Nat/act/nzf 2023

[blackcap]

Disbelief NZF Associate Minister of Health looking at putting a 3 year freeze on tobacco tax when outside the cancelled Smokefree legislation, the increasing cost of cigarettes is biggest deterrent to people starting smoking, & continues to cause large numbers of smokers to quit.

Incredible & not only that but denying to RNZ she had looked at this until caught out by a leak showing she had signed off on a decision paper asking advice about exactly this.
Big trust issues for Casey Costello.

How bad is it, when you have the Associate Minister of Health actually putting the profits of the Tobacco industry which kills 5,000 people a year, 13 every day from smoking, above the health of NZ'ers.

Beyond comprehension a Minister could be so stupid, ignore all the empirical evidence, in 2024!

Or, is it a ruthlessness, they don't want more smokers to quit because they need the money from the tobacco excise tax to pay for tax cuts & election promises?

O stop being so sanctimonious. Do you know how much a packet of cigarettes costs these days? Its the poor that are disadvantaged the most and this causes poverty. For some people a cigarette is their only crutch. I am not saying we should encourage smoking, but the price and excise is ridiculous. People should be free to make up their own minds without governement interference.
I don't see any tax on sugar which kills far more people (diabetes and complications, heart disease etc) than smoking does these days. Stop being so self righteous.

[Bjauck]

O stop being so sanctimonious. Do you know how much a packet of cigarettes costs these days? Its the poor that are disadvantaged the most and this causes poverty. For some people a cigarette is their only crutch. I am not saying we should encourage smoking, but the price and excise is ridiculous. People should be free to make up their own minds without governement interference.
I don't see any tax on sugar which kills far more people (diabetes and complications, heart disease etc) than smoking does these days. Stop being so self righteous.

BAT. Big Tobacco. We see why the Coalition have scrapped Smokefree NZ now.

Give the poor a little bit of joy if they want a fag. They can’t afford a house these days. Gangs and crime are getting worse in poorer areas. The rich have the untaxed capital gains, let the poor have cheaper excise on a full tar unfiltered fag. Income earners will be hit with yet another tax hike to pay for the health costs and lack of a CGT. Dying early would be a blessing because it is easier than tacking the causes of poverty?

Nanny state should butt out. We are all free to read medical journals, understand them and make up our own minds.

[blackcap]

BAT. Big Tobacco. We see why the Coalition have scrapped Smokefree NZ now.

Give the poor a little bit of joy if they want a fag. They can’t afford a house these days. Gangs and crime are getting worse in poorer areas. The rich have the untaxed capital gains, let the poor have cheaper excise on a full tar unfiltered fag. Income earners will be hit with yet another tax hike to pay for the health costs and lack of a CGT. Dying early would be a blessing because it is easier than tacking the causes of poverty?

Nanny state should butt out. We are all free to read medical journals, understand them and make up our own minds.

That is not what I am saying. But for many the cost is prohibitive and really does cut into the budget at the expense of other items including looking after kids.

Why this big focus on tobacco, when there are other things that should really be tackled.

By the way, its not only a poor issue, smoking goes through all demographics, its the poor that do smoke that really feel it.

I don't buy the health costs argument associated with smoking, drinking possible costs a hell of a lot more.

[Bjauck]

From Blackcap: That is not what I am saying. But for many the cost is prohibitive and really does cut into the budget at the expense of other items including looking after kids.
A lot of things going on there. The question should be reframed. Why are housing and groceries so expensive in NZ? How can access to education be improved for the lower socio-economic groups? Governments on both left and right in NZ avoid tackling the bigger issues.

Why this big focus on tobacco, when there are other things that should really be tackled. I agree other issues, drugs, health etc. should not be ignored.

By the way, its not only a poor issue, smoking goes through all demographics, its the poor that do smoke that really feel it.
Many studies have shown poorer health outcomes for poorer socio-economic groups as the result of smoking prevalence. Smoking could be responsible for 1/3 of the worse outcomes for lower socio-economic groups. Interesting: https://www.otago.ac.nz/__data/asset...996-025021.pdf

I don't buy the health costs argument associated with smoking, drinking possible costs a hell of a lot more.Sure they both have a big health cost associated with them. I would favour a more limited access to alcohol too. Just because society does not tackle some other issues as seriously doesn’t mean tobacco should not be tackled either. That is politics for you.

[Ggcc]

BAT. Big Tobacco. We see why the Coalition have scrapped Smokefree NZ now.

Give the poor a little bit of joy if they want a fag. They can’t afford a house these days. Gangs and crime are getting worse in poorer areas. The rich have the untaxed capital gains, let the poor have cheaper excise on a full tar unfiltered fag. Income earners will be hit with yet another tax hike to pay for the health costs and lack of a CGT. Dying early would be a blessing because it is easier than tacking the causes of poverty?

Nanny state should butt out. We are all free to read medical journals, understand them and make up our own minds.

Interesting fact the majority of people who worked at BAT in Napier were not smokers. I used to support ASH and their way of thinking, until I saw how they got things so wrong in describing what BAT put into their cigarettes.

[Blue Skies]

O stop being so sanctimonious. Do you know how much a packet of cigarettes costs these days? Its the poor that are disadvantaged the most and this causes poverty. For some people a cigarette is their only crutch. I am not saying we should encourage smoking, but the price and excise is ridiculous. People should be free to make up their own minds without governement interference.
I don't see any tax on sugar which kills far more people (diabetes and complications, heart disease etc) than smoking does these days. Stop being so self righteous.

If sugar killed half of all its users, like tobacco does, we would have almost half the population dying each & every year!
There are currently about 350,000 people still smoking, if they don't quit - smoking will kill half of them & its entirely preventable.
Sugar does not kill anything like the same percentage of users as tobacco, where on earth did you get that idea from?

Sanctimonious! What do you think a HEALTH Minister's job is ? Being paid $350,000 a year plus perks, to sit in their Beehive office with dozens of support staff, & eat lunch & go home?


If you're a taxpayer, a very significant portion of the tax you pay, goes into funding our Health system.

The old argument people should be responsible for & free to make up their own minds about sabotaging their own health doesn't wash when they won't take responsibility for the resulting $2 billion per year other taxpayers will be paying for their healthcare under our free publicly funded Healthcare System. (and thats' not taking into account other costs like dying early, lost work productivity, economic impact on family )

You can't have a free taxpayer funded Healthcare System without some guard rails around trying to reduce people sabotaging their health, or reckless or irresponsible behaviour.

That aside, putting the cost of cigarettes right out of reach is a proven way of successfully motivating smokers to quit.

[mistaTea]

O stop being so sanctimonious. Do you know how much a packet of cigarettes costs these days? Its the poor that are disadvantaged the most and this causes poverty. For some people a cigarette is their only crutch. I am not saying we should encourage smoking, but the price and excise is ridiculous. People should be free to make up their own minds without governement interference.
I don't see any tax on sugar which kills far more people (diabetes and complications, heart disease etc) than smoking does these days. Stop being so self righteous.

Really interesting post BC.

A month or so back I purchased a pack of cigarettes. I have not been a 'smoker' for about 20 years I guess, but my dad still enjoys cigarettes, so on the rare occassion he makes the trek to Auckland I get a packet and enjoy a few cigarettes with him.

Anyway, a pack of 20 B&H cost me about $44. My jaw literally dropped, and the guy at the Dairy told me how lucky I was, because he was about to make the CPI adjustment the next day and they were going to go up another $2 or $3!

I think a lot of this gets back to making an effort to look at an issue from more than one angle (just like the talk around TOW). I just feel a lot of people leap to jumping up and down and decrying that the sky is falling before waiting to see what actually happens and after considering the issue from different perspectives. After all, the Associate Health Minister has only asked for some advice on the issue at this stage! So we can afford to take a more measured assessment.

If your sole focus is on health outcomes, then anything other than ever increasing punative measures against tobacco products is going to disappoint. And clearly tobacco smoke is unhealthy, increasing the chance of cancer and other ailments. That has been well researched, and the vast majoroty of adults who continue to purchase the product are well aware.

So that is one angle.

Some of the other things to consider are:

1. It has not been about recouping costs from smokers due to extra healthcare they need (on average) for a long time. The excise tax raised is around 4 to 5 times greater than even the most liberal accounting of 'costs'. That means the State is coercing adults away from buying a perfectly legal product. Which is the definition of Nanny State - and there is an argument that the State should not do this.
2. It continues to dispproportianately impact the poor. They form the highest percentage of smokers, and the cost of smokes is a large percentage of their take home pay. This comes at the expense of decent accomodation, clothing and even food for the kids. We (quite rightly) decry the levels of poverty in our country but then push these tobacco policies to the limit which actually works against our aim of reducing poverty.
3. From a non-smokers POV, you might ask why these people don't just quit. As it is literally crippling them financially. At first glance, a very reasonable question. However, consider this - a lot of familiies in NZ are doing it tougher than a lot of us really realise. These guys aren't planning date nights with their wife at a nice restaurant, upgrades to their car let along trips with the kids to Fiji. Fiji may as well be on the Moon. However, they can buy cigarettes. And they enjoy smoking tobacco as it is a small pleasure they can obtain that helps them get through living in difficult circumstances. It is a perspective we should consider much more before heaping on more costs on these families. Costs which add stress to already fragile families that are higher risk of domestic violence etc.
4. We are at diminishing returns with regards to excise tax anyway. The vast majority of people who were going to quit due to price sensitivity have already done so. The rest either continue to wear the cost or buy illicit tobacco. So the benefits of never ending tax increases are significantly reduced now relative to the costs of continuing down that path.
5. Gangs. Gangs are the only ones benefiting from the price increases now. There can be no doubt that the Tobacco tax policy has enriched gangs, providing another revenue stream for them. Enabling them to buy even fancier gear that helps glamourise their existence, making them an even more attractive prospect for our disadvantaged youth.

So, I do think there are many different angles one could coherently argue their case with regards to tobacco. It is not ridiculous in my view that the government would look to hit the pause button while getting advice on alternative approaches.