday a good chat with him in one of his "meet the candidate" meetings in Ilam. Great guy, and yes - other than other politicians I spoke to, he seems to be one of the people first listening and analysing a problem before suggesting a solution. We need more of these people in parliament.

Politically he might be best described as liberal environmentalist (he mentioned blue green and the Australian TEAL party). but above all, I think he is a problem solver who is able to work with both political sides.

He came across quite different to other politicians from both the left and the right, who typically just have a solution (their respective ideology) and try to make this fit to whatever the problem might be.

Good man, and no matter which convoluted tactics some people might suggest - he will have my support.

And actually, I don't think his chances to get in as MP of Ilam don't look that dim. He has good connections to the university, his party offers for the youth a much better perspective that either National or Labour does - and, just in case people didn't notice, Ilam is where the univerisity is and where most of the students are enrolled. Sort of wondering, whether the people doing the polls already realised that the elections are this year during term time :)?

[Patrick11]

Top party wants to please everyone but that is not how the world works .

[BlackPeter]

Top party wants to please everyone but that is not how the world works .

Never let the facts get in the way of a nice sounding but unsuitable one-liner :);

Here are their policies: https://www.top.org.nz/policy

Ah yes, and something I recently found - Raf Manji on Three Waters - interesting piece:

https://www.top.org.nz/three_waters

Sounds to me like common sense, but if you think this is pleasing everybody, than you clearly have never spoken with one of the political extremes.

TOP is liberal and they are environmentally aware. Both hard right as well as hard left do hate them. From which side are you hailing?

[justakiwi]

I don't get that feeling at all. Their focus appears to be on solving the issues NZ is currently experiencing, whilst investing in our young people to ensure they enter adulthood/the workforce with the skills they need (in a wide range of areas, not simply traditional education). I 100% agree with him re the suggestion to create a new "young offenders" prison. A total waste of money, ambulance at the bottom of the cliff idea. As someone who has seen first hand (via a previous job) how youth justice works in this country - prevention is better than cure. Another thing I liked from his interview was his comment that some things have already been put in place, that we may or may not agree with, but we need to see how they go. So, he is not doing what the others are doing, declaring they will immediately reverse projects that have already begun, straight off the bat, at a huge cost to the country. That is a far more sensible and responsible approach in my opinion. Sure, it may be that they end up scrapping something, but not until the evidence is in, to show it is not working.



Top party wants to please everyone but that is not how the world works .

[Logen Ninefingers]

Rubbish. I don't get that feeling at all. Their focus appears to be on solving the issues NZ is currently experiencing, whilst investing in our young people to ensure they enter adulthood/the workforce with the skills they need (in a wide range of areas, not simply traditional education). I 100% agree with him re the suggestion to create a new "young offenders" prison. A total waste of money, ambulance at the bottom of the cliff idea. As someone who has seen first hand (via a previous job) how youth justice works in this country - prevention is better than cure. Another thing I liked from his interview was his comment that some things have already been put in place, that we may or may not agree with, but we need to see how they go. So, he is not doing what the others are doing, declaring they will immediately reverse projects that have already begun, straight off the bat, at a huge cost to the country. That is a far more sensible and responsible approach in my opinion. Sure, it may be that they end up scrapping something, but not until the evidence is in, to show it is not working.

‘Rubbish. I don't get that feeling at all.’

————

Do you have to come down on other people like a tonne of bricks? Patricks opinion is not ‘rubbish’, it is just as valid as yours, I agree with Patrick on this one fwiw.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Actually - I happened to have yesterday a good chat with him in one of his "meet the candidate" meetings in Ilam. Great guy, and yes - other than other politicians I spoke to, he seems to be one of the people first listening and analysing a problem before suggesting a solution. We need more of these people in parliament.

Politically he might be best described as liberal environmentalist (he mentioned blue green and the Australian TEAL party). but above all, I think he is a problem solver who is able to work with both political sides.

He came across quite different to other politicians from both the left and the right, who typically just have a solution (their respective ideology) and try to make this fit to whatever the problem might be.

Good man, and no matter which convoluted tactics some people might suggest - he will have my support.

And actually, I don't think his chances to get in as MP of Ilam don't look that dim. He has good connections to the university, his party offers for the youth a much better perspective that either National or Labour does - and, just in case people didn't notice, Ilam is where the univerisity is and where most of the students are enrolled. Sort of wondering, whether the people doing the polls already realised that the elections are this year during term time :)?

Is that you Raf? 😂

[justakiwi]

Oh, my sincere​ apologies! I will go edit my post right now.


‘Rubbish. I don't get that feeling at all.’

————

Do you have to come down on other people like a tonne of bricks? Patricks opinion is not ‘rubbish’, it is just as valid as yours, I agree with Patrick on this one fwiw.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Never let the facts get in the way of a nice sounding but unsuitable one-liner :);

Here are their policies: https://www.top.org.nz/policy

Ah yes, and something I recently found - Raf Manji on Three Waters - interesting piece:

https://www.top.org.nz/three_waters

Sounds to me like common sense, but if you think this is pleasing everybody, than you clearly have never spoken with one of the political extremes.

TOP is liberal and they are environmentally aware. Both hard right as well as hard left do hate them. From which side are you hailing?

Hating TOP would be a total waste of effort as they just will not feature in this election. Manji is coming 3rd on the polling in Ilam - despite his pork barrelling - and the party is polling well under the threshold in the party vote. Good luck to Manji in all his future endeavours, heading back to CHC Council will give him the substantial meal ticket he is seeking.

[BlackPeter]

Is that you Raf? ��

Somewhat disappointing post - I thought that's beneath you, but always learning :) ;

But just for clarity - no, I am not Raf, nor am I in any way associated with TOP. Just an open minded voter sharing his experiences and views.

I find it sad that a small group of people seem to think they have the right to rubbish TOP, while at the same time trying to undermine and ridicule others with a different perspective.

Quite funny understanding of democracy.

[Patrick11]

Let me guess BlackPeter you live in Canterbury. I lived there for 25years and want it to do well. The problem is a lot of students don't vote regarding teal card. Good luck to TOP a possible party similar to united future.

[blackcap]

I don't get that feeling at all. Their focus appears to be on solving the issues NZ is currently experiencing, whilst investing in our young people to ensure they enter adulthood/the workforce with the skills they need (in a wide range of areas, not simply traditional education). I 100% agree with him re the suggestion to create a new "young offenders" prison. A total waste of money, ambulance at the bottom of the cliff idea. As someone who has seen first hand (via a previous job) how youth justice works in this country - prevention is better than cure. Another thing I liked from his interview was his comment that some things have already been put in place, that we may or may not agree with, but we need to see how they go. So, he is not doing what the others are doing, declaring they will immediately reverse projects that have already begun, straight off the bat, at a huge cost to the country. That is a far more sensible and responsible approach in my opinion. Sure, it may be that they end up scrapping something, but not until the evidence is in, to show it is not working.

All parties to a large extent want to solve the issues NZ is currently facing.

They just disagree about the path to get there.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Somewhat disappointing post - I thought that's beneath you, but always learning :) ;

But just for clarity - no, I am not Raf, nor am I in any way associated with TOP. Just an open minded voter sharing his experiences and views.

I find it sad that a small group of people seem to think they have the right to rubbish TOP, while at the same time trying to undermine and ridicule others with a different perspective.

Quite funny understanding of democracy.

It was just a joke. I can see you are very optimistic about TOP and Manji, but I like to balance things up. They are just more politicians after all. IMO Manji is a bit of an opportunist, and I am allowed to have my opinion. He has been a Christchurch City Councillor, then (while still a councillor) he stood as an Independent in Ilam, now he has popped up in TOP. So - based on that - I think he is not a conviction politician, he is a floater.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Let me guess BlackPeter you live in Canterbury. I lived there for 25years and want it to do well. The problem is a lot of students don't vote regarding teal card. Good luck to TOP a possible party similar to united future.

....and we know what happened to United Future.

[BlackPeter]

It was just a joke. I can see you are very optimistic about TOP and Manji, but I like to balance things up. They are just more politicians after all. IMO Manji is a bit of an opportunist, and I am allowed to have my opinion. He has been a Christchurch City Councillor, then (while still a councillor) he stood as an Independent in Ilam, now he has popped up in TOP. So - based on that - I think he is not a conviction politician, he is a floater.

Some jokes are just bad taste, and this is one of them. Decent posters don't try to undermine other posters integrity unless they have evidence for what you now call "just a joke".

But sure, anybody is entitled to their opinion, even you. What's however telling is that so far nobody really tried to discuss their policies. Just feels like a line up of hard right smears trying to undermine a democratic alternative without having any substance. This is sad.

And as far as Raj's alleged "floating" is concerned - anybody is allowed to change their political stance. Winston Peters did that, Richard Prebble did that and many other politicians did that, some of them deserving more respect than others. I don't think however that this was the case with Raf. In 2017 TOP was still new and under Gareth Morgan (while already centrist) a different party. Remember the saga with the cats? I wouldn't have supported Gareth Morgan either (well, I didn't). Today however Gareth is history and TOP reemerged as liberal environmental party. Not sure, where you see the problem in standing for them now and not then?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Some jokes are just bad taste, and this is one of them. Decent posters don't try to undermine other posters integrity unless they have evidence for what you now call "just a joke".

But sure, anybody is entitled to their opinion, even you. What's however telling is that so far nobody really tried to discuss their policies. Just feels like a line up of hard right smears trying to undermine a democratic alternative without having any substance. This is sad.

And as far as Raj's alleged "floating" is concerned - anybody is allowed to change their political stance. Winston Peters did that, Richard Prebble did that and many other politicians did that, some of them deserving more respect than others. I don't think however that this was the case with Raf. In 2017 TOP was still new and under Gareth Morgan (while already centrist) a different party. Remember the saga with the cats? I wouldn't have supported Gareth Morgan either (well, I didn't). Today however Gareth is history and TOP reemerged as liberal environmental party. Not sure, where you see the problem in standing for them now and not then?

I'm not trying to undermine your integrity. If you won't accept that I was joking then that is a bit of bad faith on your part.

I have discussed TOP's 'Christchurch Plan' policy in other posts.

TOP is courting the Christchurch / Ilam vote and the youth vote.

As far as the youth vote is concerned, TOP are courting it with a suite of socialist policies:

- Fully funded healthcare for young people, including GP visits and dental care.
- Free annual eye checks.
- Free mental health care (up to 5 sessions a year).
- Free public transport (buses, trains, ferries).
- $1,500 credit for e-bikes, scooters, and bikes.
- $5,000 tax-free savings boost at age 18 into a savings account through KiwiBank, which can be accessed for education, training or placed into a KiwiSaver account. ('To access the Universal Savings Boost, young people must complete a National Civic Service Program before age 23.')
This program is purportedly 'about future-proofing New Zealanders to become more resilient citizens through a focus on the 4 C’s: Conservation, Civil Defence, Community Service and Civics.')
Total cost: $1.5 billion per annum (TOP's figures)

Funded through:
Climate Emergency Response Fund - $200m
Income Tax shifts (income over $180,000 taxed at 42% (up from 39%) and a new top rate of 45% for income over $250,000) - $550m
Corporate Tax shift (from 28% to 29%) - $750m

In New Zealand we should work to improve the lot of ourselves and those around us, and not recieve large scale hand-outs from the state via redistributive taxation.
TOP's policies are not centrist as far as I can see, they are significantly to the left of the Labour Party. This is epic pork barrelling to secure votes, nothing is really 'free', it all has to be paid for either through borrowing (which incurrs interest) or 'Robin Hood' taxation.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I'm not trying to undermine your integrity. If you won't accept that I was joking then that is a bit of bad faith on your part.

I have discussed TOP's 'Christchurch Plan' policy in other posts.

TOP is courting the Christchurch / Ilam vote and the youth vote.

As far as the youth vote is concerned, TOP are courting it with a suite of socialist policies:

- Fully funded healthcare for young people, including GP visits and dental care.
- Free annual eye checks.
- Free mental health care (up to 5 sessions a year).
- Free public transport (buses, trains, ferries).
- $1,500 credit for e-bikes, scooters, and bikes.
- $5,000 tax-free savings boost at age 18 into a savings account through KiwiBank, which can be accessed for education, training or placed into a KiwiSaver account. ('To access the Universal Savings Boost, young people must complete a National Civic Service Program before age 23.')
This program is purportedly 'about future-proofing New Zealanders to become more resilient citizens through a focus on the 4 C’s: Conservation, Civil Defence, Community Service and Civics.')
Total cost: $1.5 billion per annum (TOP's figures)

Funded through:
Climate Emergency Response Fund - $200m
Income Tax shifts (income over $180,000 taxed at 42% (up from 39%) and a new top rate of 45% for income over $250,000) - $550m
Corporate Tax shift (from 28% to 29%) - $750m

In New Zealand we should work to improve the lot of ourselves and those around us, and not recieve large scale hand-outs from the state via redistributive taxation.
TOP's policies are not centrist as far as I can see, they are significantly to the left of the Labour Party. This is epic pork barrelling to secure votes, nothing is really 'free', it all has to be paid for either through borrowing (which incurrs interest) or 'Robin Hood' taxation.

This is all detailed here, encompassed by something TOP call 'the Teal Card'. This is a blatant appropriation of the terminology and thinking vis a vis 'the Gold Card' for the elderly which was championed by Winnie Peters and NZ First.

https://www.top.org.nz/tealcard

[BlackPeter]

...

TOP is courting the Christchurch / Ilam vote and the youth vote.

As far as the youth vote is concerned, TOP are courting it with a suite of socialist policies:

- Fully funded healthcare for young people, including GP visits and dental care.
- Free annual eye checks.
- Free mental health care (up to 5 sessions a year).
- Free public transport (buses, trains, ferries).
- $1,500 credit for e-bikes, scooters, and bikes.
- $5,000 tax-free savings boost at age 18 into a savings account through KiwiBank, which can be accessed for education, training or placed into a KiwiSaver account. (To access the Universal Savings Boost, young people must complete a National Civic Service Program before age 23.

...



OK - so you are complaining that TOP proposes to basically provide free healthcare for our youth? Really?

Well, I remember that I grew up myself in such a society (West-Germany in the 1960íes / 70íes, where a compulsory social insurance scheme funded all these things) and I remember as well that my public transport (to get as well to school) was state funded.

Actually - I think NZ was not too different in this time (free healthcare, free schooling, free university), its just that the people who benefitted from these policies here seem now to be too selfish to give the next generation the same great start into life they enjoyed themselves.

But back to my old home - Germany was during this time not under a socialist regime. They had MMP and governments have been either CDU/FDP or SPD/FDP, with CDU being similar to National, SPD being similar to Labour and FDP being similar to TOP). So, policies have been centre-left or centre-right, and mainly centre of the road. And btw - Germanys economical success during these times was legendary: "Das Wirtschaftswunder" (economic miracle). Something to strive for, not to kill with stupid hard right ideologies.

Maybe we just need to get rid of all these blinker wearing right (and left) wing extremists, loosen the handbrakes and turn our country into a succesful economy again?

Our youth is our future, and not investing into our future (and its health) is not just selfish, but plain dumb - so what is wrong with TOPS policy?

Ah yes, and you might have missed that TOP is proposing as well a social service which our youth would need to contribute to before they would get the $5000 you are whinging about. Remember - we do have acute worker shortages in many essential industries like health services, care services and infrastructure. What a great idea to give our youth a first hand look into these industries, reduce the worker shortages and fill vacancies with young Kiwis instead of hiring another bunch of people from the islands?

What exactly would be wrong with that? Having our youth engage in social services (e.g help in age care or planting trees) would be good for everybody - and whinging about a small thank you for this service is just - well, pick your choice: mean, tight, short-sighted - or just dumb?

TOP is about investing into our youth and with that into our future, not to kill it off or send our young people to Australia, as other political parties do with their brain dead policies.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cULCcPyQs7WYaB_dpkpu4J0NMF5ljSSP/view?usp=drive_link

TOP: Not left or right, but forward looking and future focussed.

[Logen Ninefingers]

OK - so you are complaining that TOP proposes to basically provide free healthcare for our youth? Really?

Well, I remember that I grew up myself in such a society (West-Germany in the 1960íes / 70íes, where a compulsory social insurance scheme funded all these things) and I remember as well that my public transport (to get as well to school) was state funded.

Actually - I think NZ was not too different in this time (free healthcare, free schooling, free university), its just that the people who benefitted from these policies here seem now to be too selfish to give the next generation the same great start into life they enjoyed themselves.

But back to my old home - Germany was during this time not under a socialist regime. They had MMP and governments have been either CDU/FDP or SPD/FDP, with CDU being similar to National, SPD being similar to Labour and FDP being similar to TOP). So, policies have been centre-left or centre-right, and mainly centre of the road. And btw - Germanys economical success during these times was legendary: "Das Wirtschaftswunder" (economic miracle). Something to strive for, not to kill with stupid hard right ideologies.

Maybe we just need to get rid of all these blinker wearing right (and left) wing extremists, loosen the handbrakes and turn our country into a succesful economy again?

Our youth is our future, and not investing into our future (and its health) is not just selfish, but plain dumb - so what is wrong with TOPS policy?

Ah yes, and you might have missed that TOP is proposing as well a social service which our youth would need to contribute to before they would get the $5000 you are whinging about. Remember - we do have acute worker shortages in many essential industries like health services, care services and infrastructure. What a great idea to give our youth a first hand look into these industries, reduce the worker shortages and fill vacancies with young Kiwis instead of hiring another bunch of people from the islands?

What exactly would be wrong with that? Having our youth engage in social services (e.g help in age care or planting trees) would be good for everybody - and whinging about a small thank you for this service is just - well, pick your choice: mean, tight, short-sighted - or just dumb?

TOP is about investing into our youth and with that into our future, not to kill it off or send our young people to Australia, as other political parties do with their brain dead policies.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cULCcPyQs7WYaB_dpkpu4J0NMF5ljSSP/view?usp=drive_link

TOP: Not left or right, but forward looking and future focussed.

I’m not ‘complaining’ about anything, I’m laying out the TOP policies entirely as they are. We can trot out all the slogans we like, including ‘investing in youth’, this is still a socialist giveaway via redistributive ‘Robin Hood’ taxation.
Giving away ‘free’ stuff is all well and good - I’m sure we’d all like free clothes, a free car, a free house and so on and so forth - but these are most definitely Left wing policies. And we can dress the giveaways up in fine language and talk about ‘future focussed’ and ‘fresh ideas’, but strip away the marketing spin & this is really all about attempting to buy a place in the next Parliament.

[Azz]

The next TOP policy drop: Free beer!

[BlackPeter]

I’m not ‘complaining’ about anything, I’m laying out the TOP policies entirely as they are. We can trot out all the slogans we like, including ‘investing in youth’, this is still a socialist giveaway via redistributive ‘Robin Hood’ taxation.
Giving away ‘free’ stuff is all well and good - I’m sure we’d all like free clothes, a free car, a free house and so on and so forth - but these are most definitely Left wing policies. And we can dress the giveaways up in fine language and talk about ‘future focussed’ and ‘fresh ideas’, but strip away the marketing spin & this is really all about attempting to buy a place in the next Parliament.

Sad.

Would you ever invest into a company which stopped investing into its future? No sensible investor would, but I can't remember a lot of investment contributions from you, so maybe you are just here to promote an extreme rightwing and selfish way to kill our country off. Certainly not the way I imagine our countries future.

I want it to keep thriving - and this requires investment into its future workforce, otherwise we won't have a workforce to keep it going.

Maybe you should move to Somalia, I hear they don't collect taxes over there ... and just look what you get for this privilege :p .

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sad.

Would you ever invest into a company which stopped investing into its future? No sensible investor would, but I can't remember a lot of investment contributions from you, so maybe you are just here to promote an extreme rightwing and selfish way to kill our country off. Certainly not the way I imagine our countries future.

I want it to keep thriving - and this requires investment into its future workforce, otherwise we won't have a workforce to keep it going.

Maybe you should move to Somalia, I hear they don't collect taxes over there ... and just look what you get for this privilege :p .

I think this is now turning into a massive dummy spit from you. You are labelling something as an 'investment' when it is in actual fact just a programme of socialistic giveaways. Not giving each 18 year old $5000 is now labelled as "an extreme rightwing and selfish way to kill our country off". I beg to disagree.
People have paid their way in New Zealand for time immemorial & we are now in a new phase where parties like the Greens and TOP are looking at a 'revolution by stealth' where life becomes about how much you can drain from the taxpayer, rather than about being a productive member of society in your own right.
Sorry, free this, free that, and free the other thing is extreme socialism, extreme Leftism, and it is most certainly that which will "kill our country".

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sad.

Would you ever invest into a company which stopped investing into its future? No sensible investor would, but I can't remember a lot of investment contributions from you, so maybe you are just here to promote an extreme rightwing and selfish way to kill our country off. Certainly not the way I imagine our countries future.

I want it to keep thriving - and this requires investment into its future workforce, otherwise we won't have a workforce to keep it going.

Maybe you should move to Somalia, I hear they don't collect taxes over there ... and just look what you get for this privilege :p .

'this requires investment into its future workforce, otherwise we won't have a workforce to keep it going.'

---

Rather than a programme of bribes dressed up as 'investment', we should promote innovation & productivity and self reliance.

[SBQ]

Raf Manji is a breath of fresh air.
Evidence based policies no dog whistling and not left or right. These are NZs version of the Australian Teals.
If he can't win Ilam, then hopefully they poll well & gather momentum for 2026.

https://fb.watch/nqReb64Xjc/?mibextid=Nif5oz

Can't say I support TOP. In Manji's interview @ 2:25 he talks about "Economic well being for Maori" and Ngai Tahu (local Iwi). He's fails to distinguish that Ngai Tahu has massive corporation that has done nothing in regards to improving Maori OUTSIDE OF THEIR IWI. Instead they've only benefited to those from their own clan. We see this often as where my wife works, they routinely have to deal with Maori issues because migrant families from say the North Island are not part of the Ngai Tahu. Likewise where I do PTA involvement at primary school, we aid the impoverish, (some Maori families) that they themselves having no relation to Ngai Tahu. So i'm against this stupid narrative that "We need to do more for Maori" when it's always been the various Iwis around NZ have taken on a selfish approach.

A Maori bank? C'mon this has been done before in Canada. The fundamental reason why it does not work lies in the same problem why African nations never get any development funding. Because the lenders expect more and history has shown that not all borrowers are equal. Those whom are able to manage and return their debt get are preferred. For centuries the banks in Canada have discriminated 1st Nations when it comes to business lending on their ventures. Can't blame them as nearly all of their projects fail. Well proven time and time again when tax payer $ goes to funding indigenous initiatives.

There's so much I don't like about TOP so that's reassuring to hear from the leader himself what their party is about.

[BlackPeter]

I think this is now turning into a massive dummy spit from you. You are labelling something as an 'investment' when it is in actual fact just a programme of socialistic giveaways. Not giving each 18 year old $5000 is now labelled as "an extreme rightwing and selfish way to kill our country off". I beg to disagree.
People have paid their way in New Zealand for time immemorial & we are now in a new phase where parties like the Greens and TOP are looking at a 'revolution by stealth' where life becomes about how much you can drain from the taxpayer, rather than about being a productive member of society in your own right.
Sorry, free this, free that, and free the other thing is extreme socialism, extreme Leftism, and it is most certainly that which will "kill our country".

Sadly - you just keep spreading misinformation. In your favour I will assume that you are just too lazy to read the post you are replying to and to do your research before you are responding. Just reading my previous posts would have been enough, so please - if you want to keep a meaningful and civilized dialogue, than please first properly read whats written instead of making things up and than argue against the strawman you created yourself.

Actually - what you are doing is one of the usual trolling strategies. Is this how you want to behave?

So, just for you - lets look again into the relevant bit of TOP's TEAL policy:

14770

Giving every child a fair start, on completion of the National Civic Service Program:

I guess it couldn't be more clear, could it? This payment is on completion of the National Civic Service Program. Which part of "on completion" do you not understand? - or do you just like to make things up and spread misinformation?

[Daytr]

I think this is now turning into a massive dummy spit from you. You are labelling something as an 'investment' when it is in actual fact just a programme of socialistic giveaways. Not giving each 18 year old $5000 is now labelled as "an extreme rightwing and selfish way to kill our country off". I beg to disagree.
People have paid their way in New Zealand for time immemorial & we are now in a new phase where parties like the Greens and TOP are looking at a 'revolution by stealth' where life becomes about how much you can drain from the taxpayer, rather than about being a productive member of society in your own right.
Sorry, free this, free that, and free the other thing is extreme socialism, extreme Leftism, and it is most certainly that which will "kill our country".

What a complete load of bollocks.
NZers haven't paid their way for time immemorial as BlackPeter has already pointed out. Many of the policies TOP are advocating for were what most people over the age of 50 would have experienced especially in regards Healthcare. Getting kids on ebikes or any bike is also a good thing and will help limit the growing diabetes crisis. It would also reduce traffic, lower emmissiins and road maintenence.

Most people over the age of 50 would have also come out of University with little or no student debt. Now the best way to pay off that burden is to go overseas.

None of the major parties have governed for the long term future of NZ in the last 25 years or so. And as a result NZ has gone from being a relatively cheap place to live with a high standard of living, education & health services to an absolute shambles.

Both Labour & National want to continue down the same old failed path.

[blackcap]

I think this is now turning into a massive dummy spit from you. You are labelling something as an 'investment' when it is in actual fact just a programme of socialistic giveaways. Not giving each 18 year old $5000 is now labelled as "an extreme rightwing and selfish way to kill our country off". I beg to disagree.
People have paid their way in New Zealand for time immemorial & we are now in a new phase where parties like the Greens and TOP are looking at a 'revolution by stealth' where life becomes about how much you can drain from the taxpayer, rather than about being a productive member of society in your own right.
Sorry, free this, free that, and free the other thing is extreme socialism, extreme Leftism, and it is most certainly that which will "kill our country".

Nothing is actually free, that is what most people forget. It is your and mine money. It is not free. Tax is theft by any other definition. It is taking from the productive and redistributing to the unproductive. (to a point) We have gone too far the socialst way and the current state of affairs is a timely reminder that communism/socialism does not work long term and is not sustainable.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sadly - you just keep spreading misinformation. In your favour I will assume that you are just too lazy to read the post you are replying to and to do your research before you are responding. Just reading my previous posts would have been enough, so please - if you want to keep a meaningful and civilized dialogue, than please first properly read whats written instead of making things up and than argue against the strawman you created yourself.

Actually - what you are doing is one of the usual trolling strategies. Is this how you want to behave?

So, just for you - lets look again into the relevant bit of TOP's TEAL policy:

14770

Giving every child a fair start, on completion of the National Civic Service Program:

I guess it couldn't be more clear, could it? This payment is on completion of the National Civic Service Program. Which part of "on completion" do you not understand? - or do you just like to make things up and spread misinformation?

I don't care if they have to stand on their head for a week to get the hand out, it's still $5000 of taxpayers money being given away.


Giving every child a fair start, on completion of the National Civic Service Program:

1/ An 18 year old is a taxpayer, a voter, and not a toddler. They should be treated accordingly.
2/ There is nothing 'fair' about taking from one group of people & giving to another using the power of the state.
3/ This is the first I've ever heard of the idea that 'a fair start' involves a suite a freebies + a $5000 hand out.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Nothing is actually free, that is what most people forget. It is your and mine money. It is not free. Tax is theft by any other definition. It is taking from the productive and redistributing to the unproductive. (to a point) We have gone too far the socialst way and the current state of affairs is a timely reminder that communism/socialism does not work long term and is not sustainable.

'Neither Left nor Right' but with Left wing socialistic & redistributive policies, and now people with Left wing perspectives are popping up in the thread to vent against anyone discussing the nuts and bolts of these policies. Apparently you are an "extreme right winger" if you don't agree with ever expanding socialism.

[BlackPeter]

Can't say I support TOP. In Manji's interview @ 2:25 he talks about "Economic well being for Maori" and Ngai Tahu (local Iwi). He's fails to distinguish that Ngai Tahu has massive corporation that has done nothing in regards to improving Maori OUTSIDE OF THEIR IWI. Instead they've only benefited to those from their own clan. We see this often as where my wife works, they routinely have to deal with Maori issues because migrant families from say the North Island are not part of the Ngai Tahu. Likewise where I do PTA involvement at primary school, we aid the impoverish, (some Maori families) that they themselves having no relation to Ngai Tahu. So i'm against this stupid narrative that "We need to do more for Maori" when it's always been the various Iwis around NZ have taken on a selfish approach.

A Maori bank? C'mon this has been done before in Canada. The fundamental reason why it does not work lies in the same problem why African nations never get any development funding. Because the lenders expect more and history has shown that not all borrowers are equal. Those whom are able to manage and return their debt get are preferred. For centuries the banks in Canada have discriminated 1st Nations when it comes to business lending on their ventures. Can't blame them as nearly all of their projects fail. Well proven time and time again when tax payer $ goes to funding indigenous initiatives.

There's so much I don't like about TOP so that's reassuring to hear from the leader himself what their party is about.

Actually - cheers for posting the interview.

Reading however what you heard and comparing listening to what Raf said are two different things. I'd encourage anybody to listen to the interview by themselves. I can't hear anything which would put Maori interests above other interests, and hey, what's wrong with supporting those who are still at the bottom of our economic and social order? If they get a chance to move into better housing and get better education and better jobs, we all will win.

But, btw - I don't think there is an expectation that everybody likes TOP's policies (nobody can please everybody :) ). So, if after checking you don't like them, this is ok. Its a democracy and liberal parties get rarely more than 10 or 15%. We do need as well lefties and even some of the right people in a functioning democratic system. However - in successful democracies there normally are liberal people involved in government.

And hey, I don't like many policies from e.g. ACT or the Greens either, so why should people who love those support TOP?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Actually - cheers for posting the interview.

Reading however what you heard and comparing listening to what Raf said are two different things. I'd encourage anybody to listen to the interview by themselves. I can't hear anything which would put Maori interests above other interests, and hey, what's wrong with supporting those who are still at the bottom of our economic and social order? If they get a chance to move into better housing and get better education and better jobs, we all will win.

But, btw - I don't think there is an expectation that everybody likes TOP's policies (nobody can please everybody :) ). So, if after checking you don't like them, this is ok. Its a democracy and liberal parties get rarely more than 10 or 15%. We do need as well lefties and even some of the right people in a functioning democratic system. However - in successful democracies there normally are liberal people involved in government.

And hey, I don't like many policies from e.g. ACT or the Greens either, so why should people who love those support TOP?

You continue to use this term 'liberal' but I still have a problem getting a handle on your definition. When you say that 'liberal parties rarely get more than 10 or 15%', which parties are you talking about? The Liberal Party in Australia is one of the major political parties there.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Actually - cheers for posting the interview.

Reading however what you heard and comparing listening to what Raf said are two different things. I'd encourage anybody to listen to the interview by themselves. I can't hear anything which would put Maori interests above other interests, and hey, what's wrong with supporting those who are still at the bottom of our economic and social order? If they get a chance to move into better housing and get better education and better jobs, we all will win.

But, btw - I don't think there is an expectation that everybody likes TOP's policies (nobody can please everybody :) ). So, if after checking you don't like them, this is ok. Its a democracy and liberal parties get rarely more than 10 or 15%. We do need as well lefties and even some of the right people in a functioning democratic system. However - in successful democracies there normally are liberal people involved in government.

And hey, I don't like many policies from e.g. ACT or the Greens either, so why should people who love those support TOP?

Are there any TOP policies you are not a fan of, and is there anything about Manji you are dubious about?

[Daytr]

I don't care if they have to stand on their head for a week to get the hand out, it's still $5000 of taxpayers money being given away.


Giving every child a fair start, on completion of the National Civic Service Program:

1/ An 18 year old is a taxpayer, a voter, and not a toddler. They should be treated accordingly.
2/ There is nothing 'fair' about taking from one group of people & giving to another using the power of the state.
3/ This is the first I've ever heard of the idea that 'a fair start' involves a suite a freebies + a $5000 hand out.

The pension gives money away and to a percentage of people who don't need it.
But apparently that's an entitlement. 🙄

[BlackPeter]

'Neither Left nor Right' but with Left wing socialistic & redistributive policies, and now people with Left wing perspectives are popping up in the thread to vent against anyone discussing the nuts and bolts of these policies. Apparently you are an "extreme right winger" if you don't agree with ever expanding socialism.

Just face it - if you whinge about "free" healthcare for our youth (which actually is in principle anyway implemented in NZ - just not very good, if you look at e.g. mental health and dentistry), than I suspect there are not many people standing politically to your right within the still democratic spectrum. Right? I guess, lets not argue about semantics, these are just the naked facts ...

Just give me the name of one democratic politician who stands to your political right. If you can't, than clearly you must be the extreme right. See?

[Daytr]

Nothing is actually free, that is what most people forget. It is your and mine money. It is not free. Tax is theft by any other definition. It is taking from the productive and redistributing to the unproductive. (to a point) We have gone too far the socialst way and the current state of affairs is a timely reminder that communism/socialism does not work long term and is not sustainable.

And yet inequality has increased...
Not so socialist especially being one of the few Western World countries without a CGT.

[ValueNZ]

And yet inequality has increased...
Not so socialist especially being one of the few Western World countries without a CGT.
Do you want perfect equality and if not, what is the right level of inequality?

[ValueNZ]

The next TOP policy drop: Free beer!
Haha too funny. That'd be popular with the youth voters

[Daytr]

Do you want perfect equality and if not, what is the right level of inequality?

Less inequality than we have now.
Working people being able to put food on the table, pay the rent, put fuel in the car etc & still have enough left over to save for a deposit to buy a house.

[BlackPeter]

Are there any TOP policies you are not a fan of, and is there anything about Manji you are dubious about?

Good question.

I probably would not have written all TOP policies as they are, but I think I can live with all of them.

I had myself to first think about this concept of investing into the youth, but I think it makes a lot of sense - and actually, it is not much more than most decent societies offer their youth anyway.

Obviously - it is at this stage a small group of volunteers writing this stuff and they don't have the armies of lawyers other taxpayer funded parties (already in parliament) command, so I am sure, there are lots of things which still need clarification.

However - I think they are good enough as expression of intent, and given that I don't expect them to get this time the absolute majority, I recon there will be plenty of opportunity to create any missing detail together with a coalition partner.

There are a number of areas where I just didn't found a TOP policy so far, i.e. I don't really know whether my view will align with theirs (and they might no know yet either :) ).

Raf Manji talked about liberalisation as well in the economy, which is good, but I am not sure I have seen yet documented policies about a policy framework to (de-)regulate our economy. There is however a high level economy policy with which I don't disagree ... its just a bit high level.

Re Manji ... still early days. But yes, I see in him less ideology and more common sense than in many other politicians I met so far, and I see him listening where others jump already to ideology defined conclusions.

Given that we are not talking about making him the next PM (well, not this year :) ) would I give him at least the benefit of the doubt I used to give as well to e.g. David Seymour when I voted for him (well, his party, I don't live in Epsom) when he first came into parliament. Unfortunately - David sold his soul to the gunlobby (and some other unpleasant groups) to increase his votes, but we can't really hold that against Raf, can we?

I think Raf is ready for a "trial round" in parliament and he and his party have lots of potential. Whether I still say that in three years from now, time will tell.

On the other hand (independent from Raf) - we clearly do need liberals in parliament to stabilise the boat. This consistent left - right and every time throwing away what the others did is just stupid.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Just face it - if you whinge about "free" healthcare for our youth (which actually is in principle anyway implemented in NZ - just not very good, if you look at e.g. mental health and dentistry), than I suspect there are not many people standing politically to your right within the still democratic spectrum. Right? I guess, lets not argue about semantics, these are just the naked facts ...

Just give me the name of one democratic politician who stands to your political right. If you can't, than clearly you must be the extreme right. See?

It's not just 'free healthcare for youth' though is it:

- Fully funded healthcare for young people, including GP visits and dental care.
- Free annual eye checks.
- Free mental health care (up to 5 sessions a year).
- Free public transport (buses, trains, ferries).
- $1,500 credit for e-bikes, scooters, and bikes.
- $5,000 tax-free savings boost at age 18 into a savings account through KiwiBank, which can be accessed for education, training or placed into a KiwiSaver account. ('To access the Universal Savings Boost, young people must complete a National Civic Service Program before age 23.')
This program is purportedly 'about future-proofing New Zealanders to become more resilient citizens through a focus on the 4 C’s: Conservation, Civil Defence, Community Service and Civics.')

The TOP policies are further to the Left than anything the established Left wing parties are proposing. So that doesn't make me 'extreme Right'. Unfortunately you are trying to sell TOP as centrist when the reality is something different.

The suite of bribes does not just extend to youth voters, TOP and Manji are also courting Christchurch voters with the lure of a $1 Billion spend up in that city -

We have a vision for a world-class Christchurch and Raf Manji wants to help deliver it.

Our investment proposals include:

A new South Island Cancer Center and Laboratory ($580m)
A new Mental Health and Trauma Center ($20m)
Shift to a Zero Emission Urban Bus Fleet by 2030 ($130m)
Roading and Footpath Repair Fund ($70m)
Hospital Car Parking ($30m)
150 new Community Constables ($45m)
10 new Police Kiosks ($5m)
A new South Island Police Training College ($40m)
Christchurch Cathedral and Arts Centre Repair Fund ($40m)
A new Primary/Secondary School ($40m)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Good question.

I probably would not have written all TOP policies as they are, but I think I can live with all of them.

I had myself to first think about this concept of investing into the youth, but I think it makes a lot of sense - and actually, it is not much more than most decent societies offer their youth anyway.

Obviously - it is at this stage a small group of volunteers writing this stuff and they don't have the armies of lawyers other taxpayer funded parties (already in parliament) command, so I am sure, there are lots of things which still need clarification.

However - I think they are good enough as expression of intent, and given that I don't expect them to get this time the absolute majority, I recon there will be plenty of opportunity to create any missing detail together with a coalition partner.

There are a number of areas where I just didn't found a TOP policy so far, i.e. I don't really know whether my view will align with theirs (and they might no know yet either :) ).

He talked about liberalisation as well in the economy, which is good, but I am not sure I have seen yet documented policies.

Re Manji ... still early days. But yes, I see in him less ideologie and more common sense than in many other politicians I met so far, and I see him listening where others jump alredy to ideology defined conclusions.

Given that we are not talking about making him the next PM (well, not this year) would I give him at least the benefit of the doubt I used to give as well to e.g. David Seymour when I voted for him (well, his party, I don't live in Epsom) when he first came into parliament. Unfortunately - David sold his soul to the gunlobby (and some other unpleasant groups) to increase his votes, but we can't really hold that against Raf, can we?

I think Raf is ready for a "trial round" in parliament and he and his party have lots of potential. Whether I still say that in three years from now, time will tell.

On the other hand (independent from Raf) - we clearly do need liberals in parliament to stabilise the boat. This consistent left - right and every time throwing away what the others did is just stupid.

I still don't get this thing about 'liberals', and it seems you are just selecting a purposely vague term to muddy the waters. Surely if you saw this TOP outfit as 'centrist' you would be saying that instead.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Less inequality than we have now.
Working people being able to put food on the table, pay the rent, put fuel in the car etc & still have enough left over to save for a deposit to buy a house.

'Less inequality'
'Fair'
'Social justice'

Undefinable and immeasurable concepts. Bob has a house with 4 bedrooms, Rose has a house with 3 bedrooms. It's not 'fair', it's not 'just', it's 'not equal'. The endless Quixotic quest by daytr and his Leftist fellow travellers continues.

[SBQ]

Actually - cheers for posting the interview.

Reading however what you heard and comparing listening to what Raf said are two different things. I'd encourage anybody to listen to the interview by themselves. I can't hear anything which would put Maori interests above other interests, and hey, what's wrong with supporting those who are still at the bottom of our economic and social order? If they get a chance to move into better housing and get better education and better jobs, we all will win.

But, btw - I don't think there is an expectation that everybody likes TOP's policies (nobody can please everybody :) ). So, if after checking you don't like them, this is ok. Its a democracy and liberal parties get rarely more than 10 or 15%. We do need as well lefties and even some of the right people in a functioning democratic system. However - in successful democracies there normally are liberal people involved in government.

And hey, I don't like many policies from e.g. ACT or the Greens either, so why should people who love those support TOP?

What do you mean? I even posted the video time mark from what he said. He completely ignores the fact that in NZ, Maori are not all equal. You have the rich Iwis like Ngai Tahu (for which Mr Manji) did not elaborate. While myself I provided clear examples of the problems between Maori that certainly shows, his idea is nothing more than a fairy tale. Again, his point is to increase Maori poor or disadvantaged to give them a fair chance. Well let me say again, the Maori family we provided aid to through out school PTA trust would be sent the door if they visited Ngai Tahu's HQ. The idiocy this politician says, nothing more than a smooth talker without real world evidence.

[Logen Ninefingers]

What do you mean? I even posted the video time mark from what he said. He completely ignores the fact that in NZ, Maori are not all equal. You have the rich Iwis like Ngai Tahu (for which Mr Manji) did not elaborate. While myself I provided clear examples of the problems between Maori that certainly shows, his idea is nothing more than a fairy tale. Again, his point is to increase Maori poor or disadvantaged to give them a fair chance. Well let me say again, the Maori family we provided aid to through out school PTA trust would be sent the door if they visited Ngai Tahu's HQ. The idiocy this politician says, nothing more than a smooth talker without real world evidence.

The TOP fans won't like your opinion. You are supposed to say something like "Raf is very sincere, genuinely wants the best for our country, and has fresh ideas and a new vision that will take us forward as one country. TOP want to invest in youth, invest in one of our iconic cities, they want to work with all sides to create a wonderful country where we can all fulfill our potential".

[justakiwi]

You are being obtuse for the sake of it.

You are making it blatantly clear that you are proud to have no social conscience at all. You are "in it" for yourself only, and do not give a rat's arse about your fellow Kiwis. You worked hard for what you have and anyone who doesn't have that, simply did not work hard enough.

Why do you feel the need to label people? Why can't you just accept the fact that we can't all be lawyers, or doctors, or engineers, or even nurses or teachers. For society to function as you need it to, we also need people to collect our rubbish, build our roads, process our meat/fish, clean our schools/hospitals, care for our elderly folk etc. People work bloody hard in these kinds of jobs, but on below average wages, so no matter how hard they work, how much overtime they do, or how many extra shifts they put their hand up for, they are at a financial disadvantage. If being a leftie means being willing for my tax dollars to assist those people as needed, then yes, I guess I'm a leftie. I do have a social conscience. But in terms of my political views, I do not class myself as left. As I have said before, I am somewhere in the middle - sometimes leaning left and sometimes leaning right - depending on what the issue is we are discussing.

I note, that you have not been forthcoming in revealing which party you intend to vote for. Some of us have been transparent and honest, and have willingly shared that information, knowing full well that people like you, would use it against us. How about you grow some balls and tell us which party you actually support? Or are you too chicken to make yourself vulnerable?


'Less inequality'
'Fair'
'Social justice'

Undefinable and immeasurable concepts. Bob has a house with 4 bedrooms, Rose has a house with 3 bedrooms. It's not 'fair', it's not 'just', it's 'not equal'. The endless Quixotic quest by daytr and his Leftist fellow travellers continues.

[Aaron]

TOP want to invest in youth, invest in one of our iconic cities, they want to work with all sides to create a wonderful country where we can all fulfill our potential".

Really? I would vote for that.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Really? I would vote for that.

You respond to vacuous hyperbole, and indeed you are voting accordingly. And good for you.

[Azz]

The more clueless people who vote for TOP the better! Two ticks TOP!

[Logen Ninefingers]

You are being obtuse for the sake of it.

You are making it blatantly clear that you are proud to have no social conscience at all. You are "in it" for yourself only, and do not give a rat's arse about your fellow Kiwis. You worked hard for what you have and anyone who doesn't have that, simply did not work hard enough.

Why do you feel the need to label people? Why can't you just accept the fact that we can't all be lawyers, or doctors, or engineers, or even nurses or teachers. For society to function as you need it to, we also need people to collect our rubbish, build our roads, process our meat/fish, clean our schools/hospitals, care for our elderly folk etc. People work bloody hard in these kinds of jobs, but on below average wages, so no matter how hard they work, how much overtime they do, or how many extra shifts they put their hand up for, they are at a financial disadvantage. If being a leftie means being willing for my tax dollars to assist those people as needed, then yes, I guess I'm a leftie. I do have a social conscience. But in terms of my political views, I do not class myself as left. As I have said before, I am somewhere in the middle - sometimes leaning left and sometimes leaning right - depending on what the issue is we are discussing.

I note, that you have not been forthcoming in revealing which party you intend to vote for. Some of us have been transparent and honest, and have willingly shared that information, knowing full well that people like you, would use it against us. How about you grow some balls and tell us which party you actually support? Or are you too chicken to make yourself vulnerable?

A 'social conscience' means you support a social welfare safety net & the collective services that a government arranges to provide for all citizens, including law and order, education, health care, social housing.
What you are wanting is something different, something going far beyond that, extending to an endless parade and freebies and giveaways paid for through 'Robin Hood' redistribution via taxation settings.

You've gone on into a long and needless diatribe about various lowly paid people. I'm here in this thread to discuss TOP's socialistic giveaways to youth and to Christchurch city.

Moreover, your tax dollars are not going 'to help people in need'; NZ can't pay its way so we borrow to do that.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The more clueless people who vote for TOP the better! Two ticks TOP!

Well I imagine that their support will mainly come from younger people + people who live in Christchurch. Some disillusioned Labour voters will also make the jump to TOP.

[BlackPeter]

It's not just 'free healthcare for youth' though is it:

- Fully funded healthcare for young people, including GP visits and dental care.
- Free annual eye checks.
- Free mental health care (up to 5 sessions a year).
- Free public transport (buses, trains, ferries).
- $1,500 credit for e-bikes, scooters, and bikes.
- $5,000 tax-free savings boost at age 18 into a savings account through KiwiBank, which can be accessed for education, training or placed into a KiwiSaver account. ('To access the Universal Savings Boost, young people must complete a National Civic Service Program before age 23.')
This program is purportedly 'about future-proofing New Zealanders to become more resilient citizens through a focus on the 4 C’s: Conservation, Civil Defence, Community Service and Civics.')

The TOP policies are further to the Left than anything the established Left wing parties are proposing. So that doesn't make me 'extreme Right'. Unfortunately you are trying to sell TOP as centrist when the reality is something different.

The suite of bribes does not just extend to youth voters, TOP and Manji are also courting Christchurch voters with the lure of a $1 Billion spend up in that city -

We have a vision for a world-class Christchurch and Raf Manji wants to help deliver it.

Our investment proposals include:

A new South Island Cancer Center and Laboratory ($580m)
A new Mental Health and Trauma Center ($20m)
Shift to a Zero Emission Urban Bus Fleet by 2030 ($130m)
Roading and Footpath Repair Fund ($70m)
Hospital Car Parking ($30m)
150 new Community Constables ($45m)
10 new Police Kiosks ($5m)
A new South Island Police Training College ($40m)
Christchurch Cathedral and Arts Centre Repair Fund ($40m)
A new Primary/Secondary School ($40m)


Sorry - you are trolling. We discussed all of this before. The first three bullets for the teal card are clearly part of free health care, and the $5000 are not a freebie but a thank you (and subject to) doing the social service.

We talked as well (earlier) about the Christchurch plan. So - why do you think it is ok National and Labour are pumping many billions into Auckland, but if TOP proposes a much more frugal plan for Christchurch this is wrong? I explained as well to you that this is from Raf's plan for his Ilam electorate. No doubt - the other TOP MP's will develop plans for their respective regions.

You are spreading misleading information. I am disappointed, I thought you might be better than a troll. I was wrong.

On the other hand - great to see the extreme right wing trolls so active on this thread. I didn't really thought you guys are so much afraid of just a small number of decent liberal politicans.

Given however that chicken Luxon and gun supporter Seymour seem to loose votes by the poll, I understand your excitement :);

[Azz]

Sorry - you are trolling. We discussed all of this before. The first three bullets are clearly part of free health care, and the $5000 are not a freebie but a thank you (and subject to) doing the social serice.

You are spreading misinformation. I am disappointed, I thought you might be better than a troll. I was wrong.

Eventually, you call anyone who dares disagree with you - a troll.

[justakiwi]

You have no idea what I want. Once again, you are making a blanket assumption about me, purely because I have expressed support for some of TOP's policies.

What I actually want, is change. Real change. Not the continual swing back and forth between a National coalition to a Labour coalition. Do you have any idea how much money we waste every time we go from one to the other? Every time a new government comes in and scraps multiple "projects" the previous government put in place, there is a huge cost involved in doing that. Both in money and time. It doesn't matter whether you think one is better than the other. It makes no difference over the long term. I am 63 and have experienced this for 40+ years. I have also seen it from the perspective of someone working in the government sector over that time. Do you know how many times the government of the day, has tried to "overhaul" Tamariki Ora (previously CYF) for example? I don't think the general public has any understanding of the futility of these "projects." Governments have been trying to "fix" our child protection service for decades, but they can't. Because nobody actually knows how to fix it!

I want a government that does things differently. I want a government that can genuinely look at what we have been doing, recognise that it hasn't worked, and think outside the square to improve it. I want a government that focusses on what they have to offer Kiwis, not a government that bases its election campaign and policies, purely on shredding the opposition. A government that sells itself based on its merits, not on opposition failures. I want a government that has the vision to tackle things like social housing - the way Simplicity has with their "Simplicity Living" initiative. Simplicity is set to achieve more, than either National or Labour have for decades. We need innovation, creativity, and a government that has the balls to do things differently.

I am not saying TOP is ready to be that government. But I am saying, they seem to be the only party right now with any​ vision whatsoever.





What you are wanting is something different, something going far beyond that, extending to an endless parade and freebies and giveaways paid for through 'Robin Hood' redistribution via taxation settings.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sorry - you are trolling. We discussed all of this before. The first three bullets for the teal card are clearly part of free health care, and the $5000 are not a freebie but a thank you (and subject to) doing the social service.

We talked as well (earlier) about the Christchurch plan. So - why do you think it is ok National and Labour are pumping many billions into Auckland, but if TOP proposes a much more frugal plan for Christchurch this is wrong? I explained as well to you that this is from Raf's plan for his Ilam electorate. No doubt - the other TOP MP's will develop plans for their respective regions.

You are spreading misleading information. I am disappointed, I thought you might be better than a troll. I was wrong.

On the other hand - great to see the extreme right wing trolls so active on this thread. I didn't really thought you guys are so much afraid of just a small number of decent liberal politicans.

Given however that chicken Luxon and gun supporter Seymour seem to loose votes by the poll, I understand your excitement :);

So, yes indeed, this continiung discussion of TOP's policies is now described as trolling - and has earnt me a 'negative reputation' attack by Black Peter claiming he 'debunked' my points previously.

Very, very disappointing that someone chooses to conduct themselves this way.

Claiming that a $5000 payment is merely a 'thank you' is disingenuous to the point of blatant dishonesty. TOP themselves describe the giveaway as the Universal Savings Boost.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Eventually, you call anyone who dares disagree with you - a troll.

And attacks with a 'negative reputation' stinger. Nobody else on the site conducts themselves in that way.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You have no idea what I want. Once again, you are making a blanket assumption about me, purely because I have expressed support for some of TOP's policies.

What I actually want, is change. Real change. Not the continual swing back and forth between a National coalition to a Labour coalition. Do you have any idea how much money we waste every time we go from one to the other? Every time a new government comes in and scraps multiple "projects" the previous government put in place, there is a huge cost involved in doing that. Both in money and time. It doesn't matter whether you think one is better than the other. It makes no difference over the long term. I am 63 and have experienced this for 40+ years. I have also seen it from the perspective of someone working in the government sector over that time. Do you know how many times the government of the day, has tried to "overhaul" Tamariki Ora (previously CYF) for example? I don't think the general public has any understanding of the futility of these "projects." Governments have been trying to "fix" our child protection service for decades, but they can't. Because nobody actually knows how to fix it!

I want a government that does things differently. I want a government that can genuinely look at what we have been doing, recognise that it hasn't worked, and think outside the square to improve it. I want a government that focusses on what they have to offer Kiwis, not a government that bases its election campaign and policies, purely on shredding the opposition. A government that sells itself based on its merits, not on opposition failures. I want a government that has the vision to tackle things like social housing - the way Simplicity has with their "Simplicity Living" initiative. Simplicity is set to achieve more, than either National or Labour have for decades. We need innovation, creativity, and a government that has the balls to do things differently.

I am not saying TOP is ready to be that government. But I am saying, they seem to be the only party right now with any​ vision whatsoever.

I still don't see what TOP's vision is, other than very carefully targeted bribes aimed at the groups it is seeking to harvest the votes of.

[BlackPeter]

What do you mean? I even posted the video time mark from what he said. He completely ignores the fact that in NZ, Maori are not all equal. You have the rich Iwis like Ngai Tahu (for which Mr Manji) did not elaborate. While myself I provided clear examples of the problems between Maori that certainly shows, his idea is nothing more than a fairy tale. Again, his point is to increase Maori poor or disadvantaged to give them a fair chance. Well let me say again, the Maori family we provided aid to through out school PTA trust would be sent the door if they visited Ngai Tahu's HQ. The idiocy this politician says, nothing more than a smooth talker without real world evidence.

Well, you are clearly an angry person, however - what has your anger to do with his response of how to help the Maori at the bottom of the ladder, after being asked how to help them?

I didn't hear him saying that we need to support all Maori (including the fat cats), did you?

He just acknowledged that the percentage of poor people has a higher Maori ratio (which is correct) and he made some suggestions how to help them.

Nothing wrong with that.

... and I thought the PC brigade is cracy, but you extreme right guys are still much worse: Looks like anybody who does not fully and completely describe the world like you see it gets attacked.

Real world experience? Well, I think working in the City Council he saw a lot of the real world. He worked as well a long time with the victims of the Christchurch mosque attacks. This is the real world, and parties like ACT will make this real world much worse and more cruel. Semi-automatic weapons for every idiot ...

Do you have any real world experience or do you just talk about the chatter you hear in your right wing rabbit hole?

[ValueNZ]

So, yes indeed, this continiung discussion of TOP's policies is now described as trolling - and has earnt me a 'negative reputation' attack by Black Peter claiming he 'debunked' my points previously.

Very, very disappointing that someone chooses to conduct themselves this way.

Claiming that a $5000 payment is merely a 'thank you' is disingenuous to the point of blatant dishonesty. TOP themselves describe the giveaway as the Universal Savings Boost.
Not sure what you posted to deserve negative reputation, you merely looked at policy and gave a logical reason as to why you opposed to it. Keep up the high quality posts

[Aaron]

You respond to vacuous hyperbole.

Maybe, I respond to your posts.

A lot of discussion for a party that is not likely to get into parliament. If you are not careful your posts will put off TOP voters and there is 1-2% going to other left leaning parties who will be in Parliament.

Although as Azz points out I do appreciate the discussion as it would be good if I knew what I was voting for.

[justakiwi]

Whatever buddy. You are another Balance, and you are becoming equally as tiresome and boring. I no longer have the energy or will, to debate with you.



I still don't see what TOP's vision is, other than very carefully targeted bribes aimed at the groups it is seeking to harvest the votes of.

[BlackPeter]

I still don't see what TOP's vision is, other than very carefully targeted bribes aimed at the groups it is seeking to harvest the votes of.

Well, this statement tells us a lot about you.

Or do you mean you didn't come in your intensive research across their TOP page?

https://www.top.org.nz/about_top

I hope your company research is more careful than that ... :) ;

[BlackPeter]

Whatever buddy. You are another Balance, and you are becoming equally as tiresome and boring. I no longer have the energy or will, to debate with you.

I guess he is doing what every troll does - try to suck as much time and energy out of the people he tries to engage.

[blackcap]

You have no idea what I want. Once again, you are making a blanket assumption about me, purely because I have expressed support for some of TOP's policies.

What I actually want, is change. Real change. Not the continual swing back and forth between a National coalition to a Labour coalition. Do you have any idea how much money we waste every time we go from one to the other? Every time a new government comes in and scraps multiple "projects" the previous government put in place, there is a huge cost involved in doing that. Both in money and time. It doesn't matter whether you think one is better than the other. It makes no difference over the long term. I am 63 and have experienced this for 40+ years. I have also seen it from the perspective of someone working in the government sector over that time. Do you know how many times the government of the day, has tried to "overhaul" Tamariki Ora (previously CYF) for example? I don't think the general public has any understanding of the futility of these "projects." Governments have been trying to "fix" our child protection service for decades, but they can't. Because nobody actually knows how to fix it!

I want a government that does things differently. I want a government that can genuinely look at what we have been doing, recognise that it hasn't worked, and think outside the square to improve it. I want a government that focusses on what they have to offer Kiwis, not a government that bases its election campaign and policies, purely on shredding the opposition. A government that sells itself based on its merits, not on opposition failures. I want a government that has the vision to tackle things like social housing - the way Simplicity has with their "Simplicity Living" initiative. Simplicity is set to achieve more, than either National or Labour have for decades. We need innovation, creativity, and a government that has the balls to do things differently.

I am not saying TOP is ready to be that government. But I am saying, they seem to be the only party right now with any​ vision whatsoever.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. We are looking to the wrong people to fix our problems. Government is not the answer.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Well, you are clearly an angry person, however - what has your anger to do with his response of how to help the Maori at the bottom of the ladder, after being asked how to help them?

I didn't hear him saying that we need to support all Maori (including the fat cats), did you?

He just acknowledged that the percentage of poor people has a higher Maori ratio (which is correct) and he made some suggestions how to help them.

Nothing wrong with that.

... and I thought the PC brigade is cracy, but you extreme right guys are still much worse: Looks like anybody who does not fully and completely describe the world like you see it gets attacked.

Real world experience? Well, I think working in the City Council he saw a lot of the real world. He worked as well a long time with the victims of the Christchurch mosque attacks. This is the real world, and parties like ACT will make this real world much worse and more cruel. Semi-automatic weapons for every idiot ...

Do you have any real world experience or do you just talk about the chatter you hear in your right wing rabbit hole?

I think if anyone is angry it's you. I've never been as petty and vindictive as to go and give someone a 'negative reputation' attack like you do, and it honestly reveals much about your personality. You get irritated by someone challenging you, and you come back with vagueness like this 'liberal' term you use, or endless spin and justifications about why TOP is so great and their giveaways aren't blatant bribes, and then the ad hominem stuff begins with the 'extreme right wing' nonsense.
Taxation is a form of theft using state power. I support it to fund our much-needed social welfare system, roading, policing, healthcare, education system.
Other than that, I don't have to support a laundry list of socialistic giveaways dressed up as 'investment' and 'vision'. There's nothing 'extreme right wing' about it at all. I utterly reject the phoney labels you seek to attach to me.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Whatever buddy. You are another Balance, and you are becoming equally as tiresome and boring. I no longer have the energy or will, to debate with you.

You've never debated me yet.

[BlackPeter]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. We are looking to the wrong people to fix our problems. Government is not the answer.

Well, I guess so far we just learned that neither the Left nor the Right are able to bring us forward. After this lesson it shouldn't require an Einstein to use instead the centre to bring us forward.

For most problems the best solution is not one of the extremes, but in the middle.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I guess he is doing what every troll does - try to suck as much time and energy out of the people he tries to engage.

Well I actually post TOP's policies....and you come charging in defending them and calling others "extreme right wing" if we don't all fall head over heels in love with TOP.

It appears that being a troll is just a matter of perspective. And the new 'last refuge of a scoundrel' in these modern times is to label someone else a troll to the hopes of smearing them.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Well, I guess so far we just learned that neither the Left nor the Right are able to bring us forward. After this lesson it shouldn't require an Einstein to use instead the centre to bring us forward.

For most problems the best solution is not one of the extremes, but in the middle.

I'm not sure who the 'we' is and what they have 'just learned'. TOP have some extreme Left wing policies, so they are definitely not in the centre no matter how much they may claim to be.
At the end of the day, centrist parties can expound a vague but 'nice' sounding vision of 'common sense' (common sense according to who though?) or 'togther into the future' (what does it even mean?) but they do not stand for anything in particular so they usually wither away and disappear in short order.

[SBQ]

Well, you are clearly an angry person, however - what has your anger to do with his response of how to help the Maori at the bottom of the ladder, after being asked how to help them?

I didn't hear him saying that we need to support all Maori (including the fat cats), did you?

He just acknowledged that the percentage of poor people has a higher Maori ratio (which is correct) and he made some suggestions how to help them.

Nothing wrong with that.

... and I thought the PC brigade is cracy, but you extreme right guys are still much worse: Looks like anybody who does not fully and completely describe the world like you see it gets attacked.

Real world experience? Well, I think working in the City Council he saw a lot of the real world. He worked as well a long time with the victims of the Christchurch mosque attacks. This is the real world, and parties like ACT will make this real world much worse and more cruel. Semi-automatic weapons for every idiot ...

Do you have any real world experience or do you just talk about the chatter you hear in your right wing rabbit hole?

In bold, did you hear about the part where wanted to start a Maori banking scheme with Ngai Tahu being the lead administrators? This is what makes me angry, clueless politicians that have only local experience, with no examples of how they failed abroad.

Working in PTA is purely a volunteer effort and no one is getting paid (unlike all those 6 figure income salaries we see with CCC). So I can tell you thing or 2 what really causes poverty in NZ when dealing with so many low income families. I doubt this Mr Manji has ever had the day of mixing among the poor ; what level of charity has he done? It seems to be he looks like a guy that would have his hands in the money bag by aligning with the elite Maori, oh we've seen this thing before under Labour with it's Maori caucus (awarding contracts to family members being a conflict of interest). I don't trust this guy much in the same way as how Donald Trump speaks.

Again, watch the interview again, he specifically says he wants to help the Maori poor while trying to align them with the Ngai Tahu standards. But the fact is every Iwi operates differently and if you ask me about the Ngai Tahu, they no longer serve as a charity but instead, as a mega corporation conglomerate. Such an entity in Canada under charity trust rules would have CGT applied at the 21st year in the trust's existence.

Let me ask you this question. What progress has NZ's WINZ / Dole system proved among the needy and low income poor? I would say, very little and by that metric if it proved anything, then why would giving $5,000 prove to be a game changer?

I would rather all the politicians stop talking about hand outs because it's a waste of time. All I want for this election is a tax cut because in my view, i'm sick of paying taxes to things that have become wasteful spending by the gov't. I want to keep more or my hard earned money in my pocket and hope that if the gov't sees less tax revenue to work with, then they may have to think real hard on where to spend it.

Oh and the issue of Top being neither left or right is a faux. Any action they do will have an effect that can be deemed left or right. Such as giving $ and taxing more $ in a Robin Hood fashion.

[Logen Ninefingers]

TOP are wanting to implement a 'bold' new tax plan, including a 'land value tax'.

They claim they will implement a 'fair' tax system. (Again, according to what definition of 'fair'? One persons 'fair' is another persons 'unfair'.)


https://www.top.org.nz/fair-tax-system

We will use bold tax reform to re-orient our economy towards productive work and away from unproductive land ownership with:

A land value tax at 0.75% of the value of urban residential land, paid annually.

- Commercial, rural, conservation and Māori land would be excluded.
- Superannuants could opt to defer payment until there is a change in ownership of the property.
- The tax switch is estimated to raise approximately $7 billion p.a. - making our three-part plan fiscally neutral.
- We recognise that a Land Value Tax is a big policy change for a culture and economy based on home ownership. But it’s the right thing to do. Our dysfunctional housing market is slowly separating our country into have & have not’s and holding back our economic potential. We owe it to the generations of Kiwis who come after us, to change it now.

[Logen Ninefingers]

TOP are wanting to implement a 'bold' new tax plan, including a 'land value tax'.

They claim they will implement a 'fair' tax system. (Again, according to what definition of 'fair'? One persons 'fair' is another persons 'unfair'.)


https://www.top.org.nz/fair-tax-system

We will use bold tax reform to re-orient our economy towards productive work and away from unproductive land ownership with:

A land value tax at 0.75% of the value of urban residential land, paid annually.

- Commercial, rural, conservation and Māori land would be excluded.
- Superannuants could opt to defer payment until there is a change in ownership of the property.
- The tax switch is estimated to raise approximately $7 billion p.a. - making our three-part plan fiscally neutral.
- We recognise that a Land Value Tax is a big policy change for a culture and economy based on home ownership. But it’s the right thing to do. Our dysfunctional housing market is slowly separating our country into have & have not’s and holding back our economic potential. We owe it to the generations of Kiwis who come after us, to change it now.

I've run the TOP tax calculator on some purely arbitrary numbers, an income of $65,000 pa and a house valued by QV at $710,000

This seems like a modest income and a modest house value.

The calculator spat out the following based on a reduced income tax plus a land value tax:

Under TOP's Fair Tax policy, your tax bill will be $2,805 more per year (or $54 each week).

[blackcap]

I've run the TOP tax calculator on some purely arbitrary numbers, an income of $65,000 pa and a house valued by QV at $710,000

This seems like a modest income and a modest house value.

The calculator spat out the following based on a reduced income tax plus a land value tax:

Under TOP's Fair Tax policy, your tax bill will be $2,805 more per year (or $54 each week).

That seems like more theft. TOP are fringe left as far as I am concerned and will not get my vote.

[Daytr]

'Less inequality'
'Fair'
'Social justice'

Undefinable and immeasurable concepts. Bob has a house with 4 bedrooms, Rose has a house with 3 bedrooms. It's not 'fair', it's not 'just', it's 'not equal'. The endless Quixotic quest by daytr and his Leftist fellow travellers continues.

No one is saying everyone has to be exactly equal in outcome, so your examples are redundant & quite frannkly overly simplistic. People make choices which will impact their outcomes.
But working people should be able to get ahead and currently many can't.
This has been an issue that both sides of the political divide have contributed to.

[SBQ]

That seems like more theft. TOP are fringe left as far as I am concerned and will not get my vote.

What kind of tax does a home owner pay in rates or property tax? Essentially this 0.75% tax adds to the already increasing rates people pay (in some areas like 10% / year).

[Logen Ninefingers]

No one is saying everyone has to be exactly equal in outcome, so your examples are redundant & quite frannkly overly simplistic. People make choices which will impact their outcomes.
But working people should be able to get ahead and currently many can't.
This has been an issue that both sides of the political divide have contributed to.

It is the Leftist thinking that is redundant and quite frankly over simplistic. 'Social justice' and 'fair' cannot be defined, as they are entirely subjective. One persons justice is another persons injustice, one persons fair is another persons unfair. TOP may say their tax plan is 'fair', there will be plenty of people who this it is 'unfair'.

[Logen Ninefingers]

No one is saying everyone has to be exactly equal in outcome, so your examples are redundant & quite frannkly overly simplistic. People make choices which will impact their outcomes.
But working people should be able to get ahead and currently many can't.
This has been an issue that both sides of the political divide have contributed to.

'Get ahead' by what measurement? Should they be able to take out an $800,000 mortgage and then interest rates go up and they can't 'get ahead' so who is to blame and what is the remedy? If Dave decides to pay $1 million for a house while Steve remains flatting as he does not think it is a prudent decision to make on his $75,000 salary and low deposit, who is to blame if Dave is struggling? Should we charge Dave a 'land value tax' to compound his problems? Should we take money from Steve and give it to Dave because Dave feels he cannot 'get ahead' at the moment?

[Daytr]

'Get ahead' by what measurement? Should they be able to take out an $800,000 mortgage and then interest rates go up and they can't 'get ahead' so who is to blame and what is the remedy? If Dave decides to pay $1 million for a house while Steve remains flatting as he does not think it is a prudent decision to make on his $75,000 salary and low deposit, who is to blame if Dave is struggling? Should we charge Dave a 'land value tax' to compound his problems? Should we take money from Steve and give it to Dave because Dave feels he cannot 'get ahead' at the moment?

Your first examples were redundant and so are these.
Let's just say on average...
Does any party give exact prescription of each individual outcomes?
What you are trying is a mere diversion tactic & not a particularly clever one at that.
We're you a school teacher by chance?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Your first examples were redundant and so are these.
Let's just say on average...
Does any party give exact prescription of each individual outcomes?
What you are trying is a mere diversion tactic & not a particularly clever one at that.
We're you a school teacher by chance?

I think you are one attempting diversion tactics. You can’t articulate yourself, and attempt to blame me for that.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Abe Gray is number 10 on TOP's list and is standing as their candidate in the electorate of North Shore.

-----

Abraham Gabriel Gray (born 16 March 1982) is an American-born New Zealand cannabis activist, politician and founder of the Whakamana Cannabis Museum, New Zealand's first and only cannabis museum. Gray was a University of Otago lecturer and tutor for over a decade before founding the museum.[3][4]

Gray has been a high-profile cannabis activist and protester for almost two decades.[5][6]

Gray ran for The Opportunities Party in Wellington Central in the 2020 New Zealand general election,[54][55][56] coming fourth with 1,031 votes,[57] and led the Yes We Cannabis campaign as a spinoff of Start The Conversation.[58] Gray also served as The Opportunities Party's 2020 cannabis spokesperson, and was on a mission to be "the first Minister of Cannabis".[59] Gray says he supported the Cannabis Legalisation and Control Bill,[60] and believes it was important to include edibles in the legislation to give people an alternative to smoking or vaping.[61] Gray believes a regionalised model to cannabis is worth exploring.[62]

As of 2021, Gray lives in Auckland, and was looking for a retail space to open the fourth iteration of the museum.[63] The 2020 New Zealand cannabis referendum didn't pass, but Gray plans to open the museum again in Auckland.[6][64]

In August 2023, Abe Gray was selected by The Opportunities Party as their candidate for the North Shore in the 2023 New Zealand general election. He ranked tenth on the party list.[65]

[Baa_Baa]

An interesting read today, thank you all for your insightful and sometimes passionate posts.

[dln]

I've run the TOP tax calculator on some purely arbitrary numbers, an income of $65,000 pa and a house valued by QV at $710,000

This seems like a modest income and a modest house value.

The calculator spat out the following based on a reduced income tax plus a land value tax:

Under TOP's Fair Tax policy, your tax bill will be $2,805 more per year (or $54 each week).

The land tax is proposed to be on the land value, not the 'house value'.

[Getty]

You can dress it up as much as you like, but I'm going TOPless!

[dln]

So I can tell you thing or 2 what really causes poverty in NZ when dealing with so many low income families. I doubt this Mr Manji has ever had the day of mixing among the poor ; what level of charity has he done? It seems to be he looks like a guy that would have his hands in the money bag by aligning with the elite Maori, oh we've seen this thing before under Labour with it's Maori caucus (awarding contracts to family members being a conflict of interest). I don't trust this guy much in the same way as how Donald Trump speaks.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vo8dWB7djVw&list=PLKzyMX9pCGMuszNm2n2G9Tmfy6cYf1KKd&index=3&pp=iAQB

[Logen Ninefingers]

The land tax is proposed to be on the land value, not the 'house value'.

Oh dear, you haven’t done your homework. I have. You put in an example salary & address, the TOP calculator does the rest -

https://taxswitch.nz/

[dln]

Sorry, free this, free that, and free the other thing is extreme socialism, extreme Leftism, and it is most certainly that which will "kill our country".

I hope you chastised your mother for being a rotten socialist for just giving you all that free breast milk that you never worked for.

Actually, considering your current attitude, maybe she didn't ... ;)

[justakiwi]

Excellent interview. This is a guy with a hell of a lot of real life experience in a very wide range of situations. Thank you!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vo8dWB7djVw&list=PLKzyMX9pCGMuszNm2n2G9Tmfy6cYf1KKd&index=3&pp=iAQB

[dln]

Oh dear, you haven’t done your homework. I have. You put in an example salary & address, the TOP calculator does the rest -

https://taxswitch.nz/

Look closer.
It calculates on the land value, not the capital value.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I hope you chastised your mother for being a rotten socialist for just giving you all that free breast milk that you never worked for.

Actually, considering your current attitude, maybe she didn't ... ;)

She wasn’t forced into it by the power of the state. Socialists are happy to vote for money to be taken off someone else and given to them, and that transfer takes place via state coercion.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Look closer.
It calculates on the land value, not the capital value.

Yeah, the land value.

[dln]

Yeah, the land value.

Which is not what you said before.

I've run the TOP tax calculator on some purely arbitrary numbers, an income of $65,000 pa and a house valued by QV at $710,000

[ValueNZ]

Housing too expensive?

Place a tax on it. That'll surely make it cheaper!

[dln]

Discourages land banking and speculation and encourages intensification.
Makes it a less attractive "investment".

[Daytr]

I don't agree with TOPs land tax however you are never going to agree with every policy a party puts forward.
I hope they return to a CGT over time.

[ValueNZ]

Discourages land banking and speculation and encourages intensification.
Makes it a less attractive "investment".
Bad luck to those renters who face higher rent payments, right?

Seriously the solution is to encourage private developers to build as many homes as quick as possible by stripping down the RMA, consent laws, allowing denser housing in residential areas ect. It's a supply side issue. Labour/National have focused on demand side solutions and have failed at getting housing to an affordable price.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I don't agree with TOPs land tax however you are never going to agree with every policy a party puts forward.
I hope they return to a CGT over time.

So you like the ‘Christchurch Plan’, ‘the Teal Card’, and the tougher laws on vaping? Transformative policies no doubt. I can’t see a major party coming up with this type of ‘out of the box’ thinking.

https://www.top.org.nz/vaping

[Baa_Baa]

Look closer.
It calculates on the land value, not the capital value.

Which is confounding in itself. If others situation is similar, the land value of my place is way less than the 'improvements' value [buildings on the property] (that the council rates combine to determine the 'capital value', ergo how much local tax you pay [rates] on what you apparently own) - even if you don't actually own it - just control it while actually the bank owns it until you pay it off, unless you can't or don't pay, then the bank who owns it takes over.

'Real Estate', translated, is the estate of the royals. They gave us access (the law) the rights to occupy land and property for the mere sum of capital acquisition(which most borrow from banks to achieve), PLUS taxes [rates] in perpetuity for what we occupy, and pay those rates [taxes] in perpetuity, even when we pay off all our mortgages and actually own it. Nice rort.

Too complicated and imprecise (perpetuating the norm, like rates calculations). Basically it's saying some minion in the local council, that is not standardised nationwide, has a spreadsheet that decides what the land value of your property is, whether you actually own it or not, should be taxed on that land, in addition to the rates you already pay.

What? None of it makes sense when you break it down to current practice, which doesn't make much sense already. Sounds like another Robin Hood tax on top of what we already pay in rates.

[dln]

Bad luck to those renters who face higher rent payments, right? Indeed.
I can't see any plan that will fix that overnight (unless you think the Greens rent controls are are sane approach).
The asset structure needs to change, not just have more sticking plasters applied.

Seriously the solution is to encourage private developers to build as many homes as quick as possible by stripping down the RMA, consent laws, allowing denser housing in residential areas ect. It's a supply side issue. Labour/National have focused on demand side solutions and have failed at getting housing to an affordable price.Agree, and a land tax is another incentive to get as many rentable dwellings on a given bit of dirt as quickly as possible.

[Daytr]

So you like the ‘Christchurch Plan’, ‘the Teal Card’, and the tougher laws on vaping? Transformative policies no doubt. I can’t see a major party coming up with this type of ‘out of the box’ thinking.

https://www.top.org.nz/vaping

I think that is what TOP is about.
Challenging the status quo and their progressive policies / ideas is exactly what NZ needs.

[ValueNZ]

Indeed.
I can't see any plan that will fix that overnight (unless you think the Greens rent controls are are sane approach).
The asset structure needs to change, not just have more sticking plasters applied.
Agree, and a land tax is another incentive to get as many rentable dwellings on a given bit of dirt as quickly as possible.
You and I have very different ideas of what incentive structures are.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I think that is what TOP is about.
Challenging the status quo and their progressive policies / ideas is exactly what NZ needs.

A plan to shower $1 Billion on Christchurch & tougher vaping laws? ‘Exactly what NZ needs.’ Righto, if you say so.

[Logen Ninefingers]

First came the Gold Card, next came the Teal Card, we will know we are making real progress when the Mauve Card is unveiled.

[justakiwi]

I think that is what TOP is about.
Challenging the status quo and their progressive policies / ideas is exactly what NZ needs.

Exactly the point I have been trying to make. Our major parties are stuck in a rut. None of them even try to think outside the square. Challenging the status quo is precisely what is needed. Otherwise, what we have been putting up with for the last 40+ years, will be the best we can ever hope for.

As for the vaping - I have no idea which government was in power when vaping first appeared on our doorstep. It doesn't even matter. What matters is, vaping was intended to be a tool for those people trying to quit smoking. It was never intended to be an alternative to smoking, for non-smokers. It absolutely is addictive, but our young people are taking it up at the rate of knots because it is too easily accessible and affordable. My daughter is a theatre nurse. A smart, intelligent, incredible young woman. But she took up vaping some time ago, and is clearly now addicted. She tells me "at least it is better than smoking" but I call BS on that. If one is already a smoker, maybe vaping is the better option. But for someone who never smoked before, vaping is just as harmful, if not more so. If a qualified nurse can be "manipulated" by advertising and societal influences, to take up vaping, what chance do our kids have? As far as I am concerned, NZ should follow Aussie's lead. Vapes should be available on prescription only, supplied by pharmacies only, for people trying to quit smoking. Retail vape shops should be shut down/banned.

[Daytr]

A plan to shower $1 Billion on Christchurch & tougher vaping laws? ‘Exactly what NZ needs.’ Righto, if you say so.

How much is bring showered on Auckland by the main parties? $1Bln to our 2nd biggest city that is still recovering from the quake is quite justified.

And yes much tougher vaping laws.
It's a worse scourge on our youth than smoking.

[justakiwi]

It is really important to read policies in their entirety, to get an accurate picture of proposed changes. Some of you may have missed this detail with regards to the land tax:

Remove GST on rates and use ‘land value’ only for the rating base

So home owners might be paying the new land tax, but they would be paying significantly lower rates.

[Daytr]

It is really important to read policies in their entirety, to get an accurate picture of proposed changes. Some of you may have missed this detail with regards to the land tax:

Remove GST on rates and use ‘land value’ only for the rating base

So home owners might be paying the new land tax, but they would be paying significantly lower rates.

I calculate that on a million dollar home with land value of $400k, rates of $5k a home owner will be paying net an extra $2,348 p.a.

I'm not concerned about this as TOP even if they got into Parliament won't get policies like this over the line.

However what they would do is influence generally, with forward looking transformational policy.

By supporting TOP it will keep them going and hopefully gain more support & funding over time to have a real chance of entering Parliament.

[Logen Ninefingers]

How much is bring showered on Auckland by the main parties? $1Bln to our 2nd biggest city that is still recovering from the quake is quite justified.

And yes much tougher vaping laws.
It's a worse scourge on our youth than smoking.

So you are saying TOP is just doing in Christchurch what us already being done in Auckland….

And ‘tougher laws’…hmmm, where have I heard that before?

Tell me again how TOP offers something totally different from the major parties. 😂

[Daytr]

So you are saying TOP is just doing in Christchurch what us already being done in Auckland….

And ‘tougher laws’…hmmm, where have I heard that before?

Tell me again how TOP offers something totally different from the major parties. 😂

What are you smoking?

[Logen Ninefingers]

TOP may end up supplanting Labour as the dominant party of the Left.

Narrator: 'After Labours devastating defeat in the 2023 election, the party splintered: bitter factional infighting and recriminations saw mass resignations and shocking media revelations. Young 'progressives' and disenchanted former Labour supporters gravitated towards TOP and its promise of a 'fair' tax system and 'fair' society. Charismatic leader Raf Manji was able to build a devoted personal following. After TOP's surprise win in the 2029, campaigning on a slogan of 'We'll do it!' and with their promise of 'transformational' change, their was an initial burst of optimism, but the TOP government eventually collapsed due to its inability to deliver any meaningful results. Manji left NZ politics abruptly, and built a new career within Greenpeace.'

[BlackPeter]

In bold, did you hear about the part where wanted to start a Maori banking scheme with Ngai Tahu being the lead administrators? This is what makes me angry, clueless politicians that have only local experience, with no examples of how they failed abroad.

Working in PTA is purely a volunteer effort and no one is getting paid (unlike all those 6 figure income salaries we see with CCC). So I can tell you thing or 2 what really causes poverty in NZ when dealing with so many low income families. I doubt this Mr Manji has ever had the day of mixing among the poor ; what level of charity has he done? It seems to be he looks like a guy that would have his hands in the money bag by aligning with the elite Maori, oh we've seen this thing before under Labour with it's Maori caucus (awarding contracts to family members being a conflict of interest). I don't trust this guy much in the same way as how Donald Trump speaks.

Again, watch the interview again, he specifically says he wants to help the Maori poor while trying to align them with the Ngai Tahu standards. But the fact is every Iwi operates differently and if you ask me about the Ngai Tahu, they no longer serve as a charity but instead, as a mega corporation conglomerate. Such an entity in Canada under charity trust rules would have CGT applied at the 21st year in the trust's existence.

Let me ask you this question. What progress has NZ's WINZ / Dole system proved among the needy and low income poor? I would say, very little and by that metric if it proved anything, then why would giving $5,000 prove to be a game changer?

I would rather all the politicians stop talking about hand outs because it's a waste of time. All I want for this election is a tax cut because in my view, i'm sick of paying taxes to things that have become wasteful spending by the gov't. I want to keep more or my hard earned money in my pocket and hope that if the gov't sees less tax revenue to work with, then they may have to think real hard on where to spend it.

Oh and the issue of Top being neither left or right is a faux. Any action they do will have an effect that can be deemed left or right. Such as giving $ and taxing more $ in a Robin Hood fashion.

Look, you are again making up a strawman of your imagination and than fighting him. Do you realise how misearable and desperate you look by making up stories about the people you don't like and than smearing them with the lies you made up?


I doubt this Mr Manji has ever had the day of mixing among the poor ; what level of charity has he done? It seems to be he looks like a guy that would have his hands in the money bag by aligning with the elite Maori, oh we've seen this thing before under Labour with it's Maori caucus (awarding contracts to family members being a conflict of interest). I don't trust this guy much in the same way as how Donald Trump speaks.

No facts, no evidence, but a whole paragraph of smears.

You are basically a caricature of Donald Trump. Is this really the best the hard right can do? Just wondering, whether you are really a Leftie in disguise, because people like you clearly damage the cause of decent conservatives.

Amazing what you read into a one liner mentioning the idea of a Maori bank. That's enough for you to spread pamphlets of smears and lies. Well, I am not Raf Manjis spokesman, but if already the word "Maori bank" brings you up the palmtree, than I suggest you talk with Raf (just go to his facebook page) and ask him, what he meant. I don't see any harm in the words Maori Bank and Ngai Tahu ... and I could well imagine some concepts which could work. However - as far as I am aware is a Maori Bank not even a TOP policy, it was just an idea of a possible solution to an interview question. Your response is absolutely inappropriate and ridiculous. Do first some research before you start throwing mud.

And yes, you still clearly do not seem to understand that the proposed $5000 are not a handout. I explained that already several times. Are you that thick or are you just trolling?

Are you really unable to comprehend even simple concepts? It is not a proposed benefit. It is (as described by TOP) a proposed reward or "Thank You" for young people who did complete the proposed Civil Service program. Call it "completion benefit" for doing something which was good for our society, whether it was caring for old people, planting trees or cleaning up our environment.

Look, if you want to continue a productive discussion, than lets have that. At this stage it feels however you are just repeating the same nonsense again and again without being able (or willing) to process new information.

This is unproductive, it is trolling, and frankly - you are damaging the election chances of the right parties. Look - while I am sure that some of the trolls might rejoice with you for wasting other peoples time, they would vote right anyway (i.e. no gain for your side). However - a centre right government needs the centre, and at this stage are you and your troll colleagues doing their best to drive decent liberals in droves to the other side. Bad strategy so close to the elections if I may say so ... :) ;

[Logen Ninefingers]

Look, you are again making up a strawman of your imagination and than fighting him. Do you realise how misearable and desperate you look by making up stories about the people you don't like and than smearing them with the lies you made up?



No facts, no evidence, but a whole paragraph of smears.

You are basically a caricature of Donald Trump. Is this really the best the hard right can do? Just wondering, whether you are really a Leftie in disguise, because people like you clearly damage the cause of decent conservatives.

Amazing what you read into a one liner mentioning the idea of a Maori bank. That's enough for you to spread pamphlets of smears and lies. Well, I am not Raf Manjis spokesman, but if already the word "Maori bank" brings you up the palmtree, than I suggest you talk with Raf (just go to his facebook page) and ask him, what he meant. I don't see any harm in the words Maori Bank and Ngai Tahu ... and I could well imagine some concepts which could work. However - as far as I am aware is a Maori Bank not even a TOP policy, it was just an idea of a possible solution to an interview question. Your response is absolutely inappropriate and ridiculous. Do first some research before you start throwing mud.

And yes, you still clearly do not seem to understand that the proposed $5000 are not a handout. I explained that already several times. Are you that thick or are you just trolling?

Are you really unable to comprehend even simple concepts? It is not a proposed benefit. It is (as described by TOP) a proposed reward or "Thank You" for young people who did complete the proposed Civil Service program. Call it "completion benefit" for doing something which was good for our society, whether it was caring for old people, planting trees or cleaning up our environment.

Look, if you want to continue a productive discussion, than lets have that. At this stage it feels however you are just repeating the same nonsense again and again without being able (or willing) to process new information.

This is unproductive, it is trolling, and frankly - you are damaging the election chances of the right parties. Look - while I am sure that some of the trolls might rejoice with you for wasting other peoples time, they would vote right anyway (i.e. no gain for your side). However - a centre right government needs the centre, and at this stage are you and your troll colleagues doing their best to drive decent liberals in droves to the other side. Bad strategy so close to the elections if I may say so ... :) ;

He's trying to have a discussion with you, and look at the demeaning and inflammatory language and characterisations you use in response:

'Do you realise how misearable and desperate you look'
'You are basically a caricature of Donald Trump'
'Is this really the best the hard right can do?'
'Are you that thick or are you just trolling?'
'This is unproductive, it is trolling'
'some of the trolls might rejoice with you for wasting other peoples time'
'you and your troll colleagues'

You have your opinion that giving $15,000 to 18 year olds is a 'thankyou' for some civic service, others call it a hand out. A genuine thank you would be a certificate advising that the person has completed a period of civic service. It would be something a person could add to their CV. This $5,000 payout is a taxpayer funded windfall. You haven't 'debunked' anything, and you have no right to call somebody else 'thick' just because they don't agree to go along with your opinion.

There are so such things as 'liberals' in New Zealand politics. There is no Liberal Party, there is nobody on Right or Left who gets routinely referred to as 'liberals'. I've heard it said that somebody can be 'liberal on social policy'. That's as far as it goes in New Zealand political discourse. It is difficult to have a rational debate with you when you insist on making terms up on the spot & are unable to provide any reasoning or context.

Examing TOP's policies and candidates seems to have you on the ropes, and you respond by calling people 'hard right' or 'extreme right wing'. Your idea that an examination of TOP's policies would have 'decent liberals (flocking) in droves to the other side' is beyond laughable. There are no 'liberals' for starters, and you seem to be occupying a reality that no-one else inhabits at this point.

[BlackPeter]

That seems like more theft. TOP are fringe left as far as I am concerned and will not get my vote.

Sadly Logan is not even able to follow quite simple instructions. He would have needed to enter the land value of the average property instead of entering the capital value (btw, land value is less, unless you live on a section without improvements).

I we take his proposed salary and an average urban land value of say $350000 (that's the price for the section without a house on it), than you would pay $2 more in tax per week if we apply the TOP tax proposal.

If your section however is rural (not urban), you would save $2520 pa.

I suggest he does the calculation again and you do at least a minimum of processing and research before you parrot the misinformation some right wing trolls like Logan are spreading.

So dumb, but tells us a lot about the hard right. Making up stories, and spreading the lies.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sadly Logan is not even able to follow quite simple instructions. He would have needed to enter the land value of the average property instead of entering the capital value (btw, land value is less, unless you live on a section without improvements).

I we take his proposed salary and an average urban land value of say $350000 (that's the price for the section without a house on it), than you would pay $2 more in tax per week if we apply the TOP tax proposal.

If your section however is rural (not urban), you would save $2520 pa.

I suggest he does the calculation again and you do at least a minimum of processing and research before you parrot the misinformation some right wing trolls like Logan are spreading.

So dumb, but tells us a lot about the hard right. Making up stories, and spreading the lies.

I have followed instructions & entered an address! The TOP calculator is the one that gives the land value based on that address. Good luck trying to input '$350,000' as the land value. You obviously think land is as cheap as chips in New Zealand; it isn't. I would ask that other Sharetrader posters try the calculator for themselves & see if they can a figure anywhere near what BP is stating. My bet is that they won't.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sadly Logan is not even able to follow quite simple instructions. He would have needed to enter the land value of the average property instead of entering the capital value (btw, land value is less, unless you live on a section without improvements).

I we take his proposed salary and an average urban land value of say $350000 (that's the price for the section without a house on it), than you would pay $2 more in tax per week if we apply the TOP tax proposal.

If your section however is rural (not urban), you would save $2520 pa.

I suggest he does the calculation again and you do at least a minimum of processing and research before you parrot the misinformation some right wing trolls like Logan are spreading.

So dumb, but tells us a lot about the hard right. Making up stories, and spreading the lies.

I suggest he does the calculation again and you do at least a minimum of processing and research before you parrot the misinformation some right wing trolls like Logan are spreading.

So dumb, but tells us a lot about the hard right. Making up stories, and spreading the lies.

----

You're really becoming quite bitter and twisted. There were zero 'lies' in the calculation I related. It was done on an example salary of $65,000 and an example address which gave a land value of $710,000. You have to input an address, the TOP calculator does the rest!

The fact that you dish out 'negative reputation' stingers to others when it is actually you who are telling blatant porkies and questioning - without evidence - the integrity of others is a stain on your own character and reputation.

I believe you must have a connection to the TOP Party to go this hard on anyone who dares to question your narratives. People study the policies & watch the videos, and if they conclude TOP is anything less than utterly fantastic you seek to eviscerate them in this forum. It's not on.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The exact text from the 'TOP Calculator' is as below:

QV rates the value of your land at $710,000.
Therefore you would pay $5,325 each year in land tax for this property.

[fungus pudding]

The exact text from the 'TOP Calculator' is as below:

QV rates the value of your land at $710,000.
Therefore you would pay $5,325 each year in land tax for this property.

How many sheep do you run?

[Logen Ninefingers]

How many sheep do you run?

I'm not Jacinda Ardern.

[BlackPeter]

I have followed instructions & entered an address! The TOP calculator is the one that gives the land value based on that address. Good luck trying to input '$350,000' as the land value. You obviously think land is as cheap as chips in New Zealand; it isn't. I would ask that other Sharetrader posters try the calculator for themselves & see if they can a figure anywhere near what BP is stating. My bet is that they won't.

Never assume everybody is the same as you. Luckily their are some smarter cookies around.

I entered $350000 as a number, which worked quite well.

I entered as well our address and the calculator told me that we won't need to pay any landtax, given that it is a rural address.

Finally I entered an urban address from one of the adjacent townships, and the calculator correctly entered the land value ($330k) instead of the Capital value (which would be for that property - small two bed room house with garage - $575k).

Not sure, how you could get that wrong. I note however that you need to clear the calculator if you try with several sections, otherwise it adds up the landvalue of all the sections you entered.

Did you do that?

[Daytr]

The exact text from the 'TOP Calculator' is as below:

QV rates the value of your land at $710,000.
Therefore you would pay $5,325 each year in land tax for this property.

$710k land value is hardly average in NZ.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Here's another one from the TOP calculator, the land at this example address has a 3 bedroom house on it -

QV rates the value of your land at $530,000.
Therefore you would pay $3,975 each year in land tax for this property.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Never assume everybody is the same as you. Luckily their are some smarter cookies around.

I entered $350000 as a number, which worked quite well.

I entered as well our address and the calculator told me that we won't need to pay any landtax, given that it is a rural address.

Finally I entered an urban address from one of the adjacent townships, and the calculator correctly entered the land value ($330k) instead of the Capital value (which would be for that property - small two bed room house with garage - $575k).

Not sure, how you could get that wrong. I note however that you need to clear the calculator if you try with several sections, otherwise it adds up the landvalue of all the sections you entered.

Did you do that?

"I'm not sure how you could get that wrong".

What do you even mean?

I - or anyone - inputs the address.....the TOP Calculator does the rest!

[BlackPeter]

I suggest he does the calculation again and you do at least a minimum of processing and research before you parrot the misinformation some right wing trolls like Logan are spreading.

So dumb, but tells us a lot about the hard right. Making up stories, and spreading the lies.

----

You're really becoming quite bitter and twisted. There were zero 'lies' in the calculation I related. It was done on an example salary of $65,000 and an example address which gave a land value of $710,000. You have to input an address, the TOP calculator does the rest!

The fact that you dish out 'negative reputation' stingers to others when it is actually you who are telling blatant porkies and questioning - without evidence - the integrity of others is a stain on your own character and reputation.

I believe you must have a connection to the TOP Party to go this hard on anyone who dares to question your narratives. People study the policies & watch the videos, and if they conclude TOP is anything less than utterly fantastic you seek to eviscerate them in this forum. It's not on.

"To believe means you know that you don't want to know the truth" (Nietzsche).

You are parroting misinformation and you repeated several times already debunked statements. That's what trolls are doing.

No need to get excited :) ;

[Azz]

"To believe means you know that you don't want to know the truth" (Nietzsche).

You are parroting misinformation and you repeated several times already debunked statements. That's what trolls are doing.

No need to get excited :) ;

You believe anyone who disagrees with you - is a troll.

[Logen Ninefingers]

"To believe means you know that you don't want to know the truth" (Nietzsche).

You are parroting misinformation and you repeated several times already debunked statements. That's what trolls are doing.

No need to get excited :) ;

Where is the 'misinformation'? What were the 'dunked statements'?

Simply stating things are true, as you are doing, doesn't make them the truth. It is a common propaganda tactic however.

Fact, not 'misinformation' -

QV rates the value of your land at $530,000.
Therefore you would pay $3,975 each year in land tax for this property.

Fact, not 'debunked misinformation' -

'You have your opinion that giving 18 year olds a $5000 payout is a 'thankyou' for some civic service. A genuine thank you would be a certificate advising that the person has completed a period of civic service. It would be something a person could add to their CV. This $5000 payout is a taxpayer funded windfall. You haven't 'debunked' anything.'

[Logen Ninefingers]

The Teal Visa : Facilitating An Influx of 'Climate Refugees'

---------------------------

https://www.top.org.nz/teal_visa_investing_in_a_climate_resettlement_prog ramme


Teal Visa: Investing in a Climate Resettlement programme
Posted by Raf Manji on August 20, 2023

The Opportunities Party (TOP) is today announcing its new Teal Visa proposal - the cornerstone of TOP’s immigration policy.

'The effects of climate change are already causing major economic damage and social disruption - in New Zealand, the Pacific and more widely around the world. Millions of people are being displaced from homes and communities.

TOP takes a future focused approach to these challenges, and that’s where the Teal Visa comes in.

The Teal Visa will create a new climate change resettlement programme and generate funding for scholarships and research into global climate change effects and adaptation.

“We continue to see strong interest from high net worth individuals looking to move to New Zealand alongside their families, but the current Government approach to this category of people means we’re missing out on massive opportunities,” TOP Leader Raf Manji says.

Visa programmes currently require these individuals to invest in a range of financial products, such as bonds or stocks, and more recently into government-approved companies.

“This isn’t adding any value to us as a nation, and it’s often seen as a barrier to long-term investment too.

“TOP’s Teal Visa will apply to investors looking to relocate to New Zealand and has the potential to generate up to $300 million annually for a new resettlement programme for climate refugees, with an initial focus on the Pacific.

“The Teal Visa will help New Zealand to be a better neighbour to the Pacific, while also leveraging high net worth individuals and attracting new, quality investment into our country.

“Using high net worth individuals to create a multi-million dollar fund that can be used to support climate refugees, educational pathways for young people and climate research is smart, progressive policy,” Raf Manji says.'

[Azz]

"Teal Visa: Investing in a Climate Resettlement programme"

Oh I get it now, the TOP party is part of the Climate Change religion! It all makes sense now. I originally thought it was just a party for morons.

[BlackPeter]

The Teal Visa : Facilitating An Influx of 'Climate Refugees'

---------------------------

https://www.top.org.nz/teal_visa_investing_in_a_climate_resettlement_prog ramme


Teal Visa: Investing in a Climate Resettlement programme
Posted by Raf Manji on August 20, 2023

The Opportunities Party (TOP) is today announcing its new Teal Visa proposal - the cornerstone of TOP’s immigration policy.

'The effects of climate change are already causing major economic damage and social disruption - in New Zealand, the Pacific and more widely around the world. Millions of people are being displaced from homes and communities.

TOP takes a future focused approach to these challenges, and that’s where the Teal Visa comes in.

The Teal Visa will create a new climate change resettlement programme and generate funding for scholarships and research into global climate change effects and adaptation.

“We continue to see strong interest from high net worth individuals looking to move to New Zealand alongside their families, but the current Government approach to this category of people means we’re missing out on massive opportunities,” TOP Leader Raf Manji says.

Visa programmes currently require these individuals to invest in a range of financial products, such as bonds or stocks, and more recently into government-approved companies.

“This isn’t adding any value to us as a nation, and it’s often seen as a barrier to long-term investment too.

“TOP’s Teal Visa will apply to investors looking to relocate to New Zealand and has the potential to generate up to $300 million annually for a new resettlement programme for climate refugees, with an initial focus on the Pacific.

“The Teal Visa will help New Zealand to be a better neighbour to the Pacific, while also leveraging high net worth individuals and attracting new, quality investment into our country.

“Using high net worth individuals to create a multi-million dollar fund that can be used to support climate refugees, educational pathways for young people and climate research is smart, progressive policy,” Raf Manji says.'

Interesting -
National targets high worth individuals, they even want to sell them houses when they have no residence. No complaints from you.
National sold the NZ Citizenship to the Trump confidente Peter Thiel. Given that he is a right wing scumbag, this was probably ok with you, isn't it?

ACT is proposing to make immigration of talented people and their families much easier - and you don't complain.

However - TOP proposes to target wealthy immigrants and you are jumping up and down.

Is this the sweet smell of hypocracy coming from your posts?

You are a funny man - digging a deeper hole with every post you write :) ;

[Panda-NZ-]

Gosh he's smart... 4d chess player.

'Be strategic': National urged to do deal to get TOP into Parliament, avoid Winston Peters | Newshub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHg4fEdYRxc

Though there is the risk (for National) that TOP will back the current govt.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Gosh he's smart... 4d chess player.

'Be strategic': National urged to do deal to get TOP into Parliament, avoid Winston Peters | Newshub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHg4fEdYRxc

Though there is the risk (for National) that TOP will back the current govt.

Yeah, 'don't do electorate deals with TEALs' is the old adage.

[Patrick11]

Raf is just after a meal ticket

[Logen Ninefingers]

Interesting -
National targets high worth individuals, they even want to sell them houses when they have no residence. No complaints from you.
National sold the NZ Citizenship to the Trump confidente Peter Thiel. Given that he is a right wing scumbag, this was probably ok with you, isn't it?

ACT is proposing to make immigration of talented people and their families much easier - and you don't complain.

However - TOP proposes to target wealthy immigrants and you are jumping up and down.

Is this the sweet smell of hypocracy coming from your posts?

You are a funny man - digging a deeper hole with every post you write :) ;

I see where you are placing your emphasis with your comments in bold, but you seem to have missed the entire point of the policy.

It is about using funds from high net worth individuals to fund a resettlement programme whereby 'climate refugees' are resettled in New Zealand.

More than a few people will say that we have more than enough problems here at home, and that additional revenue raised should be spent on improving the lives of New Zealanders, via increased spending on health and education, via tax relief, or via paying down some of our burgeoning debt to reduce onerous interest costs.

TOP should focus on the problems and issues effecting New Zealanders, rather than embark on grandiose schemes that will not improve the lives of New Zealand citizens one iota.

(Your comments about (a) purported 'right wing scumbag' are irrelevant to this debate, but they do - again - say a lot about you).

----



Teal Visa: Investing in a Climate Resettlement programme
Posted by Raf Manji on August 20, 2023

The Opportunities Party (TOP) is today announcing its new Teal Visa proposal - the cornerstone of TOP’s immigration policy.

'The effects of climate change are already causing major economic damage and social disruption - in New Zealand, the Pacific and more widely around the world. Millions of people are being displaced from homes and communities.

TOP takes a future focused approach to these challenges, and that’s where the Teal Visa comes in.

The Teal Visa will create a new climate change resettlement programme and generate funding for scholarships and research into global climate change effects and adaptation.

“We continue to see strong interest from high net worth individuals looking to move to New Zealand alongside their families, but the current Government approach to this category of people means we’re missing out on massive opportunities,” TOP Leader Raf Manji says.

Visa programmes currently require these individuals to invest in a range of financial products, such as bonds or stocks, and more recently into government-approved companies.

“This isn’t adding any value to us as a nation, and it’s often seen as a barrier to long-term investment too.

“TOP’s Teal Visa will apply to investors looking to relocate to New Zealand and has the potential to generate up to $300 million annually for a new resettlement programme for climate refugees, with an initial focus on the Pacific.

“The Teal Visa will help New Zealand to be a better neighbour to the Pacific, while also leveraging high net worth individuals and attracting new, quality investment into our country.

“Using high net worth individuals to create a multi-million dollar fund that can be used to support climate refugees, educational pathways for young people and climate research is smart, progressive policy,” Raf Manji says.'

[Logen Ninefingers]

Raf is just after a meal ticket

He has been described here as a 'lawyer' when I said he was a professional politician.

He earned a Graduate Diploma in Politics and a Masters in International Law and Politics from the University of Canterbury.[5]

-----

Here is the Raf Manji​ back story. His Irish mother had been a novice nun and had strong social justice instincts. His father came from India and worked as a banker in London in the 1960s.

Put those things together – the social justice softie, the facility with money – and 50 years later, you arrive at Manji

More on the 'Manji backstory' here, an article from 2017 when he was running in Ilam as an Independent -

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/91264508/raf-manji-the-gambler-turned-politician

[justakiwi]

Have you even watched the various interviews others have linked to here? Have you been to the website and thoroughly read the information there? I don't believe you have, because if you had, you would realise your statement below is embarrassing to say the least. Raf has had significant more life experience than any other party leader. He has worked in a wide range of employment areas - ranging from high finance, all the way down to not for profit social sectors. His world view is significantly different from any leader of any party, I have ever listened to before. Nobody is claiming that TOP is 100% different to what we are used to, but they are showing that they can think outside the square, come up with some innovative ideas, and provide a feasible alternative to the status quo. If you watch the interviews you will see that TOP is a party that is willing to support policy that is good for the country - regardless of which party's policy it is. They are not interested in simply supporting one side and refusing to support the other. In that respect, that is exactly what we need.

I find it really interesting that some here, post one line comments like this, with no evidence to back their claim. These kinds of comments contribute nothing of value. They are pretty much designed to stir the pot, and nothing more.


Raf is just after a meal ticket

[Logen Ninefingers]

Have you even watched the various interviews others have linked to here? Have you been to the website and thoroughly read the information there? I don't believe you have, because if you had, you would realise your statement below is embarrassing to say the least. Raf has had significant more life experience than any other party leader. He has worked in a wide range of employment areas - ranging from high finance, all the way down to not for profit social sectors. His world view is significantly different from any leader of any party, I have ever listened to before. Nobody is claiming that TOP is 100% different to what we are used to, but they are showing that they can think outside the square, come up with some innovative ideas, and provide a feasible alternative to the status quo. If you watch the interviews you will see that TOP is a party that is willing to support policy that is good for the country - regardless of which party's policy it is. They are not interested in simply supporting one side and refusing to support the other. In that respect, that is exactly what we need.

I find it really interesting that some here, post one line comments like this, with no evidence to back their claim. These kinds of comments contribute nothing of value. They are pretty much designed to stir the pot, and nothing more.

The guy is a professional politician, he trained accordingly. He was on the Christchurch City council and has stood in the electorate of Ilam in the 2017.
Fair enough to say he is after a 'meal ticket'. He is looking for his next paid role within government in New Zealand. If he doesn't get into Parliament this time around, I'd expect him to quit TOP and chase another role in local government. Everybody has to eat and pay the bills!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Have you even watched the various interviews others have linked to here? Have you been to the website and thoroughly read the information there? I don't believe you have, because if you had, you would realise your statement below is embarrassing to say the least. Raf has had significant more life experience than any other party leader. He has worked in a wide range of employment areas - ranging from high finance, all the way down to not for profit social sectors. His world view is significantly different from any leader of any party, I have ever listened to before. Nobody is claiming that TOP is 100% different to what we are used to, but they are showing that they can think outside the square, come up with some innovative ideas, and provide a feasible alternative to the status quo. If you watch the interviews you will see that TOP is a party that is willing to support policy that is good for the country - regardless of which party's policy it is. They are not interested in simply supporting one side and refusing to support the other. In that respect, that is exactly what we need.

I find it really interesting that some here, post one line comments like this, with no evidence to back their claim. These kinds of comments contribute nothing of value. They are pretty much designed to stir the pot, and nothing more.

Where is the evidence that TOP represents a 'feasible alternative' to the status quo? For starters, unless TOP wins the election outright they will not be able to implement the bulk of the policies. The policies themselves aren't of a startingly revolutionary nature; TOP didn't invent land taxes, special cards for certain age groups, universal basic income or anything else they are proposing. These are existing ideas which are being recycled.

[Getty]

Here is the Raf Manji​ back story. His Irish mother had been a novice nun and had strong social justice instincts. His father came from India and worked as a banker in London in the 1960s.


So Raf is a Hindoolan?

[SBQ]

Raf is just after a meal ticket

I tried to say this in my post many pages ago but BlackPeter blasted me.

[Daytr]

I tried to say this in my post many pages ago but BlackPeter blasted me.

As he should as it's simplistic and inaccurate.
If anyone's integrity should be questioned it's Luxon's. It's obvious he is in it for the power, prestige & legacy of being a PM.
Anyone that is prepared to abandon their own beliefs or convictions, shouldn't be trusted.

[SBQ]

As he should as it's simplistic and inaccurate.
If anyone's integrity should be questioned it's Luxon's. It's obvious he is in it for the power, prestige & legacy of being a PM.
Anyone that is prepared to abandon their own beliefs or convictions, shouldn't be trusted.

Tell that to the voters of NZ choosing National in this election? If Manji has any credibility, why does his TOP party rank so low? Has TOP ever won past the 5% threshold?

[Logen Ninefingers]

As he should as it's simplistic and inaccurate.
If anyone's integrity should be questioned it's Luxon's. It's obvious he is in it for the power, prestige & legacy of being a PM.
Anyone that is prepared to abandon their own beliefs or convictions, shouldn't be trusted.

And what are the beliefs and convictions of Raj Manji, and why should we trust him?

[Daytr]

Tell that to the voters of NZ choosing National in this election? If Manji has any credibility, why does his TOP party rank so low? Has TOP ever won past the 5% threshold?

They are choosing a change of Government not Luxon. Will he be the lowest polling preferred PM to ever be elected?

[Logen Ninefingers]

They are choosing a change of Government not Luxon. Will he be the lowest polling preferred PM to ever be elected?

Will Chipkins? He is currently lower than Luxon.

[Daytr]

And what are the beliefs and convictions of Raj Manji, and why should we trust him?
The question should be what evidence is there that he shouldn't be trusted. I gave reasons why Luxon shouldn't be. You need to do the same or is your glass always half empty.

[Daytr]

Will Chipkins? He is currently lower than Luxon.

Chip won't be elected. Luxon will as the lowest polling preferred PM of all time.
Why? Because they don't trust or like him

[Getty]

I'm surprised to see some posters suggest Top as a viable coalition partner for National.

I haven't updated myself on Top policy since Gareth
Morgan's days, but they were more left than Labour.

Am I missing something?

A U turn?

So for this post, the self appointed site and thread goon BlackPeter responded with post#233 and a negative rep.

My comment from Morgans days was based on how TOP was generally perceived at the time.

Fast forward to todays NZ Herald, and what do I read?

Labours Ilam Candidate Sarah Pallett says re the TOP candidate "i do think he will split the LEFT vote, and will take votes away from me"

Conclusion: no more likely to be in coalition with National than Labour.

Now while we are on politics, lets take a snap poll.

Hands up everyone who has had a negative reputation from Getty?
Hands up everyone who has had a negative reputation from BlackPeter?

Heck! What a landslide whitewash down trou!

None vs untold!

Getty believes in the interchange of expression and ideas and giving people a fair go.

Thankyou to the providers of the site for enabling this.

BlackPeter believes in suppression and being a control freak, trying to eliminate opposition.

[Logen Ninefingers]

So for this post, the self appointed site and thread goon BlackPeter responded with post#233 and a negative rep.

My comment from Morgans days was based on how TOP was generally perceived at the time.

Fast forward to todays NZ Herald, and what do I read?

Labours Ilam Candidate Sarah Pallett says re the TOP candidate "i do think he will split the LEFT vote, and will take votes away from me"

Conclusion: no more likely to be in coalition with National than Labour.

Now while we are on politics, lets take a snap poll.

Hands up everyone who has had a negative reputation from Getty?
Hands up everyone who has had a negative reputation from BlackPeter?

Heck! What a landslide whitewash down trou!

None vs untold!

Getty believes in the interchange of expression and ideas and giving people a fair go.

BlackPeter believes in suppression and being a control freak, trying to eliminate opposition.

The irony is that the bully in question dishes out huge amounts of abuse to others, today calling people liars and trolls.

[Baa_Baa]

Hey JAK, I think your Poll is well and truely vindicated, only half way through the week 39 votes, 400 replies and almost 9000 views. Well done, good call putting this out there, I'm looking forward to seeing how the results on Saturday compare to the past two weeks.

[justakiwi]

Thanks Baa_Baa.

I’ll be glad when it is all over to be honest, but it will be interesting to see what next week’s final poll reveals.


Hey JAK, I think your Poll is well and truely vindicated, only half way through the week 39 votes, 400 replies and almost 9000 views. Well done, good call putting this out there, I'm looking forward to seeing how the results on Saturday compare to the past two weeks.

[Daytr]

So for this post, the self appointed site and thread goon BlackPeter responded with post#233 and a negative rep.

My comment from Morgans days was based on how TOP was generally perceived at the time.

Fast forward to todays NZ Herald, and what do I read?

Labours Ilam Candidate Sarah Pallett says re the TOP candidate "i do think he will split the LEFT vote, and will take votes away from me"

Conclusion: no more likely to be in coalition with National than Labour.

Now while we are on politics, lets take a snap poll.

Hands up everyone who has had a negative reputation from Getty?
Hands up everyone who has had a negative reputation from BlackPeter?

Heck! What a landslide whitewash down trou!

None vs untold!

Getty believes in the interchange of expression and ideas and giving people a fair go.

Thankyou to the providers of the site for enabling this.

BlackPeter believes in suppression and being a control freak, trying to eliminate opposition.

Perhaps you need to look at yourself on why you get negative reputation marks against you.

I find some of your posts abhorrent.
Quite often racist and more.
And it's nothing to do with having right wing views.

[Baa_Baa]

Thanks Baa_Baa.

I’ll be glad when it is all over to be honest, but it will be interesting to see what next week’s final poll reveals.

No worries, just wanting to acknowledge that your initiative to run the poll has generated a lot of interest and discussion. I think many people get to the stage before an election where they will be glad it's over.

[justakiwi]

This may help some of you better understand where TOP is coming from. Obviously it only applies if and when they manage to win a seat(s), but it makes their position very clear and I, for one, support it.

Recently, there has been a lot of discussion around various coalitions that may form a Government after October 14th, and we want to be clear about our position in that respect.The Opportunities Party is a progressive, independent party focused on working collaboratively across Parliament, not just with one side.
Our focus is on providing every Kiwi the opportunity for a good life - ensuring we invest in our future - not pandering to the politics of left or right.
We will sit on the cross benches in Parliament, and support progressive policies that take New Zealand forward, and vote against policy that doesn’t.
After the election should our support be required to provide a stable Government coalition, we will enter into appropriate agreements to deliver that. Regardless of this, we would maintain our independence in legislative matters.
A vote for The Opportunities Party means our values will always be represented in any decision making.

[SBQ]

This may help some of you better understand where TOP is coming from. Obviously it only applies if and when they manage to win a seat(s), but it makes their position very clear and I, for one, support it.

Recently, there has been a lot of discussion around various coalitions that may form a Government after October 14th, and we want to be clear about our position in that respect.The Opportunities Party is a progressive, independent party focused on working collaboratively across Parliament, not just with one side.
Our focus is on providing every Kiwi the opportunity for a good life - ensuring we invest in our future - not pandering to the politics of left or right.
We will sit on the cross benches in Parliament, and support progressive policies that take New Zealand forward, and vote against policy that doesn’t.
After the election should our support be required to provide a stable Government coalition, we will enter into appropriate agreements to deliver that. Regardless of this, we would maintain our independence in legislative matters.
A vote for The Opportunities Party means our values will always be represented in any decision making.

lol what a whole lot of waffle there. Are you aware that investing in the future is like every goal for every political party in NZ? This kind of talk reminds me of the NZ Democracy party that basically says the same thing, but offers no substance, no plan, no action, or any ideas how this can be accomplished.

For eg. when Jacinda Ardern brought in the 1st year uni tuition would be free (as a method to address tuition costs in NZ ; making it affordable), the advisors said that it would be more beneficial to have it done at the last year of uni as it creates the incentive for those to push harder and finish their qualification. They wanted the election bribe instead by keeping it free for 1st year. How is this a plan? Go over in Canada and there you can truly see a proper plan in addressing tuition costs through their RESP scheme. Upon birth of the child, both parents (or anyone) can contribute funds in the RESP (and the gov't does some matching contributions too) which go invested in the stock market. Over the course of 18 years the funds get compounded TAX FREE, the dividends too are TAX FREE. By the time the child reaches university age, the portfolio would have grown in excess to pay for the tuition and cost of going to uni. That my friends is a PLAN of investing in the future. Not a stupid bribe by saying we'll pay the 1st year Uni free or we will give you $5,000 if you do some social pandering that ticks the box for eligibility.

[Logen Ninefingers]

This may help some of you better understand where TOP is coming from. Obviously it only applies if and when they manage to win a seat(s), but it makes their position very clear and I, for one, support it.

Recently, there has been a lot of discussion around various coalitions that may form a Government after October 14th, and we want to be clear about our position in that respect.The Opportunities Party is a progressive, independent party focused on working collaboratively across Parliament, not just with one side.
Our focus is on providing every Kiwi the opportunity for a good life - ensuring we invest in our future - not pandering to the politics of left or right.
We will sit on the cross benches in Parliament, and support progressive policies that take New Zealand forward, and vote against policy that doesn’t.
After the election should our support be required to provide a stable Government coalition, we will enter into appropriate agreements to deliver that. Regardless of this, we would maintain our independence in legislative matters.
A vote for The Opportunities Party means our values will always be represented in any decision making.

Our focus is on providing every Kiwi the opportunity for a good life - ensuring we invest in our future - not pandering to the politics of left or right.

-----

So you just instantly believe that? Your gullibility is off the charts. You're not even responding to a policy, just a piece of marketing hyperbole.

I can bang something like that out. Will you vote for FLOP (Future Learning Optimism Party)?


Our vision for Aotearoa New Zealand is of the most caring nation possible, a country where we all feel connected to each other and where everyone feels valued and respected. Aotearoa New Zealand must be a place where everbody can reach their fullest potential, with a fair tax system and fair access to a warm dry house. FLOP have the future focussed policies to turn our vision into the reality that each of us deserves.

[justakiwi]

You know what? There are scroll bars on your computer screen. If you don't like something you see here, just scroll on by buddy. You guys are major hypocrites. You expect those of us you refer to as "lefties" to respect you and your political views, yet you don't afford us the same respect. I don't expect you to vote for TOP. I am simply sharing information for anyone who may be interested. Given that this is a TOP thread, if you are not interested in the party, and you can't be respectful of those who are, just piss off. There are plenty of "right wing" threads for you to post in. Just stop hijacking every damned thread.

Oh, and btw Logenf***fingers - I didn't highlight that paragraph. It was highlighted in the original. Which you should have known given it was quoted material.



lol what a whole lot of waffle there. Are you aware that investing in the future is like every goal for every political party in NZ? This kind of talk reminds me of the NZ Democracy party that basically says the same thing, but offers no substance, no plan, no action, or any ideas how this can be accomplished.

For eg. when Jacinda Ardern brought in the 1st year uni tuition would be free (as a method to address tuition costs in NZ ; making it affordable), the advisors said that it would be more beneficial to have it done at the last year of uni as it creates the incentive for those to push harder and finish their qualification. They wanted the election bribe instead by keeping it free for 1st year. How is this a plan? Go over in Canada and there you can truly see a proper plan in addressing tuition costs through their RESP scheme. Upon birth of the child, both parents (or anyone) can contribute funds in the RESP (and the gov't does some matching contributions too) which go invested in the stock market. Over the course of 18 years the funds get compounded TAX FREE, the dividends too are TAX FREE. By the time the child reaches university age, the portfolio would have grown in excess to pay for the tuition and cost of going to uni. That my friends is a PLAN of investing in the future. Not a stupid bribe by saying we'll pay the 1st year Uni free or we will give you $5,000 if you do some social pandering that ticks the box for eligibility.



Our focus is on providing every Kiwi the opportunity for a good life - ensuring we invest in our future - not pandering to the politics of left or right.

-----

So you just instantly believe that? Your gullibility is off the charts. You're not even responding to a policy, just a piece of marketing hyperbole.

I can bang something like that out. Will you vote for FLOP (Future Learning Optimism Party)?


Our vision for Aotearoa New Zealand is of the most caring nation possible, a country where we all feel connected to each other and where everyone feels valued and respected. Aotearoa New Zealand must be a place where everbody can reach their fullest potential, with a fair tax system and fair access to a warm dry house. FLOP have the future focussed policies to turn our vision into the reality that each of us deserves.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You know what? There are scroll bars on your computer screen. If you don't like something you see here, just scroll on by buddy. You guys are major hypocrites. You expect those of us you refer to as "lefties" to respect you and your political views, yet you don't afford us the same respect. I don't expect you to vote for TOP. I am simply sharing information for anyone who may be interested. Given that this is a TOP thread, if you are not interested in the party, and you can't be respectful of those who are, just piss off. There are plenty of "right wing" threads for you to post in. Just stop hijacking every damned thread.

Be Kind!

It's a discussion. We are just trying to help you. Rather than go weak at the knees over TOP's inane waffle, why not develop some critical thinking skills? It's never too late!

[Logen Ninefingers]

You know what? There are scroll bars on your computer screen. If you don't like something you see here, just scroll on by buddy. You guys are major hypocrites. You expect those of us you refer to as "lefties" to respect you and your political views, yet you don't afford us the same respect. I don't expect you to vote for TOP. I am simply sharing information for anyone who may be interested. Given that this is a TOP thread, if you are not interested in the party, and you can't be respectful of those who are, just piss off. There are plenty of "right wing" threads for you to post in. Just stop hijacking every damned thread.

Oh, and btw Logenf***fingers - I didn't highlight that paragraph. It was highlighted in the original. Which you should have known given it was quoted material.

Oh, and btw Logenf***fingers - I didn't highlight that paragraph. It was highlighted in the original. Which you should have known given it was quoted material.
--

Yeah, no worries. TOP would have high-lighted that as a particularly juicy bit of bait. "Hey Raf, we reeled in another one!"

[Daytr]

Our focus is on providing every Kiwi the opportunity for a good life - ensuring we invest in our future - not pandering to the politics of left or right.

-----

So you just instantly believe that? Your gullibility is off the charts. You're not even responding to a policy, just a piece of marketing hyperbole.

I can bang something like that out. Will you vote for FLOP (Future Learning Optimism Party)?


Our vision for Aotearoa New Zealand is of the most caring nation possible, a country where we all feel connected to each other and where everyone feels valued and respected. Aotearoa New Zealand must be a place where everbody can reach their fullest potential, with a fair tax system and fair access to a warm dry house. FLOP have the future focussed policies to turn our vision into the reality that each of us deserves.

Yes I do believe it as their policies reflect that.
A party that is fairly centrist that actually wants to do something about climate change and care for the environment.

The new health of fresh water report just released is unsurprisingly a shocker. Clean / Green yeah right!

Two of our biggest industries amoung others are at risk by not taking environmental responsibility. Dairy & Tourism.
Environmental responsibility is not an issue of the left, it will secure the viability of these two signficant industries & export earners as well as give Kiwis their rivers & lakes back for their own enjoyment.

[Azz]

"After the election should our support be required..."

Hahahahahahaha! Thanks for the good laugh.

[Blue Skies]

Yes I do believe it as their policies reflect that.
A party that is fairly centrist that actually wants to do something about climate change and care for the environment.

The new health of fresh water report just released is unsurprisingly a shocker. Clean / Green yeah right!

Two of our biggest industries amoung others are at risk by not taking environmental responsibility. Dairy & Tourism.
Environmental responsibility is not an issue of the left, it will secure the viability of these two signficant industries & export earners as well as give Kiwis their rivers & lakes back for their own enjoyment.




Dismayingly Climate Change & Care for the Environment have been heavily politicized when a responsible bi-partisan approach is desperately needed.

We can't avoid the fact agriculture contributes around 50% of our emissions & yet National are doing so much damage with slogans like 'Labour & the Greens are the enemy of farmers' & 'Labour hates farmers' when

1) we can't keep kicking the can down the road with these critical emissions targets in 2030 & 2050 coming up,
& 2) unlike other industries, agriculture has been excluded, given concessions to allow time for adjustment which although difficult just have to be made.

Why?
Well apart from the obvious benefits, briefly - if we don't reach our Emissions Targets, its going to cost the govt, us taxpayers a cost estimated at between $3.3 Billion to $23.7 Billion in penalties & it could go higher!
Whereas if we do, revenue from the ETS could provide between $2.4 Billion to $6.2 Billion to the NZ economy.

In the words of Cockney actor Michael Caine, it seems - " and not a lot of people know that".


Here's a BERL summary well worth a quick read, explaining the issues and how Emissions will cost us and not just at the petrol pump.



https://berl.co.nz/economic-insights/emissions-will-cost-new-zealanders

[BlackPeter]

...

(Your comments about (a) purported 'right wing scumbag' are irrelevant to this debate, but they do - again - say a lot about you).

...


Not quite sure, what you mean with this comment?

Peter Thiel is clearly "right-wing" - or do you see him as a Leftie?

Peter Thiel was as well one of Trumps henchmen, and while the courts established by now better than at that stage that Trump is a crook - it was at that stage clearly visible for anybody with even a miniscule amount of judgement. Peter Thiel still supported him at that stage big way - so, he clearly behaves (or at least behaved at the time of receiving NZ citizenship) like a scumbag.

Thats what I said - a right-wing scum bag. Nothing more, nothing less. What's wrong about this?

What exactly would this say about me, other than that I seem to be better in processing for everybody obvious facts than you seem to be?

And yes, while the discussion about Peter Thiel is not directly relevant to TOP, it was just an example for the immigration policies of your beloved right wing parties.

Personally I do prefer NZ to allow the immigration of decent, hard working and contributing people with the skills we need, as per the TOP proposal. If they include in this climate refugees, what harm does this do?

I don't like NZ to sell NZ Citicenships to scumbags, as per Nationals govenment policy.

I think this is relevant - people really should think about whether they want to support a National government without a moral compass - and neither ACT nor NZF (cough ....) would be able to provide that latter bit.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Dismayingly Climate Change & Care for the Environment have been heavily politicized when a responsible bi-partisan approach is desperately needed.

We can't avoid the fact agriculture contributes around 50% of our emissions & yet National are doing so much damage with slogans like 'Labour & the Greens are the enemy of farmers' & 'Labour hates farmers' when

1) we can't keep kicking the can down the road with these critical emissions targets in 2030 & 2050 coming up,
& 2) unlike other industries, agriculture has been excluded, given concessions to allow time for adjustment which although difficult just have to be made.

Why?
Well apart from the obvious benefits, briefly - if we don't reach our Emissions Targets, its going to cost the govt, us taxpayers a cost estimated at between $3.3 Billion to $23.7 Billion in penalties & it could go higher!
Whereas if we do, revenue from the ETS could provide between $2.4 Billion to $6.2 Billion to the NZ economy.

In the words of Cockney actor Michael Caine, it seems - " and not a lot of people know that".


Here's a BERL summary well worth a quick read, explaining the issues and how Emissions will cost us and not just at the petrol pump.



https://berl.co.nz/economic-insights/emissions-will-cost-new-zealanders

‘We’ must do something when we contribute a infinitesimal 0.17% of global emissions, while China is approving new coal power projects at the equivalent of two plants every week? Turn it up. China approved 106 new coal fired power plants in 2022, the situation there is out of control.

What we need is for our farmers to get true credit for the amount of carbon capture they are doing, including via their pasture & in the actual products themselves - which are largely exported offshore.

The Green lobby on New Zealand is made up of vile and hypocritical anti-farming activists who constantly attack a vital New Zealand industry while saying nothing about the absolute tragedy unfolding in China. The NZ public are consequently in the dark about this important issue.
This is the Left for you, they hate certain groups for political reasons and need to see them destroyed to advance the aims of ‘democratic socialism’.

————

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/china-coal-plants-climate-goals-carbon

China continues coal spree despite climate goals

World’s biggest carbon emitter approving equivalent of two new coal plants a week, analysis shows

Helen Davidson
Tue 29 Aug 2023 11.04 BST

‘China is approving new coal power projects at the equivalent of two plants every week, a rate energy watchdogs say is unsustainable if the country hopes to achieve its energy targets.
The government has pledged to peak emissions by 2030 and reach net zero by 2060, and in 2021 the president, Xi Jinping, promised to stop building coal powered plants abroad.
But after regional power crunches in 2022, China started a domestic spree of approving new projects and restarting suspended ones. In 2022 the government approved a record-breaking 106 gigawatts (GW) of new coal-fired power capacity. One gigawatt is the equivalent of a large coal power plant.
This run of approvals is continuing, potentially on track to break last year’s record, according to analysis by the Global Energy Monitor (GEM) and the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air, published on Tuesday.
It said in the first half of 2023, authorities granted approvals for 52GW of new coal power, began construction on 37GW of new coal power, announced 41GW-worth of new projects, and revived 8GW of previously shelved projects. It said about half of the plants permitted in 2022 had started construction by summer.
The analysts said: “Unless permitting is stopped immediately, China won’t be able to reduce coal-fired power capacity during the 15th five-year plan (2026–30) without subsequent cancellations of already permitted projects or massive early retirement of existing plants.”’

[Azz]

What exactly would this say about me, other than that I seem to be better in processing for everybody obvious facts than you seem to be?

I think you might be a narcissist. And not a fake internet one, but an actual one.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Not quite sure, what you mean with this comment?

Peter Thiel is clearly "right-wing" - or do you see him as a Leftie?

Peter Thiel was as well one of Trumps henchmen, and while the courts established by now better than at that stage that Trump is a crook - it was at that stage clearly visible for anybody with even a miniscule amount of judgement. Peter Thiel still worked for him at that stage and I think he still supports him - so, he clearly is a scumbag.

Thats what I said - a right-wing scum bag. Nothing more, nothing less. What's wrong about this?

What exactly would this say about me, other than that I seem to be better in processing for everybody obvious facts than you seem to be?

And yes, while the discussion about Peter Thiel is not directly relevant to TOP, it was just an example for the immigration policies of your beloved right wing parties.

Personally I do prefer NZ to allow the immigration of decent, hard working and contributing people with the skills we need, as per the TOP proposal. If they include in this climate refugees, what harm does this do?

I don't like NZ to sell NZ Citicenships to scumbags, as per Nationals govenment policy.

I think this is relevant - people really should think about whether they want to support a National govenment without a moral compass - and neither ACT nor NZF (cough ....) would be able to provide that latter bit.

This is all part of your ongoing arrogance and superiority complex. You determine who is a ‘scumbag’ and who has a ‘moral compass’ and act astonished and indignant if anyone has the temerity to question you.

IMO, Hipkins and Robertson are a couple of scumbags who are looking to overburden New Zealand with debt as part of their drive to advance the aims of ‘democratic socialism’. To the Left, the ends justify the means, hence they have readily abandoned their moral compass and given themselves over to the telling of lies and the playing of dirty tricks. Labour are truly wallowing in the gutter in this campaign, it has been pitiful to behold.

[BlackPeter]

This is all part of your ongoing arrogance and superiority complex. You determine who is a ‘scumbag’ and who has a ‘moral compass’ and act astonished and indignant if anyone has the temerity to question you.

IMO, Hipkins and Robertson are a couple of scumbags who are looking to overburden New Zealand with debt as part of their drive to advance the aims of ‘democratic socialism’. To the Left, the ends justify the means, hence they have readily abandoned their moral compass and given themselves over to the telling of lies and the playing of dirty tricks. Labour are truly wallowing in the gutter in this campaign, it has been pitiful to behold.

Well, it appears that you have a very limited capability to comprehend the complexity of the real world :p ; Things are not just "left" or "right", there is as well a centre, there are many shades in between - and there are as well plenty of other dimensions (like e.g. honest - corrupt or like caring for the environment or destroying it or like behaving human or behaving like raging animals). Nothing of that is correlated to political right or left.

I never condoned Hipkins and Robertson wasting our tax dollars (and yes, they did). Its probably debatable, whether they did that by purpose (in this case your characterization would be correct), or whether they did that by lack of competence. I think it might be more the latter.

Having said that - there are light years between some politicians who increased our public debt for ideological reasons (and lets face it, NZ's debt is still very low in international comparison) - and one Superrich puppetmaster supporting a candidate and later president who not just bragged about being a sexual predator, but who was as well constantly trying to destroy the democratic and legal framework of the country he promises(d) to protect.

I think you need to learn at some stage that there is a wide and complex world outside of your political rabbit hole. Calling everybody not agreeing with your limited view of the world either "Left-wing" or "socialist" is wrong and sounds plain stupid.

[Azz]

I think you might be a narcissist. And not a fake internet one, but an actual one.

BlackPeter the narcissist leaves a negative Reputation comment calling me a troll. BlackPeter, you're a f'wit.

[Azz]

These aggressive negative Reputation comments NEED TO STOP.

[Azz]

These aggressive negative Reputation comments NEED TO STOP.

It's a deliberate ploy to try and intimidate someone by sending them an individual attack message into their inbox.

[Azz]

It's a deliberate ploy to try and intimidate someone by sending them an individual attack message into their inbox.

BlackPeter - I DO NOT WANT YOU TO CONTACT ME VIA THE REPUTATION SYSTEM.

[BlackPeter]

Just had a look at the latest poll summary in business desk (probably paywalled):

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/politics/election-2023-little-change-in-party-support-but-act-slips

I note that TOP's rating is rising (up to 2% now) while ACT keeps declining.

Clearly - the raging hard right trolls (probably not just on this thread) do make their dent. Not many want to vote for a party supported by (and probably dependent on) such creatures.

Keep continuing your good work and show your real face ... it is appreciated ;) ;

[Azz]

Just had a look at the latest poll summary in business desk (probably paywalled):

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/politics/election-2023-little-change-in-party-support-but-act-slips

I note that TOP's rating is rising (up to 2% now) while ACT keeps declining.

Clearly - the raging hard right trolls (probably not just on this thread) do make their dent. Not many want to vote for a party supported by (and probably dependent on) such creatures.

Keep continuing your good work and show your real face ... it is appreciated ;) ;

BlackPeter - I DO NOT WANT YOU TO CONTACT ME VIA THE REPUTATION SYSTEM.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Just had a look at the latest poll summary in business desk (probably paywalled):

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/politics/election-2023-little-change-in-party-support-but-act-slips

I note that TOP's rating is rising (up to 2% now) while ACT keeps declining.

Clearly - the raging hard right trolls (probably not just on this thread) do make their dent. Not many want to vote for a party supported by (and probably dependent on) such creatures.

Keep continuing your good work and show your real face ... it is appreciated ;) ;

Given that voting has now been underway for 4 days and TOP are on 2%, BP has 2 hopes for his beloved motley crew of chancers and grifters reaching Parliament….slim and none.

Meanwhile, decent centre-right folk are being stripped of their humanity and described as ‘creatures’, a new low for this thread.

[justakiwi]

If you don't like the negative rep people give you, just turn the reputation feature off under your profile settings. That's what most people whose reputation is "in the red" do.


BlackPeter - I DO NOT WANT YOU TO CONTACT ME VIA THE REPUTATION SYSTEM.

[Azz]

If you don't like the negative rep people give you, just turn the reputation feature off under your profile settings. That's what most people whose reputation is "in the red" do.

"In the red" because your pal BlackPeter is placing endless negative reputation. It is harassment. How would you like it?

[Azz]

These aggressive negative Reputation comments NEED TO STOP.

They are attempts to try and intimidate someone by sending them individual attack messages straight into their inbox.

The ability to place negative Reputation needs to be turned off for everyone. It is a being used as a system of harassment.

[BlackPeter]

Given that voting has now been underway for 4 days and TOP are on 2%, BP has 2 hopes for his beloved motley crew of chancers and grifters reaching Parliament….slim and none.

Meanwhile, decent centre-right folk are being stripped of their humanity and described as ‘creatures’, a new low for this thread.

Absolutely - there is decent folks (and yes, some are centre right). Nothing wrong with that. I consider myself to be centre-right as well :) ;

There are as well trolls. Some of these creatures are hard-right. So, yes - they might share some political views with other decent people, but this does not make them decent.

You need to learn to properly read before you attack other posters about things only in your imagination rather than about things other people have said.

Bad habit.

[justakiwi]

I think you will find that others have given you negative rep from time to time, including me. I have also been on the receiving end of negative rep at times, but I don't take it to heart. Sometimes it is a good reminder to think before I speak, or to double check the tone of my posts. I have looked at Black Peter's rep to you - I wouldn't call it intimidating. I wouldn't even call it an "attack." You should see some of mine ;)





"In the red" because your pal BlackPeter is placing endless negative reputation. It is harassment. How would you like it?


These aggressive negative Reputation comments NEED TO STOP.

They are attempts to try and intimidate someone by sending them individual attack messages straight into their inbox.

The ability to place negative Reputation needs to be turned off for everyone. It is a being used as a system of harassment.

[BlackPeter]

... deleted .... looks like Youtube playing up on me :)

[Azz]

Absolutely - there is decent folks (and yes, some are centre right). Nothing wrong with that. I consider myself to be centre-right as well :) ;

There are as well trolls. Some of these creatures are hard-right. So, yes - they might share some political views with other decent people, but this does not make them decent.

You need to learn to properly read before you attack other posters about things only in your imagination rather than about things other people have said.

Bad habit.

You do nothing but attack posters. You are the worst attack poster there is. You call anyone who disagrees with you a "troll". You go off on people nearly every post.

And that isn't enough for you - you place multiple attack comments into individual inboxes via negative Reputation.

You are harassing and attacking and quite frankly destroying this place.

[Azz]

Recent content from BlackPeter:

"the raging hard right trolls"

"Not many want to vote for a party supported by (and probably dependent on) such creatures."

"You are parroting misinformation and you repeated several times already debunked statements. That's what trolls are doing."

"research before you parrot the misinformation some right wing trolls"

"You are basically a caricature of Donald Trump."

"This is unproductive, it is trolling"

"I guess he is doing what every troll does"

"or do you just talk about the chatter you hear in your right wing rabbit hole?"

"you are trolling."

"You are spreading misleading information."

"I thought you might be better than a troll."

"great to see the extreme right wing trolls so active"

[Daytr]

You do nothing but attack posters. You are the worst attack poster there is. You call anyone who disagrees with you a "troll". You go off on people nearly every post.

And that isn't enough for you - you place multiple attack comments into individual inboxes via negative Reputation.

You are harassing and attacking and quite frankly destroying this place.

Azz, do you have a mirror at home? Take a look.
You are constantly either on the attack of the defense.
Its very childish behaviour.
JustaKiwi gave you some good advice.
You need to chill out man as its doing you nor the quality of these threads any favours.
It can't be everybody else that's wrong...

[Azz]

Azz, do you have a mirror at home? Take a look.
You are constantly either on the attack of the defense.
Its very childish behaviour.
JustaKiwi gave you some good advice.
You need to chill out man as its doing you or tne quality of these threads no favours.
It can't be everybody else that's wrong...

"Everybody?" BackPeter is the one placing the negative Reputation. And you cowardly placed the first one today. Is that what you want? A negative Reputation war? Where scum attack people into their inboxes, and in retaliation those people being harassed start placing their own negative Reputation?

[Daytr]

Recent content from BlackPeter:

"the raging hard right trolls"

"Not many want to vote for a party supported by (and probably dependent on) such creatures."

"You are parroting misinformation and you repeated several times already debunked statements. That's what trolls are doing."

"research before you parrot the misinformation some right wing trolls"

"You are basically a caricature of Donald Trump."

"This is unproductive, it is trolling"

"I guess he is doing what every troll does"

"or do you just talk about the chatter you hear in your right wing rabbit hole?"

"you are trolling."

"You are spreading misleading information."

"I thought you might be better than a troll."

"great to see the extreme right wing trolls so active"

Well done BlackPeter nailed it.
Anyway, I think it was BaaBaa that asked to stay on point on these threads otherwise Faar% Cough.
You are splashing this self-indulgent crap over all the threads, very irrational & paranoid behaviour.
Please speak to someone and get help.

[Azz]

Well done BlackPeter nailed it.

He's certainly nailed - and it's all in writing - what sort of person he is, and how massive his inability to argue the point is, and how he falls back on, every single time, INSULT.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Azz, do you have a mirror at home? Take a look.
You are constantly either on the attack of the defense.
Its very childish behaviour.
JustaKiwi gave you some good advice.
You need to chill out man as its doing you nor the quality of these threads any favours.
It can't be everybody else that's wrong...

Amazing that the same leftist posters who get unbelievably worked up and overwrought are the same ones now telling others to ‘chill out’.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Well done BlackPeter nailed it.
Anyway, I think it was BaaBaa that asked to stay on point on these threads otherwise Faar% Cough.
You are splashing this self-indulgent crap over all the threads, very irrational & paranoid behaviour.
Please speak to someone and get help.

Why don’t you steer the thread onto the right course by making some cogent points, rather than tearing into Azz? I’ve tried to discuss the TOP policies and been attacked relentlessly for it.

For the record, the latest poll this week looks like being the final nail in coffin for TOP’s chance at this election.

[Daytr]

Why don’t you steer the thread onto the right course by making some cogent points, rather than tearing into Azz? I’ve tried to discuss the TOP policies and been attacked relentlessly for it.

For the record, the latest poll this week looks like being the final nail in coffin for TOP’s chance at this election.

Actually, you haven't in a lot of instances, and you are hardly the person to lecture anyone on attacking the poster.
As for Azz, if he stops trolling me and acting like a petulant child, I will stop sending him to the naughty chair.
It makes me laugh that you defend him. Very flawed judgement.
I'm not worked up at all, well as much as a mosquito buzzing in my ear works me up.

[Azz]

Actually, you haven't in a lot of instances, and you are hardly the person to lecture anyone on attacking the poster.
As for Azz, if he stops trolling me and acting like a petulant, I will stop sending him to the naughty chair.
It makes me laugh that you defend him. Very flawed judgement.
I'm not worked up at all, well as much as a mosquito buzzing in my ear works me up.

This from the caught-out liar. The fake international day trader.

[Logen Ninefingers]

‘What TOP proposes

We have a vision for a world-class Christchurch and Raf Manji wants to help deliver it.

Our investment proposals include:

A new South Island Cancer Center and Laboratory ($580m)
A new Mental Health and Trauma Center ($20m)
Shift to a Zero Emission Urban Bus Fleet by 2030 ($130m)
Roading and Footpath Repair Fund ($70m)
Hospital Car Parking ($30m)
150 new Community Constables ($45m)
10 new Police Kiosks ($5m)
A new South Island Police Training College ($40m)
Christchurch Cathedral and Arts Centre Repair Fund ($40m)
A new Primary/Secondary School ($40m)
The Christchurch Pitch is all about making sure our city gets the attention - and investment - it needs and deserves.‘

[Daytr]

‘What TOP proposes

We have a vision for a world-class Christchurch and Raf Manji wants to help deliver it.

Our investment proposals include:

A new South Island Cancer Center and Laboratory ($580m)
A new Mental Health and Trauma Center ($20m)
Shift to a Zero Emission Urban Bus Fleet by 2030 ($130m)
Roading and Footpath Repair Fund ($70m)
Hospital Car Parking ($30m)
150 new Community Constables ($45m)
10 new Police Kiosks ($5m)
A new South Island Police Training College ($40m)
Christchurch Cathedral and Arts Centre Repair Fund ($40m)
A new Primary/Secondary School ($40m)
The Christchurch Pitch is all about making sure our city gets the attention - and investment - it needs and deserves.‘

An excellent list of policies for representing the electorate.
If I was in Ilam I would be giving him two votes & if I was in other electorates Christchurch or Canterbury I would at least give him my party vote.

[Logen Ninefingers]

An excellent list of policies for representing the electorate.
If I was in Ilam I would be giving him two votes & if I was in other electorates Christchurch or Canterbury I would at least give him my party vote.

And if you lived in Invercargill and he proposed showering $1 Billion on Invercargill you’d be tripping over yourself to give to ticks to TOP there as well. ‘Excellent’ = ‘a massive spend-up’ in daytr’s world. Fiscal prudence be damned, just stick it on the big credit card for the next generation to deal with.

[Panda-NZ-]

And if you lived in Invercargill and he proposed showering $1 Billion on Invercargill you’d be tripping over yourself to give to ticks to TOP there as well. ‘Excellent’ = ‘a massive spend-up’ in daytr’s world. Fiscal prudence be damned, just stick it on the big credit card for the next generation to deal with.

Or you can ask the NZ elite to pay their fair share, rather than having austerity for the poor & middle class.

Chch gets a new cancer centre instead of more helipads and exotic cars.

[Azz]

If I was in Ilam I would be giving him two votes & if I was in other electorates Christchurch or Canterbury I would at least give him my party vote.

What genius strategy is this? Why would it matter where you live in NZ to give TOP your party vote?

[davflaws]

"Everybody?" BackPeter is the one placing the negative Reputation. And you cowardly placed the first one today. Is that what you want? A negative Reputation war? Where scum attack people into their inboxes, and in retaliation those people being harassed start placing their own negative Reputation?

I don't do reputations either positive or negative, and I don't are too much about the ones I get.
But if I did give them out, you would get plenty of negative ones. Your posta consistently attack other posters and/or whine and complain about the way other people react to your nonsense. These threads would be a more pleasant and informative ploace if you would think a bit more deeply and take a number of deep breaths before you post.

[Azz]

I don't do reputations either positive or negative, and I don't are too much about the ones I get.
But if I did give them out, you would get plenty of negative ones. Your posta consistently attack other posters and/or whine and complain about the way other people react to your nonsense. These threads would be a more pleasant and informative ploace if you would think a bit more deeply and take a number of deep breaths before you post.

This place would be much more pleasant without the hypocrisy of demanding qualifications from some people but not others!

[Daytr]

And if you lived in Invercargill and he proposed showering $1 Billion on Invercargill you’d be tripping over yourself to give to ticks to TOP there as well. ‘Excellent’ = ‘a massive spend-up’ in daytr’s world. Fiscal prudence be damned, just stick it on the big credit card for the next generation to deal with.

You are missing proportionality.
CHC is NZs second largest city, Invercargill, is well Invercargill and yes a proportional spend might be appropriate, although CHC is a major not only regional center but South Island one so more would be spent there.

NZF allocated $400M on Northland alone under the PGF. Not all of it went ahead & not all of it wisely I might add, but there has been a huge amount of benefit come from the projects and still is.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You are missing proportionality.
CHC is NZs second largest city, Invercargill, is well Invercargill and yes a proportional spend might be appropriate, although CHC is a major not only regional center but South Island one so more would be spent there.

NZF allocated $400M on Northland alone under the PGF. Not all of it went ahead & not all of it wisely I might add, but there has been a huge amount of benefit come from the projects and still is.

A proportional spend might be appropriate? Far out, ‘borrowing & spending’ is the main policy you are backing this election it seems.

[Panda-NZ-]

A proportional spend might be appropriate? Far out, ‘borrowing & spending’ is the main policy you are backing this election it seems.

It's hardly National's tax plan.. only 1/4 of the cost for buildings etc which will last 20 years or more.

[Blue Skies]

And if you lived in Invercargill and he proposed showering $1 Billion on Invercargill you’d be tripping over yourself to give to ticks to TOP there as well. ‘Excellent’ = ‘a massive spend-up’ in daytr’s world. Fiscal prudence be damned, just stick it on the big credit card for the next generation to deal with.



We've been hammered with the narrative the NZ economy is stuffed & we have this massive debt for future generations to pay off.
But how true is this?

Im not so interested in what the debt figure alone is, but what the debt to GDP ratio is, because smaller economies should carry smaller debt while larger economies, can carry larger debt.
No one compares different countries debt figure alone, they compare the Ratio taking into account different size economies.

It's the job of govt's to use surpluses & deficits to smooth out shocks to the economy, e.g. the GFC, Christchurch earthquake, Global Pandemic, & 2 devastating Cyclones.

National ran a deficit for 6 years, 2009 - 2014, took them 6 years to just scrape into a surplus after the GFC & at the highest point, National's Debt to GDP ratio was about the same as we have now.

Ask yourself if the economy is as bad as National paint it, why is their recipe for fixing it so mild, & un-ambitious (all just about further increasing the cost cutting already underway) & why are they only projecting a return to surplus in the same year as Labour, just 4 years from now 2027.
No one would describe 4 years time as "the next generation"
And why - when NZ's Debt to GDP ratio is low compared to most OECD countries.

[Logen Ninefingers]

We've been hammered with the narrative the NZ economy is stuffed & we have this massive debt for future generations to pay off.
But how true is this?

Im not so interested in what the debt figure alone is, but what the debt to GDP ratio is, because smaller economies should carry smaller debt while larger economies, can carry larger debt.
No one compares different countries debt figure alone, they compare the Ratio taking into account different size economies.

It's the job of govt's to use surpluses & deficits to smooth out shocks to the economy, e.g. the GFC, Christchurch earthquake, Global Pandemic, & 2 devastating Cyclones.

National ran a deficit for 6 years, 2009 - 2014, took them 6 years to just scrape into a surplus after the GFC & at the highest point, National's Debt to GDP ratio was about the same as we have now.

Ask yourself if the economy is as bad as National paint it, why is their recipe for fixing it so mild, & un-ambitious (all just about further increasing the cost cutting already underway) & why are they only projecting a return to surplus in the same year as Labour, just 4 years from now 2027.
No one would describe 4 years time as "the next generation"
And why - when NZ's Debt to GDP ratio is low compared to most OECD countries.

It’s the rate of borrowing I am referring to. You are an ostrich about this issue unfortunately.

[Panda-NZ-]

It’s the rate of borrowing I am referring to. You are an ostrich about this issue unfortunately.

Are you supportive of increasing taxes like CGT, land, inheritance or removing imputation credits in order to reduce our debt?

[Panda-NZ-]

Are you supportive of increasing taxes like CGT, land, inheritance or removing imputation credits in order to reduce our debt?

That's before we get to the churches and maori organisations.

[Daytr]

A proportional spend might be appropriate? Far out, ‘borrowing & spending’ is the main policy you are backing this election it seems.

I think you will find it's National’s figures that don't add up. I am yet to find anyone qualified outside the National Party that agrees on their foreign buyer figures.

TOP want to overhaul the tax system to make it fairer. Get rid of their land tax & replace it with a CGT then we are all good. I'll get a letter off to Raf.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Are you supportive of increasing taxes like CGT, land, inheritance or removing imputation credits in order to reduce our debt?

I’m a big fan of reducing out-of-control spending, Labour has increased government spending by 80% since taking office & has failed to deliver better outcomes. You want to rake in more tax, and under it Labour it will just be money down the drain & the rampant borrowing will continue. A lot of the money has been blown on management fat cats in the public service. Time to get the razor out and start cutting, cutting, cutting. We need doctors & nurses, not bureaucrats at Te Whata Ora who are on obscene salaries of anywhere between $450,000 and $750,000. The Maori Health Authority is goneburgers, a duplication of the health bureaucracy that hasn’t delivered 1 additional doctor or nurse. There is waste everywhere you look, the razors must come out. The Left are driven by envy to pursue a remorseless drive for more tax, tax, tax. It’s time to make a stand and stop the socialists here and now, this lunacy must cease!

[Panda-NZ-]

Simply keeping taxes as they are will be an improvement over National's plan.

[Azz]

I'm still intrigued about this...


If I was in Ilam I would be giving him two votes & if I was in other electorates Christchurch or Canterbury I would at least give him my party vote.

What genius strategy is this? Why would it matter where you live in NZ to give TOP your party vote?

[Daytr]

I'm still intrigued about this...



What genius strategy is this? Why would it matter where you live in NZ to give TOP your party vote?

Again, think about context of what I said and was replying to.
I know you rarely think before you post, so this could be a new experience for you.
Again & again & again, keep up.

[Azz]

Again, think about context of what I said and was replying to.
I know you rarely think before you post, so this could be a new experience for you.
Again & again & again, keep up.

The context is irrelevant. What has your location in NZ got to do with who you give your PARTY vote to?

[Logen Ninefingers]

The context is irrelevant. What has your location in NZ got to do with who you give your PARTY vote to?

He’s a dribbler, gets caught out time and again and then tries to bluff and bluster his way out of it.

[justakiwi]

He isn't saying he is not voting for TOP because he doesn't live in Canterbury. He is saying - if he were one of the people who do live in Ilam, he would give TOP both votes. If he was one of the people living in the rest of ChCh/Canterbury, he would give them his party vote. He is looking at it from the perspective of other voters, not himself.

If I lived in Ilam that is exactly what I would do. But as someone who lives in Canterbury, I will give them my party vote - there is no TOP candidate in my electorate unfortunately.



I'm still intrigued about this...



What genius strategy is this? Why would it matter where you live in NZ to give TOP your party vote?


He’s a dribbler, gets caught out time and again and then tries to bluff and bluster his way out of it.

[Azz]

He isn't saying he is not voting for TOP because he doesn't live in Canterbury. He is saying - if he were one of the people who do live in Ilam, he would give TOP both votes. If he was one of the people living in the rest of ChCh/Canterbury, he would give them his party vote. He is looking at it from the perspective of other voters, not himself.

If I lived in Ilam that is exactly what I would do. But as someone who lives in Canterbury, I will give them my party vote - there is no TOP candidate in my electorate unfortunately.

I think Daytr has really mucked-up here. Is this TOP party in actual fact a parochial party? Don't give your party vote to them if you don't live in Canterbury!

[Logen Ninefingers]

He isn't saying he is not voting for TOP because he doesn't live in Canterbury. He is saying - if he were one of the people who do live in Ilam, he would give TOP both votes. If he was one of the people living in the rest of ChCh/Canterbury, he would give them his party vote. He is looking at it from the perspective of other voters, not himself.

If I lived in Ilam that is exactly what I would do. But as someone who lives in Canterbury, I will give them my party vote - there is no TOP candidate in my electorate unfortunately.

Well Manji would appreciate it I’m sure, and so will National. Manji splitting the Leftist vote in Ilam will allow the National candidate to register a handsome victory. 😂

[Azz]

He is saying - if he were one of the people who do live in Ilam, he would give TOP both votes. If he was one of the people living in the rest of ChCh/Canterbury, he would give them his party vote.

That's the same as saying he's not voting for TOP with his party vote if he didn't live in Canterbury.

[Azz]

Is TOP only for people in Canterbury? This is big news.

[fungus pudding]

That's the same as saying he's not voting for TOP with his party vote if he didn't live in Canterbury.

That's what I thought he/she meant.

[justakiwi]

OMG. No it isn't. He may actually not be voting for TOP, but that was not the point of his post.


That's the same as saying he's not voting for TOP with his party vote if he didn't live in Canterbury.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Well Manji would appreciate it I’m sure, and so will National. Manji splitting the Leftist vote in Ilam will allow the National candidate to register a handsome victory. 😂

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2023/09/newshub-nation-battlegrounds-labour-mp-scolds-the-opportunities-party-leader-raf-manji-for-splitting-the-vote-in-ilam-christchurch.amp.html

‘Christchurch's Ilam electorate was a safe National seat until three years ago when Sarah Pallett flipped it for Labour during the red wave.

According to Pallett, if National wins Ilam, it won't be because of Campbell.

"I think it's going to be a matter of splitting votes to be honest," she said.

"We've got a lot of competition on the left-hand side of the vote."

This competition is from leader of The Opportunities Party (TOP), Raf Manji, a former Christchurch Councillor.’

[Logen Ninefingers]

Is TOP only for people in Canterbury? This is big news.

Left wing people living in Canterbury are eyeing the juicy $1 Billion payday that Raf has promised them.

[Azz]

Raf Manji, a former Christchurch Councillor.’

And to be a future Christchurch Councillor.

[Azz]

Left wing people living in Canterbury are eyeing the juicy $1 Billion payday that Raf has promised them.

I see, makes sense now.

[Azz]

That's what I thought he/she meant.

Apparently don't take Daytr literally...

[Daytr]

I see, makes sense now.

Ahhh you finally got it... after rant after rant.

If you had actually read what I was responding to I.e comments from Logen Ninefingers about the $1Bln for CHC in TOP's policy then you would have got the context.

Mind you Logen Ninefingers didn't get it either and it was in response to his own post.

Jeepers you ACT voters aren't the sharpest pencil in the box are ya!

[Daytr]

That's what I thought he/she meant.

Fungus you surprise me. You are normally more onto it. Afternoon nap? 😉

[Logen Ninefingers]

Ahhh you finally got it... after rant after rant.

If you had actually read what I was responding to I.e comments from Logen Ninefingers about the $1Bln for CHC in TOP's policy then you would have got the context.

Mind you Logen Ninefingers didn't get it either and it was in response to his own post.

Jeepers you ACT voters aren't the sharpest pencil in the box are ya!

I get that you’d be splitting the far left vote and giving the National candidate a saloon passage into Parliament. 😂

[Azz]

Ahhh you finally got it... after rant after rant.

If you had actually read what I was responding to I.e comments from Logen Ninefingers about the $1Bln for CHC in TOP's policy then you would have got the context.

Mind you Logen Ninefingers didn't get it either and it was in response to his own post.

Jeepers you ACT voters aren't the sharpest pencil in the box are ya!

And you try and take credit for something where there is no credit to be taken... What you wrote is there in black and white: people utilizing their party vote according to where they live; and either these people are very dim, and/or this TOP party is a regional party only.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Fungus you surprise me. You are normally more onto it. Afternoon nap? 😉

You’ve got tickets on yourself; you’ve never been ‘onto it’.

[Daytr]

You’ve got tickets on yourself; you’ve never been ‘onto it’.

A post in jest & it's not even directed at you, but you feel obligated to respond.
And yet you think I have tickets on myself.

I'm not the one here thinking I have the answer to everyone's posts even when not directed to you!
Oh the irony!

I've had enough sport for now & food gets cold if you play with it for too long...

[Daytr]

And you try and take credit for something where there is no credit to be taken... What you wrote is there in black and white: people utilizing their party vote according to where they live; and either these people are very dim, and/or this TOP party is a regional party only.

Give up whilst you are behind, a long way behind.

[Azz]

Give up whilst you are behind, a long way behind.

It's all here in writing, the crazy strategy you have for TOP.

[BlackPeter]

I’m a big fan of reducing out-of-control spending, Labour has increased government spending by 80% since taking office & has failed to deliver better outcomes. You want to rake in more tax, and under it Labour it will just be money down the drain & the rampant borrowing will continue. A lot of the money has been blown on management fat cats in the public service. Time to get the razor out and start cutting, cutting, cutting. We need doctors & nurses, not bureaucrats at Te Whata Ora who are on obscene salaries of anywhere between $450,000 and $750,000. The Maori Health Authority is goneburgers, a duplication of the health bureaucracy that hasn’t delivered 1 additional doctor or nurse. There is waste everywhere you look, the razors must come out. The Left are driven by envy to pursue a remorseless drive for more tax, tax, tax. It’s time to make a stand and stop the socialists here and now, this lunacy must cease!

Wrong thread to express your dismay about Labour, but to bring it back on subject:

If National would have any brains they would work with TOP instead of approving the conspiracy theorist Winston Peters and his bunch of populists living in La la land!

Not good for NZ's future, and not good for ACT either I am afraid. Remember - no coalition with Winston survived so far more than one term. Where is ACT going after the catastrophy of ACT, NZF and National tryiung to form a government? How is an auterity party like ACT fuding Winstons slash and bribe regional fund? Where do we have this money in the budget? Not important? Ah, right - if National, ACT and NZF burn money, than it doesn't matter, does it? However - a sensible investment in the future instead would be a problem?

Lets better hope National still grows some brains (here is hoping).

[BlackPeter]

He’s a dribbler, gets caught out time and again and then tries to bluff and bluster his way out of it.

Never thought you would be so open and honest about Azz, but yes, you are right!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Two more negative reputation attacks from vile troll BlackPeter, he is clearly someoe who uses this system as a way of targeting others he wishes to silence.
Nobody else behaves the way this person does, it seems nothing is beneath him.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Never thought you would be so open and honest about Azz, but yes, you are right!

So you are attacking in the thread as well now? Not content with your bullying 'negative reputation' attacks on Azz, you add your snide comments as well. You certainly enjoy wallowing in the gutter.

[Azz]

Wrong thread to express your dismay about Labour, but to bring it back on subject:

If National would have any brains they would work with TOP instead of approving the conspiracy theorist Winston Peters and his bunch of populists living in La la land!

Not good for NZ's future, and not good for ACT either I am afraid. Remember - no coalition with Winston survived so far more than one term. Where is ACT going after the catastrophy of ACT, NZF and National tryiung to form a government? How is an auterity party like ACT fuding Winstons slash and bribe regional fund? Where do we have this money in the budget? Not important? Ah, right - if National, ACT and NZF burn money, than it doesn't matter, does it? However - a sensible investment in the future instead would be a problem?

Lets better hope National still grows some brains (here is hoping).

No political strategist for National would ever entertain the idea of supporting TOP. It's an absolute fantasy to suggest they would. National are campaigning for "two ticks" in Ilam.

[Azz]

Two more negative reputation attacks from vile troll BlackPeter, he is clearly someoe who uses this system as a way of targeting others he wishes to silence.
Nobody else behaves the way this person does, it seems nothing is beneath him.

BlackPeter: psychopath.

[Azz]

I think it was Baa_Baa who mentioned it (apologies if it wasn't) but negative Reputation seems to be unlimited whereas positive Reputation has some form of limit when trying to give to the same user too quickly or however it works. I've never given negative Reputation to anyone and I never will; it needs to be removed from the site, it's only being used to attack people.

[blackcap]

I think it was Baa_Baa who mentioned it (apologies if it wasn't) but negative Reputation seems to be unlimited whereas positive Reputation has some form of limit when trying to give to the same user too quickly or however it works. I've never given negative Reputation to anyone and I never will; it needs to be removed from the site, it's only being used to attack people.

I concur with this. I will never give negative rep either. It is being weaponised by the extremists on here.

[Azz]

"look, I suggest you whine about your personal problems in a relevant thread. And hey- negative reputation has a poiint ... its to keep the trolls somewhat under control." -- More disgusting negative Reputation into my inbox from the psycho BlackPeter

[BlackPeter]

I concur with this. I will never give negative rep either. It is being weaponised by the extremists on here.

Interesting that you call Logan Ninefingers an extremist, but on reflection I agree. He does not use negative rep to mark deviations from the forum standards (as I tend to do), but he uses it only as a weapon of retribution and to deflect from his inappropriate behaviour.

Interesting as well that you are quite happy with Azz and Logan's name calling competition of other posters ... and you are even calling the others extremists.

On the other hand - good to see you guys exposing yourself prior to the elections, this way everybody can see which people will be empowered with a vote for ACT. Better play safe ...

[Logen Ninefingers]

Another negative reputation attack from BlackPeter, this time seemingly because someone else called me a 'dickhead'. BlackPeter is skulking out there somewhere, nursing its twisted hate and reading everyones posts like a demented HAL-9000 computer, as seen in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

[Logen Ninefingers]

It's going to be very, very enjoyable watching grifter Manji and his manufactured 'TOP' outfit of dope smokers and policy egg-heads flop on election night.
Manji's slogan should be 'In it for ME'.

[BlackPeter]

Not quite sure, what you mean with this comment?

Peter Thiel is clearly "right-wing" - or do you see him as a Leftie?

Peter Thiel was as well one of Trumps henchmen, and while the courts established by now better than at that stage that Trump is a crook - it was at that stage clearly visible for anybody with even a miniscule amount of judgement. Peter Thiel still supported him at that stage big way - so, he clearly behaves (or at least behaved at the time of receiving NZ citizenship) like a scumbag.

Thats what I said - a right-wing scum bag. Nothing more, nothing less. What's wrong about this?

What exactly would this say about me, other than that I seem to be better in processing for everybody obvious facts than you seem to be?

And yes, while the discussion about Peter Thiel is not directly relevant to TOP, it was just an example for the immigration policies of your beloved right wing parties.

Personally I do prefer NZ to allow the immigration of decent, hard working and contributing people with the skills we need, as per the TOP proposal. If they include in this climate refugees, what harm does this do?

I don't like NZ to sell NZ Citicenships to scumbags, as per Nationals govenment policy.

I think this is relevant - people really should think about whether they want to support a National government without a moral compass - and neither ACT nor NZF (cough ....) would be able to provide that latter bit.

OK - Logan the Ninefingers gave me just a negative rep for this post. He said:

"Calling people 'scumbags' because of their political views is disgraceful, you should be well and truly ashamed of yourself."

Dear Logan, I would really aprreciate if you would first try to comprehend other peoples posts before you go on your rampage. Feels like you are an angry man - and your reptile brain is now in control, is it?

I called Peter Thiel a scumbag for supporting a crook, not for his political views - and this is clearly visible in the post above.

Logan, as so often you are wrong and you have proven yourself as a hypocrite (when you gave Azz positive rep for calling me a psychopath". You are an embarrassment for any decent conservative person.

Egg all over your face ...

[blackcap]

Interesting that you call Logan Ninefingers an extremist, but on reflection I agree. He does not use negative rep to mark deviations from the forum standards (as I tend to do), but he uses it only as a weapon of retribution and to deflect from his inappropriate behaviour.

Interesting as well that you are quite happy with Azz and Logan's name calling competition of other posters ... and you are even calling the others extremists.

On the other hand - good to see you guys exposing yourself prior to the elections, this way everybody can see which people will be empowered with a vote for ACT. Better play safe ...

Wrong again. ACT not getting my vote at all. Seymour is a pompous little prick.