Geneva Finance - GFL

[humvee]

Whats up with Geneva Finance - GFL Today?- Could not see any announcements earlier - but 0 shares traded today from what I can see.......

[traineeinvestor]

GFL is pretty thinly traded at the best of times. I note the controlling shareholder increased their shareholding recently which will (I expect) reduce market liquidity even further:

https://www.nzx.com/announcements/355822

[nztx]

Reading between the lines in their 29 June announcement, I guess no mention of dividend must have been read to mean No Final Div, usually paid around early - mid July

But then out pops today's release at 4.55pm:

https://www.nzx.com/announcements/356104

"The board have resolved to declare a final dividend of 1.50 cents per share. The dividend will be payable on 29th July 2020. The ex dividend date will be 23rd July 2020 and record will be 24th July 2020."

[percy]

Been a long time since anyone has posted on this thread.
Like all finance companies high interest rates have affected their NIM and profit.
This caught my eye.It was from their 27th September presentation.GFL own Quest Insurance.
Financial Overview (Quest Insurance)
Review of March 2023
• Gross written premium up 30% to $39.3m
• Pre-tax Profit down 6%
• Cash on hand increased up 27% to $31.7m
• 5-year revenue average growth rate 51% per annum
• Strong solvency position at year end

Yesterday they announced their interim result.Not flash but was what I expected.

https://www.nzx.com/announcements/422642
Quest Insurance Group Limited (Quest) reported a pretax profit of $3.2m, up 27.1% on the prior period. The good result was driven by continuing the prior year’s premium growth momentum. Premiums were up $3.5m (+18.5%) for the period. The higher interest rates benefited investment income of $0.9m, up $0.7m on last year. Quest operating costs including direct costs were up $1.3m mainly due to investment in staff and IT.

Disc.I have a modest holding.

[Ferg]

Upcoming vote for Geneva Finance as to whether or not they move to the USX:
https://www.nzx.com/announcements/433323

And in other news they have shut down the loss making activities of Stellar Collections, debt litigation & debt factoring to focus on the core activities of lending and insurance. FY24 result was to expectation with a couple of one-offs negatively impacting NPAT for the year:
https://www.nzx.com/announcements/432076

Interesting to see insurance is jumping ahead of lending in leaps and bounds. I am picking 8c NPAT contribution just from insurance in FY25; FY24 was impacted by a one-off tax subvention payment to utilise tax losses from the business units being closed.

Add that to the other initiatives over the past 12 months and at 20c this is trading on a forecast P/E of under 2. Throw in a dividend policy of 35% and the forward yield also looks good.

[whatsup]

Upcoming vote for Geneva Finance as to whether or not they move to the USX:
https://www.nzx.com/announcements/433323

And in other news they have shut down the loss making activities of Stellar Collections and debt litigation to focus on the core activities of lending and insurance. FY24 result was to expectation with a couple of one-offs negatively impacting NPAT for the year:
https://www.nzx.com/announcements/432076

Interesting to see insurance is jumping ahead of lending in leaps and bounds. I am picking 8c NPAT contribution just from insurance in FY25; FY24 was impacted by a one-off tax subvention payment to utilise tax losses from the business units being closed.

Add that to the other initiatives over the past 12 months and at 20c this is trading on a forecast P/E of under 2. Throw in a dividend policy of 35% and the forward yield also looks good.

Agree BUT it will be listing on the " sports " board shortly which have few eyeballs and very little liquidity !

[Ferg]

Agree BUT it will be listing on the " sports " board shortly which have few eyeballs and very little liquidity !
Indeed - assuming the move is approved. Given liquidity is almost zero on the NZX it doesn't really change much....

[percy]

Indeed - assuming the move is approved. Given liquidity is almost zero on the NZX it doesn't really change much....

The upcoming shift from NZX to USX will not as you point out change GFL's liquidity..
However the announcement has created a great deal of liquidity,with the share price collapsing.
USX investors such as myself are certainly loading up the truck.
Clearing the decks of the two poor performing businesses ,cutting costs including NZX fees .should see GFL progress into a great little earner.
Your "PE of under 2 and paying a dividend" has me really excited.

[Rawz]

I went to check GFL out on Sharesies and there is a big sell only banner on it.

Suppose Sharesies don’t want to manage the unlisted bit

[percy]

I went to check GFL out on Sharesies and there is a big sell only banner on it.

Suppose Sharesies don’t want to manage the unlisted bit

A big thank you Sharesies.

[blackcap]

Don't go telling too many people Percy :)

[nztx]

Agree BUT it will be listing on the " sports " board shortly which have few eyeballs and very little liquidity !


just in time to replace another mob who called in the undertakers over there to finalise their ski slope sweep to the bottom off ASX ;)

[nztx]

Don't go telling too many people Percy :)


Are they short on dough to pay up for a lazy NZX deckchair or just getting a bit Frank & Francis about announcements on the ins & outs being too visible ? ;)

[Jaa]

You have to be suspicious of an announcement that states changing exchanges will save money without ever actually stating how much money they will save.

[percy]

JLG Just Life Group Ltd have just moved to USX from NZX.They also did not say how much they would save.I would guess both will save well in excess of $250,000.pa.
Same reasons JLG gave also apply to GFL.
Infrequent trading and low liquidity: With The Harvard Group and its associated
persons controlling over 80% of JLG shares, any trading of shares typically occurs in
very low volumes. Therefore the current NZX listing offers little advantage to
shareholders from a liquidity perspective.
• High compliance and governance costs: Maintaining the Company’s NZX listing incurs
substantial ongoing compliance and governance costs that can be significantly reduced
through delisting.

[Sideshow Bob]

Probably paywalled...

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/finance/shareholders-association-opposes-geneva-finance-delisting?utm_source=Digest&utm_medium=email

[percy]

Probably paywalled...

https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/finance/shareholders-association-opposes-geneva-finance-delisting?utm_source=Digest&utm_medium=email






I have voted for the resolutions.

[Jaa]

JLG Just Life Group Ltd have just moved to USX from NZX.They also did not say how much they would save.I would guess both will save well in excess of $250,000.pa.
Same reasons JLG gave also apply to GFL.
Infrequent trading and low liquidity: With The Harvard Group and its associated
persons controlling over 80% of JLG shares, any trading of shares typically occurs in
very low volumes. Therefore the current NZX listing offers little advantage to
shareholders from a liquidity perspective.
• High compliance and governance costs: Maintaining the Company’s NZX listing incurs
substantial ongoing compliance and governance costs that can be significantly reduced
through delisting.

Those costs are very valuable to small shareholders.

Literally you are paying for them to communicate with you and for a level of reassurance that nothing dodgy is going on. That and for increased exposure for the company which drives liquidity and the share price.

Without a $$ value it is hard to judge if those benefits are worth the cost.

[percy]

From today's annual report.
I always feel "comfortable" ie "well positioned" with positive outlooks.

"The Board remains positive that the strategic refocus will provide a clearer direction for
the lending business and as a result its performance should improve even under the
current economic conditions. Lastly, Quests continued growth prospects and enhanced
liquidity position provides a positive outlook for the coming year."

[Ferg]

It appears a couple of directors managed to 'pick the bottom' recently with on-market acquisitions:
https://www.nzx.com/companies/GFL/announcements

And the majority shareholder acquired about 1% of shares. [Edit: thanks Percy - I read that notice backwards!]

Fair point Jaa although I note that GFL have stated their intention to keep shareholders informed quarterly which is more than they currently do on the NZX. Also, in moving away from the NZX my reading between the lines in the GFL annual report is they will no longer have to comply with the diversity and ESG requirements per the noted exceptions to the NZX requirements. In their own words they would rather spend that time focussing on making money. At the end of the day the average shareholder wants dividends and returns, not feel good stuff.

[percy]

Federal added to their holding.
For this disclosure,—
(a) total number held in class: 46,507,267
(b) total in class: 72,935,275
(c) total percentage held in class: 63.77%
For last disclosure,—
(a) total number held in class: 45,707,267
(b) total in class: 72,935,275
(c) total percentage held in class: 62.67%
Details of transactions and events giving rise to relevant event
Disclosure is required for the transactions as a result of which (together or alone) result in
a movement of 1% or more in the substantial holding;
Date: 1 December 2020 to 1 July 2024
Nature of transactions: On Market Trades / Share Issue
Consideration: $275,894
Number of Shares: 800,000

[Ferg]

Thanks percy - I completely misread that announcement so I edited my post.

[percy]

At Geneva Finance Limited’s special meeting, held today, shareholders were asked to vote on 2
resolutions, which were supported by the Board.
As required by NZX Listing Rule 6.1, all voting was conducted by a poll.
The resolutions passed by shareholders were:
• Delisting from the NZX Main Board: That the delisting of the Company from the NZX Main
Board is approved and the directors of GFL are authorised to undertake all actions and enter into
any agreements and other documents necessary to give effect to this Resolution.
• List on the Unlisted Securities Exchange (USX): Subject to Resolution 1 being approved, that
the Company list on the Unlisted Securities Exchange and the directors are authorised to
undertake all actions and enter into any agreements and other documents necessary to give
effect to this Resolution.
Details of the total number of votes cast in person or by a proxy holder are:
Resolution For Against Abstain
Delisting from the NZX Main Board:
That the delisting of the Company from
the NZX Main Board is approved and the
directors of GFL are authorised to
undertake all actions and enter into any
agreements and other documents
necessary to give effect to this Resolution.
9,165,026
57.01%
6,912,053
42.99%
97
List on the Unlisted Securities
Exchange (USX): Subject to Resolution 1
being approved, that the Company list on
the Unlisted Securities Exchange and the
directors are authorised to undertake all
actions and enter into any agreements
and other documents necessary to give
effect to this Resolution.
55,851,877
89.18%
6,775,393
10.82%
7,923
Both resolutions passed.

NB.
15th July.Trading halt at close of business on NZX.
17th July.GFL delisted from NZX.
18t July GFL shares start trading on USX Unlisted Market.

[percy]

Been interesting watching GFL's trading the past few days before they delist and move to The Unlisted Market.
Some big volumes being traded.
Yet the buyers are not getting any.
Big seller has never put their shares on the market.
??????????????????????????????????
I guess a major broker is matching his sell client's orders with an undisclosed buyer.
I would expect better from NZX.
Most probably be more open on USX.

[percy]

Geneva Finance start trading on USX Unlisted market today.
This is their listing profile.
https://prod-trade.usx.co.nz/api/file/669820bfdc9e0482a73bf169.pdf

[blackcap]

Been interesting watching GFL's trading the past few days before they delist and move to The Unlisted Market.
Some big volumes being traded.
Yet the buyers are not getting any.
Big seller has never put their shares on the market.
??????????????????????????????????
I guess a major broker is matching his sell client's orders with an undisclosed buyer.
I would expect better from NZX.
Most probably be more open on USX.

That is standard practice Percy. If a broker has a large sell order, they will often match with a buyer from their own book. They then disclose the trades to the market. No point if you are a large seller by putting your stock up for everyone to see your hand. This is all well and good and within NZX rules. The USX will not be more open as the broker will still use the same tactics.

When you say "buyers are not getting any", that is slightly wrong. If a trade has occurred, there is a buyer and a seller, so obviously buyers are getting some.

All the broker on the NZX has to do is trade between the quotes. If you want some stock, you will have to bid up.

[percy]

That is standard practice Percy. If a broker has a large sell order, they will often match with a buyer from their own book. They then disclose the trades to the market. No point if you are a large seller by putting your stock up for everyone to see your hand. This is all well and good and within NZX rules. The USX will not be more open as the broker will still use the same tactics.
When you
say "buyers are not getting any", that is slightly wrong. If a trade has occurred, there is a buyer and a seller, so obviously buyers are getting some.

All the broker on the NZX has to do is trade between the quotes. If you want some stock, you will have to bid up.

None of "the disclosed" buyers got any.

[blackcap]

None of "the disclosed" buyers got any.

Probably because their bid prices were not high enough? If the broker does the deal between the quotes, then I have no problem with it.

[percy]

Probably because their bid prices were not high enough? If the broker does the deal between the quotes, then I have no problem with it.

I have little faith in NZX if they allow this.
What is the point of The Market.?
We may as well just deal solely with Jardens.
Luckily it seldom happens on USX.

[blackcap]

I have little faith in NZX if they allow this.
What is the point of The Market.?
We may as well just deal solely with Jardens.
Luckily it seldom happens on USX.

The NZX has allowed this since trading began. There is a very good reason. If you are a broker and have a client with a large parcel of shares to sell, (or buy) you don't want to show your hand by putting them all up for sale. I get that.

If you also have a buyer for this stock, then it makes sense for you the broker, to match the buys and sells. If you don't have a buyer, then you will have to sell them on market (if your client wants the stock sold).

This practice goes on on the USX as well, and I think it is more prevalent on the USX than on the NZX as a percentage of trades. (less brokers deal on the USX so this holds).

I would have some sympathy for your argument if the trades were crossed outside the quotes but if they are not, then I don't see what the issue is? If you want some stock, you need to bid for it. If the seller does not like your price, or is not motivated enough to sell to you, then its incumbent on you to bid higher. (that's why the NZX has the rule that crossings have to be completed between quotes).

[percy]

The NZX has allowed this since trading began. There is a very good reason. If you are a broker and have a client with a large parcel of shares to sell, (or buy) you don't want to show your hand by putting them all up for sale. I get that.

If you also have a buyer for this stock, then it makes sense for you the broker, to match the buys and sells. If you don't have a buyer, then you will have to sell them on market (if your client wants the stock sold).

This practice goes on on the USX as well, and I think it is more prevalent on the USX than on the NZX as a percentage of trades. (less brokers deal on the USX so this holds).

I would have some sympathy for your argument if the trades were crossed outside the quotes but if they are not, then I don't see what the issue is? If you want some stock, you need to bid for it. If the seller does not like your price, or is not motivated enough to sell to you, then its incumbent on you to bid higher. (that's why the NZX has the rule that crossings have to be completed between quotes).

I repet.It seldom happens on USX.
I have been honest and shown I am a buyer at that price.
Broker in my opinion is being dishonest not showing the price he will sell at.
Back room market is not an open honest market.
It has happened far too often on NZX when I have been the highest bidder for stock.
Had the seller shown his hand I would have had the opportunity to decide whether to buy or not.
In most cases I would have paid the price the shares were traded at in house.

[Oliver Mander]

I repet.It seldom happens on USX.
I have been honest and shown I am a buyer at that price.
Broker in my opinion is being dishonest not showing the price he will sell at.
Back room market is not an open honest market.
It has happened far too often on NZX when I have been the highest bidder for stock.
Had the seller shown his hand I would have had the opportunity to decide whether to buy or not.
In most cases I would have paid the price the shares were traded at in house.

Interesting discussion.
Percy, NZX has been concerned about the number of off-market trades for some time. They recently launched NZX Dark, which is a mechanism encouraging off-market trades matched within broker houses (as per blackcap's comment) to be brought into the wider market. It's anonymous (hence 'dark'), with bids/asks automatically matching at the mid-point. So, does not show up on market depth - but the trades themselves DO show up on the trading list. The idea is to get away from the "back room" dealing you refer to, so trades become transparent. The equivalent of NZX Dark also exists on the ASX, SGX, LSE etc - back-room dealing is not just an NZX issue.

In terms of whether or not it happens on USX, I suspect no-one really knows (except the USX market administrators). But as a wholesale investor market, one would expect a higher probability of off-market trades.

When you sign up to trade on USX, you're recognising the weaker investor protections that go with that market; as per their own disclaimer (emphasis is mine):

"USX itself is not a licensed financial product market. Unlisted is a financial product market that operates pursuant to an exemption from subpart 7 of Part 5 of the Financial Markets Conduct Act 2013 (the Act). Investors trading in securities quoted on Unlisted trade at their own risk and do not have the protections provided by Part 5 of the Financial Markets Conduct Act 2013, in relation to: insider trading, market manipulation, continuous disclosure, substantial holding disclosure, relevant interest disclosures, and the monitoring of market obligations by the Financial Markets Authority.

[blackcap]

In most cases I would have paid the price the shares were traded at in house.

would you have paid a higher price though?

Why should the broker deny their own client access to another of their clients stock just because rules. Back in my day, we were always told to look out for potential crossings.

As a broker you are only shooting yourself in the foot by not completing a crossing, and also not doing your own clients justice as they will miss out on the buy side.

I do understand your concerns about transparency, and hence Oliver's comments about dark markets are possibly a good thing going forward.

[percy]

Interesting discussion.
Percy, NZX has been concerned about the number of off-market trades for some time. They recently launched NZX Dark, which is a mechanism encouraging off-market trades matched within broker houses (as per blackcap's comment) to be brought into the wider market. It's anonymous (hence 'dark'), with bids/asks automatically matching at the mid-point. So, does not show up on market depth - but the trades themselves DO show up on the trading list. The idea is to get away from the "back room" dealing you refer to, so trades become transparent. The equivalent of NZX Dark also exists on the ASX, SGX, LSE etc - back-room dealing is not just an NZX issue.

In terms of whether or not it happens on USX, I suspect no-one really knows (except the USX market administrators). But as a wholesale investor market, one would expect a higher probability of off-market trades.

When you sign up to trade on USX, you're recognising the weaker investor protections that go with that market; as per their own disclaimer (emphasis is mine):

"USX itself is not a licensed financial product market. Unlisted is a financial product market that operates pursuant to an exemption from subpart 7 of Part 5 of the Financial Markets Conduct Act 2013 (the Act). Investors trading in securities quoted on Unlisted trade at their own risk and do not have the protections provided by Part 5 of the Financial Markets Conduct Act 2013, in relation to: insider trading, market manipulation, continuous disclosure, substantial holding disclosure, relevant interest disclosures, and the monitoring of market obligations by the Financial Markets Authority.

Oliver thank you for your reply.
However I have seldom seen off market trades on USX.[Yes I have seen it there]
It appears to be more honest market than NZX.
I have traded shares NZX,ASX and USX for some time [57 years],so have some idea of what I am talking about.
Whenever I have had over 500,000 shares to sell in a company Craigs have off loaded them in 50,000 lots.
OK they have not shown the volume I am selling,but they have always quoted the price.
I think NZX should at least insist on the sell price being shown.

[Oliver Mander]

Oliver thank you for your reply.
However I have seldom seen off market trades on USX.
It appears to be more honest market than NZX.
I have traded shares NZX,ASX and USX for some time [57 years],so have some idea of what I am talking about.
Whenever I have had over 500,000 shares to sell in a company Craigs have off loaded them in 50,000 lots.
OK they have not shown the volume I am selling,but they have always quoted the price.
I think NZX should at least insist on the sell price being shown.

If they go through NZX Dark, it shows the transacted price. Clearly, if its off-market, you don't see anything (same in any market).
USX - I think the issue is that no-one knows because no-one is obligated to tell anyone anything. At an objective level, it's hard to argue that that USX is a more transparent market than NZX - given their own disclaimer, the lack of oversight from thre FMA and the lack of enforcement actions. Please don't take this as questioning your experience - it's just an objective statement. The experience for individuals may be different.

[percy]

If they go through NZX Dark, it shows the transacted price. Clearly, if its off-market, you don't see anything (same in any market).
USX - I think the issue is that no-one knows because no-one is obligated to tell anyone anything. At an objective level, it's hard to argue that that USX is a more transparent market than NZX - given their own disclaimer, the lack of oversight from thre FMA and the lack of enforcement actions. Please don't take this as questioning your experience - it's just an objective statement. The experience for individuals may be different.

Yes I can only go by my experience.
USX has proved to be excellent for me.
An open honest market

ps.I am pleased NZSA is covering USX.
Good on you.

pps.Two out of three of my largest holdings are listed on USX.

[percy]

Geneva Finance is now on USX.
Anyone who missed selling before the move will be pleased to see a big buyer waiting to buy their shares.
BIDS
Quantity Price
500,000 0.2600

[whatsup]

Geneva Finance is now on USX.
Anyone who missed selling before the move will be pleased to see a big buyer waiting to buy their shares.
BIDS
Quantity Price
500,000 0.2600

Percy, Im pretty sure that thats the former or current Chairmans ( Hutchin ? ) finance company, I think that it/he owns over half + the shares atm !

[percy]

Percy, Im pretty sure that thats the former or current Chairmans ( Hutchin ? ) finance company, I think that it/he owns over half + the shares atm !

This is from NZ Companies Office.
It is out of date however.
Total Number of Shares:72935275 Extensive Shareholding:Yes
Shareholders in Allocation:
Allocation 1:46207267 shares (63.35%)

FEDERAL PACIFIC GROUP NOMINEES LIMITED
1st Fl, Bldg 5, 660-670 Great South Road, Ellerslie, Auckland, Null, 1542 , New Zealand
Allocation 2:2432933 shares (3.34%)

Peter Edward Francis &Deborah Anne Francis &Nigel Geoffrey Ledgard Burton
34 Courthouse Lane, Auckland, 1010 , New Zealand
Allocation 3:1403000 shares (1.92%)

Charles Paul Telford HUTCHISON
33b Leamy Way, Rd 2, Papakura, 2578 , New Zealand
Allocation 4:1146141 shares (1.57%)

David Gerard O`Connell &Vivienne Ellen O`Connell &Liston Trustee Services Ltd
11 Tudor Park Drive, Rd 1, Howick, 2571 , New Zealand
Allocation 5:1126005 shares (1.54%)

Lynn Barbara KING
8 Wingate Terrace, Newtown, Wellington, 6021 , New Zealand

Ronald Robin KING
8 Wingate Terrace, Newtown, Wellington, 6021 , New Zealand
Allocation 6:925201 shares (1.27%)

Lynn Barbara KING
8 Wingate Terrace, Newtown, Wellington, 6021 , New Zealand

Ronald Robin KING
8 Wingate Terrace, Newtown, Wellington, 6021 , New Zealand
Allocation 7:805286 shares (1.10%)

GENEVA FINANCE LIMITED
Level 3, 3 Te Kehu Way, Mt. Wellington, Mt Wellington, 1060 , New Zealand
Allocation 8:800000 shares (1.10%)

David William SMALE
100 Otarawairere Road, Ohope, Whakatane, 3121 , New Zealand

DW & EM Smale Partnership
100 Otarawairere Road, Ohope, Ohope, 3121 , New Zealand
Allocation 9:669888 shares (0.92%)

NEW ZEALAND DEPOSITORY NOMINEE LIMITED
Level 1, 11 Cable Street, Nzx Centre, Wellington, 6011 , New Zealand
Allocation 10:510000 shares (0.70%)

Brent David FAIRWEATHER
371 Queens Drive, Windsor, Invercargill, 9810 , New Zealand

Tony John WINSLOE
371 Queens Drive, Windsor, Invercargill, 9810 , New Zealand
Historic data for shareholdersShow History

Generated

[percy]

This is a more up to date sharehoders list.
GENEVA FINANCE LIMITED
SHAREHOLDER AND STATUTORY INFORMATION
Stock exchange listing
The Company's ordinary shares are listed on the New Zealand Stock Exchange.
Registered principal security holders at 19 June 2024
Rank Name Units
% of issued
capital
1 Federal Pacific Group Nominees Limited 46,207,267 63.08%
2 Peter Edward Francis & Viaduct Trustee Services (Francis) Limited 2,432,933 3.34%
3 Charles Paul Telford Hutchison & Gregory Rex Eden 1,403,000 1.92%
4 David Gerard O`Connell & Vivienne Ellen O`Connell & Liston Trustee Services Ltd 1,146,141 1.57%
5 Robin King & Lynn King 1,126,005 1.54%
6 Ronald Robin King & Lynn Barbara King and Robin & Lynn King Family Trust 925,201 1.27%
7 Geneva Finance Limited 805,286 1.10%
8 David W Smale & E M Smale <D W & E M Smale Partnership 800,000 1.10%
9 New Zealand Depository Nominee 634,918 0.86%
10 Austen Herbert Stewart Kyle 516,462 0.70%
11 Brent David Fairweather & Tony John Winsloe 510,000 0.69%
12 Clinton Garwin Hartley & Jillian Leah Hartley & Juliet Anna Moses 500,000 0.69%
13 John G Webber Limited 500,000 0.64%
14 Jack Wakelin & Margo Wakelin 464,701 0.62%
15 Suvira Rani Gupta 376,769 0.52%
16 Kenneth Young 357,144 0.49%
17 William Evans Mccready & Gillian Mccready & Lee Trustee Services Limited 353,406 0.48%
18 Forthbank Trustees Limited 338,926 0.46%
19 William Alexander A Cairns & Terence Stanley Nowland 338,926 0.46%
20 John Owen Young 299,306 0.41%
Spread of security holders at 19 June 2024
Range Number of shareholders Units
% of issued

[Joshuatree]

Great stuff! what's your average entry price Percy?

[percy]

Great stuff! what's your average entry price Percy?

28.5 cents per share..................